What would you guys do?

[iim7v7im7]

Hi,

 

I am in the process of trying to make a decision regarding a replacement pickup for my Sweet 16, which is currently setup with a Heritage No. 3 Floating PU.  I posted a few days ago and a number of you made some suggestions (Thanks!).  But since then, I was made aware of another option by Ren back at Heritage.  Ren told me about the 4-Point HRW3 pick-up and that I could send the instrument back to Kalamazoo to have him modify it.  This of course involves routing a hole in the sound board.  As you can imagine, the thought of doing this makes me nervous for two reasons:

 

1) I am concerned about destroying the acoustic properties of the instrument

2) PU selection is a subjective business and this is a irreverible modification

 

Ren told me because of the 4-point method of mouting that the acoustic properties would be preserved. 

 

QUESTIONS:

Has anyone on this board had this mod done to their instrument or have this PU system in their instrument? 

Secondly, if I don't like the sound of the 4-point HRW3,, will I be able to try other humbuckers (e.g. Lollar, Fralin, Duncan etc.)?

 

OTHER CONSIDERATIONS:

After reading about the different floaters out their (Kent Armstrong, Benedetto, Buscarino and Fralin) I am uncertain about whether they will be much different.  Additionally, the cost of a new pickguard + new pickup + technician to install properly is about 3x the cost of having the mod I descibed above done by Ren.

 

Your thoughts are APPRECIATED!

 

Bob

[cod65]

I'm thinking that mebbe sending it back to Heritage is the best option in terms of 'surely they know what they are doing', and wouldn't be doing it if it were going to compromise anything about the guitar  ....

 

Also , if you look at mods, refinishes, etc in terms of any vintage instrument, it always seems like it doesnt subtract from the value of the instrument if it were done by the original co.---- for example G**** guitars of certain vintage might have been sent back to the factory for a refinish or repair or etc. - this generally seems more acceptable to the re-sale community ...

 

 

my 2 cents

 

 

cod

[fxdx99]

Sounds like a great guitar and I understand your concerns over the mods.  I don't have any experience with what you're considering, but maybe just go right to the source - ask Ren these questions and have him provide the answers.  I'd be as concerned as you - hope that maybe someone here can provide some feedback, too...  maybe even soundclips (although likely too much to hope for, since finding folks that have gone this method are probably far/few between).

 

Yeh, go right to Ren, express your concerns, then weigh the responses.  Maybe place the questions in light of a tone/sound you have in mind (more like Burrell, more like Pass, etc).

[Kuz]

Jim,

 

I had the exact switch (to 4 pt mount HRW) in my Sweet 16 and LOVE it!

 

Here is my take on your decision.

 

-if you like the over tone you have now, except want a little more output, or want/need better balance across all strings, in other words, YOU LOVE the current tone and don't want to deviate from it all- then you may want to consider another/better floating pickup

 

but

 

- if you want more output that is clearer but more low end for that Pat Metheny, G. Benson, Kenny Burrell, ect type of tone then get the HRW. It sounds GREAT and made a huge difference. I too was afraid of four small hole it the top, but it will not dampen the acoustic properties of the top. But the holes will be there.

 

FWIW, Kenny Burrell has sent back all his guitars to have the 4 point mounting for HRWs. When I hear a floater now vs a 4 pt humbucker, I think the floater sounds too muddy (not the cool rolled off treble, but muddy & not alive)

 

Check out the tone on Kenny Burrell's "Blue Muse" for the 4pt HRW tone!

 

Good luck.

[Gitfiddler]

As stated above, I'd have no worries about Ren installing the 4-point if it were my instrument.  I've yet to read a negative review about that set-up.

 

I would encourage you however, to ask as many questions of Ren as you can beforehand.  Ask about feedback issues, tonal changes from your current pickup arrangement, frequency changes (more/less midrange, etc.) and if there is a need for a modification to your tone pot values to bring out the tone you are looking for.  HRW's are hot paf style pickups that really bring out the natural tone of your instrument.  Be really clear with Ren what type of tone you are seeking and if he can advise of any possible side effects/benefits.

 

Keep us posted.  This is an mod very unique to Heritage.

[Kuz]

Here is clip on YouTube ( the audio isn't very good) but fast forward to 2:35 or so to hear his solo.

 

I think this is pretty accurate description of the 4pt Humbucker (HRW) tone. IMHO, a muffled floater would get lost in the mix.

 

[brentrocks]

I would not hesitate having Ren work on any of my Heritages

[cod65]

Here is clip on YouTube ( the audio isn't very good)

 

 

no link?

[Kuz]

no link?

 

Sorry. Now modified & saved with link. Look up at original post.

 

Here is how she looks with the 4 pt HRW.

_DSC1899-Edit2.jpg

_DSC1899-Edit2.jpg_thumb

[iim7v7im7]

Wow! So many responses, so quickly.  This be the place!

 

Thanks guys

 

WHat about the answer to my second question? Secondly, if I don't like the sound of the 4-point HRW3,, will I be able to try other humbuckers (e.g. Lollar, Fralin, Duncan etc.)?

 

Thanks,

 

Bob

[Kuz]

Wow! So many responses, so quickly.  This be the place!

 

Thanks guys

 

WHat about the answer to my second question? Secondly, if I don't like the sound of the 4-point HRW3,, will I be able to try other humbuckers (e.g. Lollar, Fralin, Duncan etc.)?

 

Thanks,

 

Bob

 

I would imagine so but ask Ren. In my opinion, I don't think you would ever change to another humbucker.

 

I think if you hated the HRW tone, I think you would hate all humbuckers in the sweet 16 and just like the tone of floater pickup better. Just my .02

[fxdx99]

Wow, John, your Sweet16 is beautiful!!  My advice to you is to sell it to me to finance your upcoming 'opportunity'...  ;D

[iim7v7im7]

Hi,

 

Here she is as is with the Floating Heritage No. 3.  I also have a tone pot installed.

 

:-)

 

Bob

 

http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/537/Sweet_16_Front_Close.jpg[/img]

[Kuz]

Wow, John, your Sweet16 is beautiful!!  My advice to you is to sell it to me to finance your upcoming 'opportunity'...  ;D

 

Well, at least it would be in the hands of someone who could play!

 

I actually have been inspired lately from many of you guys at the jam and have been working on my modes & jazz chords.

 

The funny story behind that guitar and my first 555 (both bought mint & used) is that some guy/collector was moving to Japan for a 3 year job contract and sold his whole collection to my dealer in Dayton. I hadn't been in the store for a couple years (was playing 100% acoustic umbrella drink duet gigs) and these were the only 2 he had left. I think he bought 8 pieces in all. The look like they had never been played!

 

Besides most of us have to PAY FOR OUR NEW GUITARS THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kuz]

Hi,

 

Here she is as is with the Floating Heritage No. 3.  I also have a tone pot installed.

 

:-)

 

Bob

 

http://www.tdpri.com/telephoto/data/537/Sweet_16_Front_Close.jpg[/img]

 

Hubba, Hubba, WOW!!!

[brentrocks]

Besides most of us have to PAY FOR OUR NEW GUITARS THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

i saw that comming

[big bob]

I don't mean any disrespect to ren, or the mod, but if it was mine there would be no way I would rout a hole in a beutiful guitar like that, as a matter of fact, I might order a 535, for amplified, and take the pu off the 16...

 

just my 2 cents.

[Kuz]

I don't mean any disrespect to ren, or the mod, but if it was mine there would be no way I would rout a hole in a beutiful guitar like that, as a matter of fact, I might order a 535, for amplified, and take the pu off the 16...

 

just my 2 cents.

 

I do honestly value your opinion, but they don't rout a hole in the top, they just drill four tiny holes- thus the 4 point floating designation.

 

But Bob, your point is well taken. There will be 4 small hole in the top that weren't there before. That is a choice only Jim can make.

[big bob]

No routing, that's different.... why would you mount on the top and not rout a sound hole...

[iim7v7im7]

Kuz,

 

Are you sure about that?  Why I ask is my Heritage No. 3 is about 0.44" in depth.  When you add the backing material between it and the soundboard, it is about 0.56" (with a cover) above the sound board.  Most standard Humbuckers are about 0.56" themselves.  If Ren is mounting the pickup ring (which is about 0.188" itself)on a 4-Point System above the sound board, the HRW either needs to be thinner than a standard HB or there needs to be an opening behind the ring to allow for the pick-up to project within.  Every photo that I have seen indicates that there are washers spacing the ring above the sound board.  Is this correct? Can you provide me with some measurements so I understand the configuration?

 

 

Thanks,

 

 

Bob

[Kuz]

I want to make a formal apology to everyone at HOC. I was raised that if you do something wrong you fess up and apologize. There is so much misinformation on the web and I hate when I add to the confusion out there.

 

What Bob & Bob were saying was making too much sense so I pulled the HRW off my sweet 16 and it is routed out on the top to fit the pickup. The 4 pt floating just refers to the 4 points the pickpup screws are touching the top- thus the theory to decrease the amount of contact touching the top and decrease the chances of lowering vibration of the top.

 

One thing I believe I am correct in saying is that the HRWs sound great!

 

I am now going to bow out of this thread with my tail between my legs and recommend that you call REN at Heritage for more info. I have done enough damage.

 

If it makes you feel any better I broke the high E string taking the pup out and have decided to completely resting my Sweet 16 for my penitence.

 

Here is another great clip of Vince Lewis playing an Eagle with a humbucker (an HRW I believe but don't hold me to that!

[iim7v7im7]

Hi,

 

No need to apologize at all.  Thank you for confirming my thoughts. 

 

I have reached out to both Vince Lewis and Henry Johnson regarding the 4-point HRW3 pick-up and they both really think that it is a marked improvement over a Heritage No. 3 floater.  They also felt that it did not impact the acoustic properties of their instruments. Jay Wolfe on the other hand was a bit more cautious in having the modification performed, which does put some caution in my mind because he has seen and heard lots of instruments.  I am really strongly considering having it done because of what the folks on this board and the two musicians have said.  Ren told me that if I end up not liking the 4-point HRW3 the mount ring will be compatible with a number of other HB pickups as a fall back position.

 

Bob

[yoslate]

Bob:

 

I just took delivery on a Super Eagle for which I ordered P-90's, rather than any sort of humbucker.  Apparently the mounting presented some logistical problems which were resolved by Ren.  The guitar sounds great and looks terrific!  I went to the Pilgrimage and talked with Ren about it.  Rest assured nobody knows more about guitar construction than Ren.  He understands problems, and he understands solutions, all from the perspective of both a player and master luthier.  You're in mighty good hands there!  Good luck!

[Gitfiddler]

Bob:

 

Rest assured nobody knows more about guitar construction than Ren.  He understands problems, and he understands solutions, all from the perspective of both a player and master luthier.  You're in mighty good hands there!  Good luck!

 

Nuff said! 8)

[Kuz]

I'd also look at the Heritage web site on the left side under HRW pickups. Their are at least 3 testimonies on switching from a floater to HRW on a Sweet 16.

 

And Jay tends to be conservative about any modification. If Kenny Burrell, Henry Johnson, & Vince Lewis that enough to switch, I'd listen.