My H575 - QC issues.

[LH575]

So tell me what you all think of this and what YOU would do.

 

I had a Custom H575 on order for quite a while and got it a couple months ago.  Its a great looking guitar, I posted pics of it here when I got it.  Its the almond burst with the Sweet 16 inlays.

 

Anyways, the guitar sounds good, solidly built, but had issues when I got it:

1. some blemishes in the the finish which needed to be buffed out

2. cracked pickguard

3. inlay looks like it might have a hairline crack in it.  I am not sure, I want Heritage to evaluate.

4. filemarks on the fretboard that can be easily smoothed out.

5. gold plating worn off of pickup.

6. strange buzz when certain notes are hit, sounds like a loose connection/screw somewhere, but I'm not sure.

 

So, I sent it back to Heritage (on my dime).  They buffed out the finish marks on the body, removed the buzz, then sent it back to me.  The other things were not addressed.  Pickguard still broken, inlay not addressed, pickup cover not replaced, filemarks still in fretboard.  There was no invoice of repairs completed, no paperwork from them at all.

 

I figure that it somehow got put in their "Done - return to customer" pile by mistake.

 

That's not it though....

 

Now, the bridge pickup is not working - maybe it was disconnected while fixing the "buzz".

 

I also found another QC issue, and this one doesn't look like it can be fixed.  The binding is very thin along the neck and you can see the what looks like the fret tangs thru the binding, in several spots the binding is starting to crack at these point, you can feel it with your fingernail.  You can see this tang on the majority of the frets.  You can feel a crack in the binding on about half of them.

 

See here:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/89805518@N00/...57612061845495/

 

I've contacted my dealer and we've yet to hear back from Heritage, they are on vacation until next week.

 

So tell me, what would you guys request be done about this?  What is reasonable?

 

Thanks!

575

[Steiner]

'Tis an interesting post.  From the deafening silence it appears to be unexpected.

 

The devil is in the details.  I've never seen a guitar that didn't require work from the factory.  Heritage is working to provide superior guitars at less than market value.  A new mahogany Gilson L4 will run you US$4600, chances are you'll experience the same or worse results.  I did.  That particular guitar has paid back extra as if it understood that it owed me more because of the aesthetics.  I'd wager that your Heritage will do the same.

 

I've found it better to treat flaws that I could myself and pay to correct the rest or chalk them up to "character".  At this point, it's going to be your perspective.  If you believe in the guitar, it will take you places you've never dreamed.  That said, you'll be far more satisfied viewing your guitar as unique.  In time the finish fades, the frets wear and the strings die but your ax (especially Heritages - I've found) will pay back in spades for the passion you pour in.

 

Cheers

[JohnCovach]

There have been some threads here on HOC about QC issues.  When such problems arise, it's almost always with new guitars, especially special-orders.  If you buy used, you accept the imperfections as part of the deal; expectations are often higher for new guitars, however.  As Steiner says, you probably just need to keep after them until you get the guitar to the point that you can accept it.

[yoslate]

As one who ordered a custom spec'd Super Eagle (fourteen months in the making), which has some "issues," albeit nothing quite like LH's, I've had to come to terms with them, some repairable, some better chalked up to "character" and the fact the guitar was built by actual human beings.  Steiner's response, I think, captures the alpha and omega of Heritage archtop ownership.  Some nearly flawless instruments have left Parson's Street, I'm sure; some with flaws more dire than yours, LH, have escaped as well.  Most fall somewhere dead center of the two extremes.  You'll have to find your own peace with the instrument...that or sell it.  But I think you'd be well-advised to take Steiner's posting to heart.  The flaws in my Super have either been rectified by my luthier, or are fast becoming invisible to me as I develop my relationship and history with the guitar.  And it is a Beauty!

 

Karma up, Steiner, for an insightful and articulate posting! 

[cosmikdebriis]

IMHO...

 

I'd send it back and express my "disappointment" that it wasn't sorted first time.

 

The pickup should be easy enough as should the pick guard.

 

The inlay and file marks don't sound that much to worry about :undecided:

 

I suppose you just have to decide whether you can live with the binding problem as fixing it likely to be one hell of a job ;D

 

Give the guys a second chance... :wink:

[yoslate]

I'd send it back and express my "disappointment" that it wasn't sorted first time.

 

Give the guys a second chance... :wink:

 

LH has already done that once, cosmic.  I think that's his point!  This is another good argument for finding a really good luthier within driving distance, if that's at all possible....

[Steiner]

As one who ordered a custom spec'd Super Eagle (fourteen months in the making), which has some "issues," albeit nothing quite like LH's, I've had to come to terms with them, some repairable, some better chalked up to "character" and the fact the guitar was built by actual human beings.  Steiner's response, I think, captures the alpha and omega of Heritage archtop ownership.  Some nearly flawless instruments have left Parson's Street, I'm sure; some with flaws more dire than yours, LH, have escaped as well.  Most fall somewhere dead center of the two extremes.  You'll have to find your own peace with the instrument...that or sell it.  But I think you'd be well-advised to take Steiner's posting to heart.  The flaws in my Super have either been rectified by my luthier, or are fast becoming invisible to me as I develop my relationship and history with the guitar.  And it is a Beauty!

 

Karma up, Steiner, for an insightful and articulate posting!   

 

Back at ya Yoslate!  You said it better than I.

 

Isn't the onus on the dealer to rectify this?  A good music store should have a luthier on retainer if not on staff that could rectify most of this (unless it's mail ordered).  I'd put pressure on them to fix the file marks, pickup and procure a replacement "finger rest" - I love that...  finger rest

 

Let us know what happens LH575.

[big bob]

The guys at heritage are human and make mistakes, I would call ren and send it back making sure you (the customer) talk with ren and form a conection. Renn will take care of you... that is what he does..

[cosmikdebriis]

LH has already done that once, cosmic.  I think that's his point!  This is another good argument for finding a really good luthier within driving distance, if that's at all possible....

 

I think you and I are on a misunderstanding...again... :-*

 

He has already sent the guitar back to Heritage and it has come back with some un rectified faults and also a new one, the pickup not working.

 

As such this must be something for Heritage to sort out ("a second chance"). I don't see why the dealer should be involved. Perhaps Heritage will ask the dealer or other appropriate person to sort it but for the moment the onus is on Heritage to provide a solution.

 

It is entirely possible (though perhaps not probable) that if HE gets someone else to sort the problems then Heritage could argue it is no longer their responsibility should something else arise. For instance... Should he get someone to remove the file marks and they accidentally chip the binding. Then why would Heritage have to repair that. He is then stuck with two people responsible for the "issues" with his guitar and the culpability is becoming more tenuous by the minute... I believe it is best to keep things simple and the manufacturer is responsible.

 

Ultimately, in time, then the guitar will become his own to look after and do as he sees fit. But for the moment, as he ordered the guitar brand new, then surely he deserves to get what he wanted and for the agreed price.

 

I think a quick phone call should suffice. I'm sure the guys will be only too pleased to help.

[SouthpawGuy]

So tell me what you all think of this and what YOU would do.

 

I had a Custom H575 on order for quite a while and got it a couple months ago.  Its a great looking guitar, I posted pics of it here when I got it.  Its the almond burst with the Sweet 16 inlays.

 

Anyways, the guitar sounds good, solidly built, but had issues when I got it:

1. some blemishes in the the finish which needed to be buffed out

2. cracked pickguard

3. inlay looks like it might have a hairline crack in it.  I am not sure, I want Heritage to evaluate.

4. filemarks on the fretboard that can be easily smoothed out.

5. gold plating worn off of pickup.

6. strange buzz when certain notes are hit, sounds like a loose connection/screw somewhere, but I'm not sure.

 

So, I sent it back to Heritage (on my dime).  They buffed out the finish marks on the body, removed the buzz, then sent it back to me.  The other things were not addressed.  Pickguard still broken, inlay not addressed, pickup cover not replaced, filemarks still in fretboard.  There was no invoice of repairs completed, no paperwork from them at all.

 

I figure that it somehow got put in their "Done - return to customer" pile by mistake.

 

That's not it though....

 

Now, the bridge pickup is not working - maybe it was disconnected while fixing the "buzz".

 

I also found another QC issue, and this one doesn't look like it can be fixed.  The binding is very thin along the neck and you can see the what looks like the fret tangs thru the binding, in several spots the binding is starting to crack at these point, you can feel it with your fingernail.  You can see this tang on the majority of the frets.  You can feel a crack in the binding on about half of them.

 

See here:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/89805518@N00/...57612061845495/

 

I've contacted my dealer and we've yet to hear back from Heritage, they are on vacation until next week.

 

So tell me, what would you guys request be done about this?  What is reasonable?

 

Thanks!

575

 

575 ...

 

The guitar has a years warranty doesn't it ?

 

I'm sure the guys at Heritage will honour that and sort out the problems.

 

If it were myself I would contact Ren directly to get the issues resolved.

 

I really do hope that things work out for you.

 

Regards.

[yoslate]

He has already sent the guitar back to Heritage and it has come back with some un rectified faults and also a new one, the pickup not working.

 

                                        ...exactly!    :wink:

[Dick Seacup]

It is always troubling, as a fan(atic) and aficionado of Heritage guitars, to read about quality issues on newly received, and especially special ordered, guitars. A part of me wants to put the guys at the factory up on pedestals and proclaim to everyone, "There!  There are the men who built the classics you all want, and they are still building them today!" That part of me doesn't want to acknowledge that they are, in fact, men after all and as such, subject to the same potential for mistakes and sub-optimal performance as I am.

 

Then there is the other part of me that realizes and accepts that these are humans, albeit with many lifetimes' worth of experience, building useful tools from wood and steel and plastic. That part of me still experiences some disappointment when I hear about these things, but understands that sometimes, most times, you don't get perfection.  Men are fallible, materials are inconsistent, procedures and processes can yield "edge cases."

 

I don't know how I would feel, were I in your shoes, LH. Probably I would be pretty upset, especially after getting the "fixed" guitar back with new problems on top of other issues that weren't addressed.  But, given my feelings about (and irrational attachment to) Heritage Guitar, I would probably send it back again for the major issues, and chalk the minor ones up to me having a unique piece of Kalamazoo history.

[111518]

LH575:

I bought a Rivera amp, used, that I had to send back for a repair.  Turned out the "repair" was really replacing a faulty component that had snuck into some of the amps.  The customer service guy was going to charge me for the service time and for return shipping...  I said, "fine, but every guitar player I meet or student I teach is going going to hear the story about how Rivera made me pay for their screw up, when they could hear the story about how Rivera made good."  He picked up the tab for the repair and return shipping --even though I was not the original owner and was not legally covered by a warranty. 

 

You have the same leverage --you've begun to apply it, intentionally or not, by posting here.  If you think the guitar has such quality issues that it you will never feel like you got the guitar you ordered, then take it to the dealer and demand your money back.  If you still want the guitar, make Heritage fix it at their expense.  Post and let us know what happens.  You are the kind of customer that they need; how you judge the experience of custom ordering a guitar from Heritage should matter to them.  No excuse for a shabby product, shabby service, and leaving the phone off the hook; you have every right to feel let down by a company to which you gave waiting time and a significant amount of money.  I don't think we are doing Heritage any favors by not saying as much.  When pressed, they seem to make good, which is maybe not as good as avoiding these cases (some are inevitable, of course) with better qc and attention to detail, but is critical if they are going to keep their reputation for craftsmanship and care.  We are all invested in that reputation. 

 

I wonder if this isn't a particular problem with custom-ordered instruments, which not only, as JC points out, have to meet high expectations, but also ironically short-circuit the level of quality control usually maintained by the dealer's right to refuse substandard instruments.  What dealer is going to delay getting his bucks, and what player is NOT going to be starstruck by an instrument that s/he has been dreaming about for months.  The factory needs to take a special responsibility for qc on these instruments. 

 

PS: The binding issue you describe is pretty common on Gibson and Heritage, I have guitars by both manufacturers with binding cracks as you describe.  In fairness to the manufacturers, I don't think the cracks are not always apparent when the guitar leaves the factory, but emerge as moisture or temperature expands/contracts the fretboard.  As I understand it, the cracks and unevenness are an irksome but not unusual product of the process by which these bound fretboard guitars are fretted and then the binding is scraped/shaped.  This is probably a "deal beaker" issue ...if you can't live with it, you should return the guitar. 

 

My 2 cents, of course. 

[chico]

I second the notion put forth to call Ren, deal directly w/him on all the issues.  And, being under warranty, I'm sure you can get the 2-3 specific things you mentioned that weren't taken care of. 

 

Notwithstanding your specific problems (and ones that weren't taken care of first time), I think that a relationship with a Heritage guitar long-term will mean taking it the shop from time to time for adjustments/corrections.  I'm lucky I live within driving range and have relatives in the area of Kzoo to facilitate that.

 

Hang in there, and stay on top of it.  You have a claim on the pickguard, pickup.

 

Ren will take care of it, if my experiences are any indication.

[LH575]

Thanks for the replies, guys!  Keep them coming!

 

All the issues with it, except one, are easily corrected, including the fretboard tool marks - a little sandpaper and they'll come out.

 

The only issue that can't be fixed, as far as I can see, is the fretboard binding.  We'll see what the Heritage boys say, but in my eyes the binding was just done incorrectly.  I've never seen another guitar with these fret tang lines coming thru and splitting the binding.  Can you say 2nd?

 

I have 157 and a 555, they each have little things with them, but nothing like splitting binding.

 

Anyways, keep the opinions coming!

 

Thanks again!

 

575

[Thundersteel]

The only issue that can't be fixed, as far as I can see, is the fretboard binding.  We'll see what the Heritage boys say, but in my eyes the binding was just done incorrectly.

 

My guess is the binding cracks are merely a natural occurrence. The wood expands/contracts at different rates than the metal frets do; hence the cracks. My Les Paul has had them for years--nothing to worry about!

 

As a side note, I had to send my H157 back to Heritage--twice--to get everything rectified to my satisfaction. Like in your situation, they only fixed half the problems the first time. Only after I talked to Jay and Lane did they finally get it right.

 

Good luck!

[JohnCovach]

This is an aside and not of any help with the problem being discussed here, but I'll come back to the point I make whenever these kinds of qc problems arise: Heritage should not be taking custom orders.

 

Those who have placed custom orders and gotten great guitars are very fortunate and I don't want to take anything away from that.  But as mentioned above, a custom order puts the customer and the dealer in a funny position with regard to the manufacturer.  If you go to Jay's (or another well-stocked Heritage dealer) and you want a new 150, he can show you many guitars, in many colors with different pickup configurations.  You can buy the guitar you want and if there's a problem he can either remedy it or give you your money back.  Any problems with the actual guitars are between the dealer and the manufacturer; the customer can buy what suits him/her or not.  That's one important reason why manufacturers choose to have dealers--it insulates them from direct contact with individual customers.  Those who do have direct contact figure the expense of such services into their budget and it is a part of the price of every guitar they sell.

 

The only way it seems feasible for Heritage to take such custom orders is to charge extra for it--enough extra that they can afford to deal with the kinds of problems that often arise with such orders (for any builder, not just Heritage).  But if I were them (which I'm not), I'd stay out of the custom-order business entirely.

[cosmikdebriis]

Heritage should not be taking custom orders.

 

That's one important reason why manufacturers choose to have dealers--it insulates them from direct contact with individual customers.

 

The only way it seems feasible for Heritage to take such custom orders is to charge extra for it--enough extra that they can afford to deal with the kinds of problems that often arise with such orders (for any builder, not just Heritage).  But if I were them (which I'm not), I'd stay out of the custom-order business entirely.

 

Interesting points indeed...

 

I'm not sure what percentage of their business custom orders are or whether they could survive without them?

 

Of course one of the attractions of Heritage is being able to have a custom guitar, built by experts. These are premium instruments and if you choose to put yourself in that end of the market then it is only to be expected that your customers will expect a premium service.

 

The faults listed though have no direct relation to the "custom" part of the order and I feel the problems should have been discovered BEFORE the guitar left Parsons St. It would have been far cheaper to rectify this and much less damaging to their reputation with both customer and dealer if they had checked it properly.

 

Maybe, as you say, there is an inherent extra cost here. Or, to look at it from another angle. To save a few $ by not checking the instruments properly before they leave the factory is a false economy.

 

Presumably the dealer is also making some money from this transaction, so there is an argument that he/she should have checked the instrument before it was handed over to the customer. The "issues" could then have been sorted out between him/her and Heritage with much less controversy and ultimately less damage to either of their reputations.

 

I'd like to as LH a question... Would you rather have waited an extra...say... month for your guitar and got it without the "issues"

 

In brief... :wink:

 

The manufacturer should never have let the guitar leave the factory in that condition... They are culpable.

 

The Dealer should never have let the guitar get to the customer in that condition... They are less culpable.

 

The customer is entitled to get what he paid for. He's entirely innocent.

[LH575]

Lot of good opinions here. Thanks all!  I'm not going to make any decisions about anything until I hear back from K'Zoo.

 

Cosmic - to answer your question...

 

Each time I had contact with the dealer or Heritage, my last statement was always "No rush, take as much time as you need." or something similar.  Would I have waited?  Of course!  It's annoying for both ends - seller and buyer when the final product is not 100%.  I think it was a 14 month or so wait.  Another year would have been fine with me.  I have enough guitars in the meantime.  Another year still would be cool if thats what it took to repair it to 100%.

 

It'll work out somehow.

 

L

[brentrocks]

Ren told me if anybody ever had issues w/ one of their Heritages to call him and he would make it right

[JohnCovach]

The faults listed though have no direct relation to the "custom" part of the order and I feel the problems should have been discovered BEFORE the guitar left Parsons St. It would have been far cheaper to rectify this and much less damaging to their reputation with both customer and dealer if they had checked it properly.

 

Maybe, as you say, there is an inherent extra cost here. Or, to look at it from another angle. To save a few $ by not checking the instruments properly before they leave the factory is a false economy.

 

Presumably the dealer is also making some money from this transaction, so there is an argument that he/she should have checked the instrument before it was handed over to the customer. The "issues" could then have been sorted out between him/her and Heritage with much less controversy and ultimately less damage to either of their reputations.

 

I agree entirely.  Where the "custom" dimension enters is as follows: if this were a 150 that was already in the store, the customer could reject it and choose something else.  The dealer could send the guitar back for credit to the manufacturer, who then chooses how to make something viable out of the guitar (this is basically the "refurb" procedure that is widely used by many companies).  But because this is a "special" guitar, there is no attractive option to choose something else.  The options are: 1) keep the guitar, 2) fix the guitar, 3) build an entirely new guitar, or 4) return the guitar for a refund.

 

Now here's the one spot in this where I might have something pragmatic to contribute:

 

If you can't accept the guitar, send it back to Heritage and ask for full credit towards another already-built Heritage guitar of your choice--one that you can inspect and play before you accept it but not a custom order.  I can guarantee you that will get their full attention.

 

BTW, Ren is a great guy, as many here can attest, but he's only one guy and can only do so much.  I'm sure once they get properly focused on the problem, the Heritage guys will make it right.

[tulk1]

Has anyone noticed that most of the QC issues brought up are with the Hollow Bodies? We rarely hear about these types of issues with the semi and solid body guitars. Well, I don't recall as many, anyway.

[es125luv]

I will chime in here. EVERY Heritage I have owned has either had one or more of the following:

 

• [li]crooked carved neck heel bottoms[/li]
  [li]cracking varnish around neck heel[/li]
  [li]mis-aligned tuning machines...  >[/li]
  [li]cracks in the neck binding[/li]
  [li]poorly placed pickup mounting rings[/li]
  [li]proprietary pickguard mounting holes[/li]
  

 

But none of this has ever caused any playability issues for me and I have done side-by-side comparisions with similar guitars that cost a LOT more and the tone and feel of the Heritages WINS. Simple pickup changes bring DRASTIC improvements, although I SWEAR I like those damn Schallers in my gold 150cm!

 

I do agree with the OP that there is not really an excuse for things similar to what I have listed above (in my case, the super crooked tuners just KILLS me) but I have a lot of pride in this little company and take a lot of this with a grain of sand.

 

Only one out of my eight Heritages (new photos coming very soon) was bought new, and my used Heritages were mostly a STEAL used. I have a great collection of playable tone monsters from a company that in reality does have a questionable future. I think that there may be some slight stress in the shop over there as they try to produce, fullfill orders and find more direction.

 

I simply am proud to own them but do understand the OP's issues with a custom order like that, although I am sure a call with Ren would solve those issues.

 

None of us want Heritage to get much larger but they could do with some sales management and a classy SALES campaign. I say, get a sharp sales-orientated guy in there and mimic how Collings sells. This may get some extra cash in the bank to release some stress in the shop and get the morale up.

 

Let's face it, the H150's and 535's sell themselves, and with the history of the company, one would think of it as a "no-brainer".

 

 

OP, I am sure Ren can make it right for you. Owning a guitar that has "The Heritage" on the headstock will separate you from the rest. There is the great story to tell as well when strangers ask you- "What is that guitar?". ;D

 

Now I will soon be off to find a Millenium or buy that damned cherry red H157 from Eddie's... and the pickup mounting rings are crooked on her as well

 

I do not buy Heritages because they are perfect, I buy them because they are Heritages and there is just something about each one I have owned that has a unique character that simply cannot be explained.

[Thundersteel]

the super crooked tuners just KILLS me)

 

I agree. There were many guitars I was interested in buying, until I saw the obviously crooked tuners. How hard is it to line them up? Don't they use a template?

 

I've seen plenty of crooked/off-center inlays as well. Could those little quirks be improved? Sure--but all those minor imperfections just tell me that humans, not machines, have built the instrument.

[JeffB]

#1: I feel the problems should have been discovered BEFORE the guitar left Parsons St. It would have been far cheaper to rectify this and much less damaging to their reputation with both customer and dealer if they had checked it properly.

 

 

 

#2: Presumably the dealer is also making some money from this transaction, so there is an argument that he/she should have checked the instrument before it was handed over to the customer. The "issues" could then have been sorted out between him/her and Heritage with much less controversy and ultimately less damage to either of their reputations.

 

 

 

#3: The manufacturer should never have let the guitar leave the factory in that condition... They are culpable.

 

#4: The Dealer should never have let the guitar get to the customer in that condition... They are less culpable.

 

#5:The customer is entitled to get what he paid for. He's entirely innocent.

 

#1 and #3 Totally agree

 

#2 and #4 We seldom open a box for a custom ordered guitar.  Mostly because its the customer's wishes. Its theirs, they conceived the ideas and agonized over colour, and appointments.

We let them know when its on its way and when it arrives. The privilege is all theirs and we enjoy the unrapping ceremony as much as they do.

Some times, rarely, they ask us to open it and check its to their spec's and search out any flaw's.

If we find any thing wrong they still have to see it and either accept or reject it.

 

The customer commissioned the work. They have to sign off on it. They have to be kept in the loop at every stage. Its theirs.

If the customer lives in another state, chances are we will never see the guitar. It will be shipped direct to them from the manufacturer or wholesaler. It will have been checked by the wholesaler.

If the out of state customer finds fault it is then sent to a reputable luthier  to be assessed and repaired. The bill is sent to the wholesaler and then, as far as I know, the manufacturer.

I personally wont accept responsibility for anyone else's shoddy workmanship. I didnt as a carpenter on multistory buildings and other projects and I sure as shit wont as a sales assistant.

If I built the guitar, Id be all over it.

 

#5 Agree 100%

 

 

Sorry if I came off a bit grumpy Had a $15au dollar tuner thrown at me today cause it didnt work.( I had no part in the manufacture of this tuner)

Irate customer: "you sold me a piece of shit tuner, it doesnt f****** work"  leans back and throws. Good straight pitch. Aussie fast bowler.

Mild manner sales guy: (rubbing forehead resisting urge to smack irate customer) " No, you bought a piece of shit tuner. I wanted to sell you the good $30 or $50 tuner."

He threatened more violence on me and the store.

We have his details in our data base. Moron. I wouldve just given him another anyway. Now I have to stalk him and hunt him down in my own time as well.

 

Sorry for the hijack. I feel better now :angel: