Resophonic Posted August 14, 2019 Posted August 14, 2019 Hoping someone here has had the neck off of an H-40 ASB "The Heritage " mandolin. It has an "F" prefix in the serial number, so I am assuming that it is a 1991 build. The mandolin is is very fine condition, with the exception of the neck heel lifting a bit, the owner wants it dealt with. Can I expect a dovetail neck to body connection? What kind of glue would have been used? Any guidance on where to drill a steam hole? I posed these questions straight to Heritage. The person that responded was on vacation but was willing to ask some of the employees when he got back, who had been there long enough to maybe know and answer my questions. He also suggested asking this forum and I am glad to have been made aware of this resource. Hoping there have been a few that have been there and done that. As stated, this mandolin is in very fine condition and I don't want to go into this project not knowing what I'll find.
TalismanRich Posted August 14, 2019 Posted August 14, 2019 You might try to get in touch with Aaron's Music Service. Aaron Cowles built mandolins for Gibson and although he has passed, Steve still runs the shop. I'm betting that Heritage built their mandolins the same way that Gibson did. Contact info is here. Aarons Music Service. Otherwise, you probably need to talk with either Jim Deurloo or Ren Wall at Heritage. They are the original guys, and still come in to the plant. They would have the historical info on how things were built then.
Resophonic Posted August 14, 2019 Author Posted August 14, 2019 Thanks for responding. I'm betting the Heritage mandolin is built like a Kalmazoo Gibson as well but the mandolin is in too nice of condition to experiment shoving steam needles into it on a location guess, assuming it IS dovetail construction. The Heritage person that responded to me is to be back from vacation some time end of this week. Said he would ask staff that would have been there when mandolins where still on their menu.
TalismanRich Posted August 14, 2019 Posted August 14, 2019 I think it was probably Aaron who built the mandolins for Heritage. He also built Jubal mandolins. His son, Steve, took over the business after Aaron passed in 2013. You might also check with Pete Moreno. He also worked with Heritage in the old days, and does repair work still. He's probably worked on a few over the years. Moreno's Guitar Clinic.
HANGAR18 Posted August 14, 2019 Posted August 14, 2019 Maybe talk to BrentRocks or Millennium Maestro too and see if they know a previous employee who might be able to assist with the repair.
High Flying Bird Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 Katie Flamm may be the best person to ask about this. She will know who to tell you to talk to. I will send you my contact information in a message on this forum so y'all can hook up.
HANGAR18 Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 6 hours ago, High Flying Bird said: Katie Flamm may be the best person to ask about this. She will know who to tell you to talk to. I will send you my contact information in a message on this forum so y'all can hook up. Thanks Ron!
Resophonic Posted August 15, 2019 Author Posted August 15, 2019 Thanks for the replies all, I appreciate the leads. I am under no pressure to move the mandolin work along and still waiting for the Heritage contact to return from vacation and quiz staff. Good to know there are other brains to pick!
Doug Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 This picture I took of Katie holding a Heritage mandolin that her father had built always makes me smile. You can see the pride in her face.
tulk1 Posted August 15, 2019 Posted August 15, 2019 20 hours ago, Resophonic said: Hoping someone here has had the neck off of an H-40 ASB "The Heritage " mandolin. It has an "F" prefix in the serial number, so I am assuming that it is a 1991 build. The mandolin is is very fine condition, with the exception of the neck heel lifting a bit, the owner wants it dealt with. Can I expect a dovetail neck to body connection? What kind of glue would have been used? Any guidance on where to drill a steam hole? I posed these questions straight to Heritage. The person that responded was on vacation but was willing to ask some of the employees when he got back, who had been there long enough to maybe know and answer my questions. He also suggested asking this forum and I am glad to have been made aware of this resource. Hoping there have been a few that have been there and done that. As stated, this mandolin is in very fine condition and I don't want to go into this project not knowing what I'll find. I have H-40 ASB, as well. Would love to see pics of yours. And, coincidentally, mine needs a neck reset, as well. Altho', honestly, I don't intend to have it done anytime soon. Plays very well as is. And sounds fantastic. Definitely from Gibs parts. And yes, Aaron Cowells built them for Heritage from left over parts. You have something sort of rare in the Heritage world. Welcome to a somewhat exclusive club! ....... ?
Resophonic Posted August 15, 2019 Author Posted August 15, 2019 Not my mandolin but I sure wouldn't turn my nose up at this one, very nicely built instrument. The Heritage guy, Mike, wanted images too, which I sent off just a bit ago. I am supposing that they didn't document their builds very well. Hopefully, they will respond back with the info I need. Nice image of Katie you posted Doug, she does seem quite proud of her fathers beautiful work.
High Flying Bird Posted August 16, 2019 Posted August 16, 2019 This is from Katie. It is not a dovetail and we always used wood glue on necks. I am not sure on why he would have to drill any holes. Personally, without seeing actual neck pictures, I would reglue and clamp. Sounds like it is just loose.
Resophonic Posted August 16, 2019 Author Posted August 16, 2019 Interesting, I thought for sure it must be a dovetail joint. Dowels then? A drilled hole would only be needed to inject steam, if I was going to disassemble a dovetail connection. That is why I am researching before any action is taken on this very nice instrument. The neck heel has lifted a bit but I get almost no movement at the joint with the strings loosened. I discussed just making the necessary bridge adjustments with the owner as the joint may have settled in this way and possibly remain stable but they where hoping I could close the heel gap. I am educating myself to weigh possible options on what to recommend to the owner. Neck removal is an invasive procedure and likely to force finish repair, at the least. I am still gathering information but plan to get the H-40 on the bench tomorrow for a closer look. The neck heel gap is open enough to probe for dowels and I can experiment with dry clamping to see if the gap can be closed. Thanks for contacting Katie....
tulk1 Posted August 16, 2019 Posted August 16, 2019 If you do get that neck off, will you post pics? Maybe describe how and what you found? Could be helpful in the future.
Resophonic Posted August 17, 2019 Author Posted August 17, 2019 Took a closer look at the H-40 today. Tried moderate clamping pressure and it didn't move the heel gap noticeably. The joint seems secure enough, doing a proper set up and leaving the neck alone is definitely a choice on the solution menu. I also cut a narrow strip of thin sheet metal to feel around down in the heel gap. The thin probe went in 3/4" when aligned straight down at the heel. That part of the neck heel appears not to be secured with the joint construction and likely why the heel has opened up. Far as I can tell, the end of the (tenon, dovetail?) felt mostly flat, like the butt end of a straight mortise and tenon joint. It's either that, or it is a dovetail with narrow end cut flat. The thin probe could be pushed along one side of the heel, down deeper into the joint. Seemed to be going at an angle, like a dovetail V but hard to tell with glue residue and without chipping more finish off at the neck heel/ body connection. High Flying Bird, would you mind asking Katie again if she knows what method of construction was used for the neck joint? She mentioned that it was not a dovetail but then did not elaborate on how it is put together.
deytookerjaabs Posted August 17, 2019 Posted August 17, 2019 You could call around a couple local clinics and ask a tech if they'll let ya X-Ray it for a small fee, that'll give you the answer.
Genericmusic Posted August 18, 2019 Posted August 18, 2019 You can purchase a cheap endoscope with camera, light and USB port for $10 - $20. Plug the USB into your phone of lap top and run the camera/light lead thru "f" hole toward the neck and examine it from the inside. That should tell you everything you need to know.
StephenK Posted August 18, 2019 Posted August 18, 2019 You should be in contact with Aaron's Music Store in Vicksburg, MI. I visited with Aaron several times when he was still with us. Here built all the Mandolines for Heritage. He had in his records all the Serial Numbers on how many of each was produced, jigs and scale drawings of each model. Look forward to all your updates. StephenK
Resophonic Posted August 18, 2019 Author Posted August 18, 2019 An X Ray would be real handy, not quite ready to go that rout until I have exhausted brains to pick. Can't imagine getting X Rays done would be an inexpensive approach but it would definitely reveal all. Don't need an endo scope to see the neck or tail block, you can see them rather easily shining a light in one F hole and looking through the other. It looks just like a Gibson neck block but you can't tell from there how the neck block and neck are machined to fit. Yes StephenK, Aaron's was suggested in the second post, I'll be contacting them this week if I don't get a definitive answer soon. Thanks all for the replies...
High Flying Bird Posted August 18, 2019 Posted August 18, 2019 From Katie: All I know is that Marv had mentioned that Heritage didn't use dovetail method, due to being sued by Gibson. All Heritage mandolins were left over Gibson parts. Therefore things needed to be slightly changed. I am pretty sure he stated that Heritage slotted the neck routed like an electric guitar. This is all I personally know. Other than Aaron did all the construction of mandolins and unfortunately he is no longer with us to ask.
Resophonic Posted August 19, 2019 Author Posted August 19, 2019 Thanks for contacting Katie and please thank Katie for sharing what she knows about the Heritage mandolin.
deytookerjaabs Posted August 19, 2019 Posted August 19, 2019 23 hours ago, Resophonic said: An X Ray would be real handy, not quite ready to go that rout until I have exhausted brains to pick. Can't imagine getting X Rays done would be an inexpensive approach but it would definitely reveal all. I don't know what the cost would be but my buddy in a group I play with is an administrator by day for a network of local clinics and he x-ray'd my foot for free when my toe was busted! I even have insurance, I just thought I'd take him up on the offer. I think it's very little overhead or cost for them to snap a pic but the waters get muddy/expensive when medical billing is involved. It might be a request so out of left field that if you talk to the right person they'll laugh and say "c'mon in." The worst they can do is give you the old bureaucratic "sorry sir we cannot accommodate such a request."
pressure Posted August 19, 2019 Posted August 19, 2019 First there was a lot of laughter then I was rejected when I asked to x-ray a Heritage Prospect. Your experience may vary.
TalismanRich Posted August 21, 2019 Posted August 21, 2019 On 8/19/2019 at 6:51 PM, pressure said: First there was a lot of laughter then I was rejected when I asked to x-ray a Heritage Prospect. Your experience may vary. If your guitar was old enough for Medicare, it probably would have gone through. Unfortunately, it's going to have to wait another 20 years or so!
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