Yet another nitro finish question . . .

[peacemaker]

I'm (still) new to nitro finish care and I'm sure I don't understand the chemistry behind the rubber on guitar stands wrecking a finish . . . and if you're a chemist with a hankering to indoctrinate us . . .

 

So, a capo used for a song or two and taken off will not damage the nitro. I'm assuming that the guitar stand-induced nitro burns are caused by leaving a guitar in the stand for an extended time.

 

Let's say for instance that I played at a church and didn't bring a stand. Let's say that I used one provided by the church and it was in the stand for less than an hour I guess while the pastor taught . . . just how paranoid do I need to be about damaging this finish? I was sitting there during the sermon looking at my guitar on the stage (which was actually MORE distracting to me than if there had been a nude Victoria's Secret model sitting there ) thinking "Holy crap, if that finish is melting into that stand right now . . ." while my blood pressure rose and I wondered just how disruptive it would be for me to crawl up there and pull it off the stage . . .

[tulk1]

No expert here at all. Pure speculation. But I would have to reason out that if the nitro had cured, 1 hr on a stand is not going to burn the finish. What we've see most are guitars that are hung on walls. The downward pressure helps to create the heat that messes with the finish. It would be the same on a stand, but to a much lesser degree, as the weight of the guitar leaning backwards is much less than one hanging on a wall. An hour a week on a reactive stand should not burn that finish.

[111518]

I agree with Tulk --in my experience these reactions take time: like leaving a cord in a case in contact with a guitar for weeks or months, or a guitar hanging in a store (or music room) for months.

 

An easy insurance policy would be to keep a 2 buck cleaning cloth in your case, and drap it over the yoke of any stand that you weren't sure about. Always a good thing to have on hand anyway.

[TalismanRich]

Ok, I'm one of the geaky guys that majored in chemistry. What do you want to know?

 

Things you want to avoid with a nitrocellulose finish:

 

Nail polish - acetone is great solvent for NC. Also MEK etc. Anything with Ketones listed is BAD!

Alcohol (rubbing or drinking) - They are great co-solvents for NC resins.

Colognes and hairspray - Again alcohols are used extensively. Let the girls be charmed by your music, not your use of Axe or Old Spice! Hairspray is usually a Polyvinyl acetate polymer (see below!) dissolved in stuff like ethanol and dimethylether.

 

Vinyl - This is where most of the issue with guitar stands and hangers come from. Between the vinyl, the chlorine (PVC is polyvinyl chloride) and the plasticizers (phthalates) used, it can permanently soften a guitar finish. This includes the backs of some guitar straps!!!! That's why most are either leather or polyester/polypropylene fabric. I also avoid latex, or anything that will seal out air. That helps to concentrate anything that comes in contact with the finish. NOTE: Plasticizers can be fugitive, which means they can migrate. You can't use cotton with a vinyl rubber stand and make it good!

 

Neoprene rubber tubing - Neoprene is Dupont's trade name for polychloroprene (there's that nasty word again...)

 

Body oils! - Yup, your sweaty, greasy, clammy hands can damage your instrument. Armpits can be especially bad. You often see the finish dulled on the upper part where it tucks under the arm. That's why you want to wipe down your guitar after you use it.

 

Many hand and body lotions can soften the finish as well.

 

Good guitar stands should not dissolve the finish. Most these days use Velveteen rubber which is supposed to be safe for nitro. They certainly won't dissolve the finish in an hour or two.

 

BTW, Nitrocellulose is very susceptible to cracking when subjected to fast temperature changes. This can be mitigated somewhat through the correct formulation! Especially thick films are the most susceptible.

[111518]

NOTE: Plasticizers can be fugitive, which means they can migrate. You can't use cotton with a vinyl rubber stand and make it good!

 

I stand corrected. Thanks Rich ... I'm constantly impressed with the range of expertise here: learn new stuff all the time.

[chico]

Ok, I'm one of the geaky guys that majored in chemistry. What do you want to know?

 

Things you want to avoid with a nitrocellulose finish:

 

Nail polish - acetone is great solvent for NC. Also MEK etc. Anything with Ketones listed is BAD!

Alcohol (rubbing or drinking) - They are great co-solvents for NC resins.

Colognes and hairspray - Again alcohols are used extensively. Let the girls be charmed by your music, not your use of Axe or Old Spice! Hairspray is usually a Polyvinyl acetate polymer (see below!) dissolved in stuff like ethanol and dimethylether.

 

Vinyl - This is where most of the issue with guitar stands and hangers come from. Between the vinyl, the chlorine (PVC is polyvinyl chloride) and the plasticizers (phthalates) used, it can permanently soften a guitar finish. This includes the backs of some guitar straps!!!! That's why most are either leather or polyester/polypropylene fabric. I also avoid latex, or anything that will seal out air. That helps to concentrate anything that comes in contact with the finish. NOTE: Plasticizers can be fugitive, which means they can migrate. You can't use cotton with a vinyl rubber stand and make it good!

 

Neoprene rubber tubing - Neoprene is Dupont's trade name for polychloroprene (there's that nasty word again...)

 

Body oils! - Yup, your sweaty, greasy, clammy hands can damage your instrument. Armpits can be especially bad. You often see the finish dulled on the upper part where it tucks under the arm. That's why you want to wipe down your guitar after you use it.

 

Many hand and body lotions can soften the finish as well.

 

Good guitar stands should not dissolve the finish. Most these days use Velveteen rubber which is supposed to be safe for nitro. They certainly won't dissolve the finish in an hour or two.

 

BTW, Nitrocellulose is very susceptible to cracking when subjected to fast temperature changes. This can be mitigated somewhat through the correct formulation! Especially thick films are the most susceptible.

 

What about DEET, the active ingredient in Off and other mosquito repellents? I've been told not to bring those nitro finished guitars to campfire jams, etc.

 

???

[tbonesullivan]

Insect sprays have alcohol in them and other substances that can soften nitro. I've heard stories about outdoor gigs + guitar = gummy sticky finish.

 

Thankfully I have a bunch of guitars with polymer finishes, which are comparatively indestructable.

 

Also, nitrocellulose lacquer NEVER cures, which is why it is so easily damaged by solvents. It is simply dry, like mud bricks. On the plus side, this makes doing finish repairs easy as heck. On the downside, it's easy to return it to a gooey state.

 

I got some lacquer touch up stuff and a micromesh set for removing some rack rash on two nitro guitars, and some chips/dents on a 3rd. Finally finished them up.

[chico]

Insect sprays have alcohol in them and other substances that can soften nitro. I've heard stories about outdoor gigs + guitar = gummy sticky finish.

 

Thankfully I have a bunch of guitars with polymer finishes, which are comparatively indestructable.

 

Also, nitrocellulose lacquer NEVER cures, which is why it is so easily damaged by solvents. It is simply dry, like mud bricks. On the plus side, this makes doing finish repairs easy as heck. On the downside, it's easy to return it to a gooey state.

 

I got some lacquer touch up stuff and a micromesh set for removing some rack rash on two nitro guitars, and some chips/dents on a 3rd. Finally finished them up.

 

 

Cool, I would love to see pics of your handiwork when you get time.

 

Yeah, agreed on the poly finishes for the campfire jams.

[peteraltongreen]

Hi Peacemaker,

I've seen the results of extended nitro/poly contact. If I had my camera handy,I'd show you my '53 Gibson L4 CC,with the melted finish lines.Answer....Just carry a couple of clean dusters in your guitar case,and when an alien guitar stand appears,cover the contact points with the duster,folded double thickness to be sure .Don't panic !

Peter Alton Green ( U.K. )

[smurph1]

Ok, I'm one of the geaky guys that majored in chemistry. What do you want to know?

 

Things you want to avoid with a nitrocellulose finish:

 

Nail polish - acetone is great solvent for NC. Also MEK etc. Anything with Ketones listed is BAD!

Alcohol (rubbing or drinking) - They are great co-solvents for NC resins.

Colognes and hairspray - Again alcohols are used extensively. Let the girls be charmed by your music, not your use of Axe or Old Spice! Hairspray is usually a Polyvinyl acetate polymer (see below!) dissolved in stuff like ethanol and dimethylether.

 

Vinyl - This is where most of the issue with guitar stands and hangers come from. Between the vinyl, the chlorine (PVC is polyvinyl chloride) and the plasticizers (phthalates) used, it can permanently soften a guitar finish. This includes the backs of some guitar straps!!!! That's why most are either leather or polyester/polypropylene fabric. I also avoid latex, or anything that will seal out air. That helps to concentrate anything that comes in contact with the finish. NOTE: Plasticizers can be fugitive, which means they can migrate. You can't use cotton with a vinyl rubber stand and make it good!

 

Neoprene rubber tubing - Neoprene is Dupont's trade name for polychloroprene (there's that nasty word again...)

 

Body oils! - Yup, your sweaty, greasy, clammy hands can damage your instrument. Armpits can be especially bad. You often see the finish dulled on the upper part where it tucks under the arm. That's why you want to wipe down your guitar after you use it.

 

Many hand and body lotions can soften the finish as well.

 

Good guitar stands should not dissolve the finish. Most these days use Velveteen rubber which is supposed to be safe for nitro. They certainly won't dissolve the finish in an hour or two.

 

BTW, Nitrocellulose is very susceptible to cracking when subjected to fast temperature changes. This can be mitigated somewhat through the correct formulation! Especially thick films are the most susceptible.

Cool stuff..good to know..

[peacemaker]

I'm constantly impressed with the range of expertise here: learn new stuff all the time.

 

. . . as am I!! Thanks Talisman and everybody!

 

Hi Peacemaker,

I've seen the results of extended nitro/poly contact. If I had my camera handy,I'd show you my '53 Gibson L4 CC,with the melted finish lines.Answer....Just carry a couple of clean dusters in your guitar case,and when an alien guitar stand appears,cover the contact points with the duster,folded double thickness to be sure .Don't panic !

Peter Alton Green ( U.K. )

 

Good advice, man! Thanks! Now, as for the not panicking part . . . I'll see what I can do about that

[Thundersteel]

I had a guitar stand, unfortunately can't remember the brand, but I had my LP and SG sit in it overnight, and they both got "burned."

 

I promptly returned the stand to the music store the next day. I told the salesman what happened. He replied they never had a problem with them, and that's what most of their guitars sit on when on display. I looked what was currently on them--cheap, import guitars with a real thick finish--I'm guessing it wasn't nitro!