Heritage vs. Gibson...Any Objective Comparisons?

[FredZepp]

Thanks, Katie for giving us some insight to the inner workings at Parsons St.

 

It sounds like it is a group effort, just as it was to a degree in Gibsons golden age, and ... as we would wish it to be and remain for all time.

 

A fantastic group of people are assembled in the Heritage plant and that is a large part of our appreciation for it.

[Kuz]

Also, you sell many of the employees short at Gibson if you think that just because they are performing a small part of an overall process that they don't take pride in what they do and how it will affect the final result. Equal arguments could be made for the pros and cons of both large assembly line processes and smaller boutique type processes. Just take a look at Katie in the Heritage plant. All she is responsible for doing is the final fine sanding and glue removal. She's just one piece of a fine tuned assembly line or assembly stage and process . . . albeit a much smaller and less complicated one than Gibson's♠. However, she knows that her involvement, performance and execution is crucial to the out come and the end result.

 

 

 

WOW I am the one who feels like they were cut short here. I should not respond to these posts because I know that you gentlemen only see a small part of a work day for any of us. Yes, a lot of the time I only have guitars to sand and leave early for the day. A great benefit I must add. I am capable of many other tasks. When we still had a lot of work (pre-recession days) I would finish my job and continue over to rim-lining. I may also glue veneers together for double cut aways or help Marv with cutting necks. Jim has allowed me to do everything that the body builder Chris is responsible for. I may have about 30 pick guards to bind and clean. Who knows I may even be up front answering the phones and harnessing controls on slow days. I may even help Bill pack up some instruments to ship out. I'm in no way trying to pat myself on the back here only trying to express at Heritage we as employees have a strong repore with one another and help in all areas. Yes, we all have job titles but, there is not a day that goes by that one of us is not in someone else station doing their work or asking for opinions. None of us see this as a problem we like being a team it shows in our final product from my stand point. Of course we will always have problems with certain things here and there in our product 'hence' the hand build status, all we can do is continue to strive for perfection and fix the problems as they arise. My intentions here were not to offend anyone in this forum. I truly appreciate all of you Heritage players, like I always state without you folks we wouldn't exist. I just felt very belittled.

 

The Girl

 

Katie,

 

Not trying to score brownie points with you, but to just point out that almost all of us believe in every single worker at Heritage is above the "assembly line worker" at "whatever other" guitar company. We love & respect all you employees at Heritage and hope you sustain a happy & fulfilling career at Heritage!

 

Here is a bit from where I posted earlier in this thread.... YOU ROCK GIRL!!!!!

 

-"We are just going to have to agree to disagree about the work satisfaction of the production Gibby worker vs Heritage worker. YES, Katie knows she fills a very important niche, but she can go to who did the work if it is faulty and have it fixed or notify the person of their fault. This is MUCH harder to do on an assembly line (but then again we have already established that Heritage is superior to the mass built Gibbys and Heritages need to be compared to the Gibby Cust Shop)"

[golferwave]

You tell em Kate! In this day and age employees everywhere have had to learn to wear many hats and all of you at Heritage have been doing that for quite some time. Thanks for your attention to detail in making the guitars we love even better!

[buelahbones]

Katie,

 

Not trying to score brownie points with you, but to just point out that almost all of us believe in every single worker at Heritage is above the "assembly line worker" at "whatever other" guitar company. We love & respect all you employees at Heritage and hope you sustain a happy & fulfilling career at Heritage!

 

Here is a bit from where I posted earlier in this thread.... YOU ROCK GIRL!!!!!

 

-"We are just going to have to agree to disagree about the work satisfaction of the production Gibby worker vs Heritage worker. YES, Katie knows she fills a very important niche, but she can go to who did the work if it is faulty and have it fixed or notify the person of their fault. This is MUCH harder to do on an assembly line (but then again we have already established that Heritage is superior to the mass built Gibbys and Heritages need to be compared to the Gibby Cust Shop)"

 

 

Thanks Kuz. I'm glad your not trying to score brownie points because I think the owners are not considering a Heritage Guitar Reward Card anytime soon. Some of you would bankrupt us with all the frequent player points. (Brent) lol

[Patrick]

Also, you sell many of the employees short at Gibson if you think that just because they are performing a small part of an overall process that they don't take pride in what they do and how it will affect the final result. Equal arguments could be made for the pros and cons of both large assembly line processes and smaller boutique type processes. Just take a look at Katie in the Heritage plant. All she is responsible for doing is the final fine sanding and glue removal. She's just one piece of a fine tuned assembly line or assembly stage and process . . . albeit a much smaller and less complicated one than Gibson's♠. However, she knows that her involvement, performance and execution is crucial to the out come and the end result.

 

 

 

WOW I am the one who feels like they were cut short here. I should not respond to these posts because I know that you gentlemen only see a small part of a work day for any of us. Yes, a lot of the time I only have guitars to sand and leave early for the day. A great benefit I must add. I am capable of many other tasks. When we still had a lot of work (pre-recession days) I would finish my job and continue over to rim-lining. I may also glue veneers together for double cut aways or help Marv with cutting necks. Jim has allowed me to do everything that the body builder Chris is responsible for. I may have about 30 pick guards to bind and clean. Who knows I may even be up front answering the phones and harnessing controls on slow days. I may even help Bill pack up some instruments to ship out. I'm in no way trying to pat myself on the back here only trying to express at Heritage we as employees have a strong repore with one another and help in all areas. Yes, we all have job titles but, there is not a day that goes by that one of us is not in someone else station doing their work or asking for opinions. None of us see this as a problem we like being a team it shows in our final product from my stand point. Of course we will always have problems with certain things here and there in our product 'hence' the hand build status, all we can do is continue to strive for perfection and fix the problems as they arise. My intentions here were not to offend anyone in this forum. I truly appreciate all of you Heritage players, like I always state without you folks we wouldn't exist. I just felt very belittled.

 

The Girl

 

 

Katie . . . you shouldn't feel at all "cut short" by my comments about your sanding station. That certainly wasn't my intent. You're correct, that's all I ever saw you doing during the times I visited the plant. I guess I shouldn't have assumed that's all you did. But, my comments were more in line with your response to that. Each component (crafts person) of that plant plays a crucial roll to the end result, regardless of which station they are working at on any given day. Unlike an individual luthier, the work that is done in shops like Heritage is done at "stations" if I may use that term. Each person, at each station, regardless of who it is or what station it's at, has an issue of pride in their work and their craftsmanship. When Ray Noud is working at the finger board station, he doesn't work under the attitude of . . "as long as the finger board looks good I don't give a hoot about the rest of the guitar" He wants his work to add to the end result. That's the point I was trying to make.

[buelahbones]

Katie . . . you shouldn't feel at all "cut short" by my comments about your sanding station. That certainly wasn't my intent. You're correct, that's all I ever saw you doing during the times I visited the plant. I guess I shouldn't have assumed that's all you did. But, my comments were more in line with your response to that. Each component (crafts person) of that plant plays a crucial roll to the end result, regardless of which station they are working at on any given day. Unlike an individual luthier, the work that is done in shops like Heritage is done at "stations" if I may use that term. Each person, at each station, regardless of who it is or what station it's at, has an issue of pride in their work and their craftsmanship. When Ray Noud is working at the finger board station, he doesn't work under the attitude of . . "as long as the finger board looks good I don't give a hoot about the rest of the guitar" He wants his work to add to the end result. That's the point I was trying to make.

 

 

Sorry Patrick my pride may have over stepped my thought process. I do see what your intent was. I just don't want anyone to underestimate the capabilities of myself or my co-workers. We are the younger generation of this company, students if you wish. We all learn from each other on a daily basis and improve not alone but together. We all do have the same task in mind though. We all want every single guitar to be played and enjoyed. The worst fate for a guitar is to be stuffed under a bed or in a closet. Orville Gibson himself would approve of our team efforts and in my heart I know he would approve of what and who we are today~~~~Heritage a legacy.

[big bob]

Sorry Patrick my pride may have over stepped my thought process. I do see what your intent was. I just don't want anyone to underestimate the capabilities of myself or my co-workers. We are the younger generation of this company, students if you wish. We all learn from each other on a daily basis and improve not alone but together. We all do have the same task in mind though. We all want every single guitar to be played and enjoyed. The worst fate for a guitar is to be stuffed under a bed or in a closet. Orville Gibson himself would approve of our team efforts and in my heart I know he would approve of what and who we are today~~~~Heritage a legacy.

 

Kate Has built (from design on) two of the best, UM,,ER... the two best, guitars I have ever played.. Both were her children. The first was a Popsicle, the second a cherry tomato.

Both of these guitars were built by her and her friends on employee tickets. They are the highest quality in every way, better than a "custom made" for a "guy" with big bucks (and a big head). They were made from the heart, to be played.. I am proud to say that I have one. And she is perfect.. I would wager better than any other heritage, not because she was built to "my specs" but because she was built for me to the builders specs, the new generation builders specs. Built By Kate, and Chris, and Curly, and Pete.. and others ... To be the best..

Any one who thinks that the New guard at Heritage are just "getting a pay check" are, ... well STUPID.. They are the future of the industry..

 

Thanks Kate.

[buelahbones]

Oh No No No Thank You Lance! I'm humbled by the love for your guitar. She was a fun one to build. Lots of problems and tempermental just like any spoiled child should behave. Play her loud and proud! I've been attempting colorful notes on mine as well. The dog is not def or howling so, that is a good sign.

[Patrick]

Kate Has built (from design on) two of the best, UM,,ER... the two best, guitars I have ever played.. Both were her children. The first was a Popsicle, the second a cherry tomato.

Both of these guitars were built by her and her friends on employee tickets. They are the highest quality in every way, better than a "custom made" for a "guy" with big bucks (and a big head). They were made from the heart, to be played.. I am proud to say that I have one. And she is perfect.. I would wager better than any other heritage, not because she was built to "my specs" but because she was built for me to the builders specs, the new generation builders specs. Built By Kate, and Chris, and Curly, and Pete.. and others ... To be the best..

Any one who thinks that the New guard at Heritage are just "getting a pay check" are, ... well STUPID.. They are the future of the industry..

 

Thanks Kate.

 

Sad... . so sad. Lance, if you'll allow me to . . . I'm going to chose to believe that these pointed comments were not directed towards me. As such, I'm going to choose not to respond in kind. Peace man.

[buelahbones]

Sad... . so sad. Lance, if you'll allow me to . . . I'm going to chose to believe that these pointed comments were not directed towards me. As such, I'm going to choose not to respond in kind. Peace man.

 

 

Alright PLEASE stop. I adore both of you gentlemen. I replied to this post honestly not knowing who posted it. I stated my thoughts and said what I felt needed to be said. For lack of a better phrase I inserted my foot into a pile instead of my mouth. I see now that was not an attack on my duties just a misunderstanding on both sides. Happens!!! As for coming to my defense as a luthier I am grateful, but do not want animosity amongst members, not my plan. Like Sweden let us all be neutral.

[Patrick]

Alright PLEASE stop. I adore both of you gentlemen. I replied to this post honestly not knowing who posted it. I stated my thoughts and said what I felt needed to be said. For lack of a better phrase I inserted my foot into a pile instead of my mouth. I see now that was not an attack on my duties just a misunderstanding on both sides. Happens!!! As for coming to my defense as a luthier I am grateful, but do not want animosity amongst members, not my plan. Like Sweden let us all be neutral.

 

Katie . . I'm gonna hijack this thread just for a brief moment ..if you remember, when I was last at the plant, you were working on a Super Eagle, sharp cut away, 3-1/4" body for Jay Wolfe. That's when the transformer went down and you couldn't finish it. Was that ever completed? If so, how did it turn out? If you recall, I was really drawn to that guitar .. . even though it wasn't finished.

[Guest mgoetting]

The Girl

 

That had to be you in the Pete Moreno shirt!

 

It's no surprise that you have a wide skill set. I can't imagine how Heritage would function otherwise.

 

I had the pleasure to know quite a few Gibson employees in Kalamazoo. Some were talented craftsmen and some were more like one trick factory workers. I knew one person who rarely touched an unfinished guitar and was isolated in business management.

 

I would guess that a smaller Heritage would function best as a large custom shop, where skill sets overlap among workers.

 

Lance's guitars are simply stunning, even if they are named after food. More remarkable to me is that I have a plain Jane H150 and an old Millie Classic that are magnificent in design and execution. Not custom at all but still heirlooms.

[buelahbones]

Katie . . I'm gonna hijack this thread just for a brief moment ..if you remember, when I was last at the plant, you were working on a Super Eagle, sharp cut away, 3-1/4" body for Jay Wolfe. That's when the transformer went down and you couldn't finish it. Was that ever completed? If so, how did it turn out? If you recall, I was really drawn to that guitar .. . even though it wasn't finished.

 

It was the first guitar I worked on Monday. She was still waiting for me in the same place when we got back. AWESOME wood package on that girl. Someone will be a happy soul, just sanding it I could hear the sound that she will be able to make. I love when that happens. Archtops are my favorite to work on, masterpieces. Patrick should have it back downstairs in about 2 weeks. I think it was going Ant Nat but can't remember for sure now that was a few days ago.

[Patrick]

It was the first guitar I worked on Monday. She was still waiting for me in the same place when we got back. AWESOME wood package on that girl. Someone will be a happy soul, just sanding it I could hear the sound that she will be able to make. I love when that happens. Archtops are my favorite to work on, masterpieces. Patrick should have it back downstairs in about 2 weeks. I think it was going Ant Nat but can't remember for sure now that was a few days ago.

 

I believe you're correct on the Ant Nat. I remember you and I looked at the build sheet on it together and that's what it said. If I remember, that didn't have a rout for a pup. Probably going to be a floater or all acoustic. It was definitely a beautiful wood package. It's really a terrible thing. I want to own every beautiful arch top I see.

[Patrick]

That had to be you in the Pete Moreno shirt!

 

It's no surprise that you have a wide skill set. I can't imagine how Heritage would function otherwise.

 

I had the pleasure to know quite a few Gibson employees in Kalamazoo. Some were talented craftsmen and some were more like one trick factory workers. I knew one person who rarely touched an unfinished guitar and was isolated in business management.

 

I would guess that a smaller Heritage would function best as a large custom shop, where skill sets overlap among workers.

 

Lance's guitars are simply stunning, even if they are named after food. More remarkable to me is that I have a plain Jane H150 and an old Millie Classic that are magnificent in design and execution. Not custom at all but still heirlooms.

 

Hey man . . .let's not forget that you have a pretty damn nice Johnny Smith too!!!!

[buelahbones]

That had to be you in the Pete Moreno shirt!

 

It's no surprise that you have a wide skill set. I can't imagine how Heritage would function otherwise.

 

I had the pleasure to know quite a few Gibson employees in Kalamazoo. Some were talented craftsmen and some were more like one trick factory workers. I knew one person who rarely touched an unfinished guitar and was isolated in business management.

 

I would guess that a smaller Heritage would function best as a large custom shop, where skill sets overlap among workers.

 

Lance's guitars are simply stunning, even if they are named after food. More remarkable to me is that I have a plain Jane H150 and an old Millie Classic that are magnificent in design and execution. Not custom at all but still heirlooms.

 

 

Yes, that would be me. I have known Pete since I was about 4 years old and would recommend anyone and everyone to go to him for any thing string instrument related. He stopped by the shop the other day and I told him that I was going to start charging commission for all the recommendations I give out for him. My dad and Pete worked together at Gibson and Heritage. Maybe you know my dad as well Claude Dean? He held different positions here at different times. I think his last area was in set-up but, I could be wrong, I was not able to work here at the same time as my dad but, know he is always looking over my shoulder and checking my work. He was a fine luthier in his time and is my biggest idol.

[big bob]

That had to be you in the Pete Moreno shirt!

 

It's no surprise that you have a wide skill set. I can't imagine how Heritage would function otherwise.

 

I had the pleasure to know quite a few Gibson employees in Kalamazoo. Some were talented craftsmen and some were more like one trick factory workers. I knew one person who rarely touched an unfinished guitar and was isolated in business management.

 

I would guess that a smaller Heritage would function best as a large custom shop, where skill sets overlap among workers.

 

Lance's guitars are simply stunning, even if they are named after food. More remarkable to me is that I have a plain Jane H150 and an old Millie Classic that are magnificent in design and execution. Not custom at all but still heirlooms.

Only one is mine (the tomato) I traded Kate her first born (the psychedelic Popsicle) back for the tomato.

 

And Mark, all your guitars are stunning.. you should keep them longer..

 

Oh No No No Thank You Lance! I'm humbled by the love for your guitar. She was a fun one to build. Lots of problems and tempermental just like any spoiled child should behave. Play her loud and proud! I've been attempting colorful notes on mine as well. The dog is not def or howling so, that is a good sign.

 

 

Oh no Kate I am humbled and ever so grateful you made me my gal, she will always be my #1.

I just can't stop myself from remarking on what a GREAT job you did.. She is amazing.... TONE FOR DAYS...

Thank you..

[Gitfiddler]

"Can't we all just get along?"

 

 

Hey, Katie, Curley, Chris, Pete, Marv, Ren, et al can ALL build me a gitfiddle ANY TIME! It is obvious that an incredible team spirit exists at the Heritage plant. We benefit from their incredible work. Keep on keepin' on!!

 

That great team built this for me and I absolutely LOVE this thing!

[JeffB]

"Can't we all just get along?"

 

 

Hey, Katie, Curley, Chris, Pete, Marv, Ren, et al can ALL build me a gitfiddle ANY TIME! It is obvious that an incredible team spirit exists at the Heritage plant. We benefit from their incredible work. Keep on keepin' on!!

 

That great team built this for me and I absolutely LOVE this thing!

That guitar......awesome......damn.......ouch......screensaver. Everytime I turn on the computer Im going to suffer.

[byrdland]

Whoa Whoa Whoa! I feel some folks are taking this topic a little to serious. Gibson, heritage, fender, ibanez ect ect are just guitars in the end. I think the players are the most important equation. 2000 dollar 535 or 4500 dollar les paul custom, whats the difference if the player aint makin it happen.

 

I see this all the time on all brands where the guitar gets obsessed about and the musician is forgotten about. The way I see it hendrix, malmsteen,mayer,srv or beck would make any heritage or gibby look bad when they picked up thier 800.00 american stratocasters, just like zack wylde,page,slash, will make a fender look bad when they pick thiers up ( IT'S THE PLAYER THAT MAKES THEM GUITARS AWSOME!!!!!!) . All I'm sayin is it's all in the player not the grain of the top or the amount of pearl it has or how long the tenon is, or what brand glue is used ect ect ect ect---, who cares!! if someone isnt making good music with what ever guitar they play whats the point.

 

In summary- I'm more intrested in learning new techniques and playing better by the day, not how much my 157 is compared to a gibby les paul custom, because in the end a good guitar player will make anyting sound good and whats in his hands doesnt matter at that point,,,, and you all know I'm right :0)

Joe Pass: "Hey man, I've got a gig tonight and I need to borrow a guitar. I lent mine to Lenny Breau and he sold it."

Joe's Friend: "I know a couple of guys. One lives Uptown. He's got a D'Angelico. The other lives Downtown, next to the sandwich shop. He's got an old 175."

Joe Pass: "Stromboli?"

Joe's Friend: "The best."

Joe Pass: "How do I get there?"

Joe's Friend: "I'll take you, I'm sort of hungry myself. Do You need an amp too? I have a couple."

Joe Pass: "Uh, yeah I guess, something not too heavy would be nice. Really good Stromboli you say?"

Joe's Friend: "The best... This guy could take shoe leather and make it taste good."

[JeffB]

Joe Pass: "Hey man, I've got a gig tonight and I need to borrow a guitar. I lent mine to Lenny Breau and he sold it."

Joe's Friend: "I know a couple of guys. One lives Uptown. He's got a D'Angelico. The other lives Downtown, next to the sandwich shop. He's got an old 175."

Joe Pass: "Stromboli?"

Joe's Friend: "The best."

Joe Pass: "How do I get there?"

Joe's Friend: "I'll take you, I'm sort of hungry myself. Do You need an amp too? I have a couple."

Joe Pass: "Uh, yeah I guess, something not too heavy would be nice. Really good Stromboli you say?"

Joe's Friend: "The best... This guy could take shoe leather and make it taste good."

Thanks for posting that. Dont know if its based off a true conversation or not but Im assuming it is.

Everytime I start getting too deep about increments of tone or start having GAS issues Im going to ask myself, "Stromboli?"

[mark555]

This topic comes around every so often, which is great because it's a natural kind of question to ask. My take is that if cost were no consideration, most Gibson and Heritage guitars are generally comparable in terms of quality. It may not be fair to compare Gibson production guitars with Heritage guitars, since Gibson just makes SO many more--that is, for the money it's fair to compare, but if it's just about quality, it's probably not. I think the fair comparison is Gibson Custom Shop vs Heritage, and on that score I think it's pretty even. You pay a lot for the Gibson Custom Shop guitars, but they do hold their value and are relatively easy to sell. Heritage guitars are the best bang-for-the-buck on the used market, but are a little tougher to sell. And you just gotta love the Heritage story, while it's very easy to dismiss Gibson's often dopey marketing.

 

Magazines exist to sell advertising, so any comparison between Gibson and Heritage is not likely to happen. Gibson is just too much of a major force for any magazine to risk that account.

 

Just a thought John, while I agree with what you say, over here the main advertisement for Gibson seems comes from retailers, but it is getting very hard to get a brand new Gibson now unless you visit one or two larger stores that have put a lot of money into stock, the shop that used to hang a les paul and an SG on the wall can't do that any more. I stopped buying guitar mag's because all I got for my £5 was a huge amount of advertising which is identical every months.

[mark555]

Joe Pass: "Hey man, I've got a gig tonight and I need to borrow a guitar. I lent mine to Lenny Breau and he sold it."

Joe's Friend: "I know a couple of guys. One lives Uptown. He's got a D'Angelico. The other lives Downtown, next to the sandwich shop. He's got an old 175."

Joe Pass: "Stromboli?"

Joe's Friend: "The best."

Joe Pass: "How do I get there?"

Joe's Friend: "I'll take you, I'm sort of hungry myself. Do You need an amp too? I have a couple."

Joe Pass: "Uh, yeah I guess, something not too heavy would be nice. Really good Stromboli you say?"

Joe's Friend: "The best... This guy could take shoe leather and make it taste good."

 

Our very own forum member peteraltongreen did actually lend Joe Pass a guitar back in the seventies when Joe played some gigs here in England, maybe he will tell us the story if he reads this thread. And, I have actually played the guitar he let Joe borrow, but none of the magic has rubbed off on me!

[mark555]

Listen, you know you won't find a more passionate HERITAGE supporter than me.

 

It's just what you want in a guitar, in supporting a company, in a status symbol, in tradition.

 

My point is YOU CAN find a great sounding/playing NEW Gibby.... but you will have to go through plenty of them to find one. On other forms, great sounding/playing Les Pauls are referred to as "unicorns" because they are so hard to find. But they are out there.

 

I have played a COUPLE of Les Pauls that are as good as "Greeny" & "Sean", BUT NOT BETTER.

 

My point is:

- the Heritage product is superior/equal to any Gibby I have ever played.

- I have only played one "dog" Heritage (out of maybe 35-40)

- WHY would anyone want to go through all the fuss of weeding through Gibbys to find a good one, when Heritage is available.

- I don't care what Slash, Joe Bonomassa, the American Idol kids, are playing.

- Heritage guitars are BETTER looking.

 

AND finally....

- I am not trying to be like every other 16-23 year old that buys a Gibby and raves about it on Harmony Central!

 

Heritage guitars are the real deal, handmade by great people at a historic site, look better, and are superior/equal to anything Gibby makes....me I'd rather support Heritage Guitar Company.

 

END OF STORY!

 

This is true...

[Patrick]

Our very own forum member peteraltongreen did actually lend Joe Pass a guitar back in the seventies when Joe played some gigs here in England, maybe he will tell us the story if he reads this thread. And, I have actually played the guitar he let Joe borrow, but none of the magic has rubbed off on me!

 

What a wonderful story by byrdland. I don't care if it's true or not .. .it's definitely Joe Pass. Great Stromboli . . . I love the under-pinning message. Joe could have probably played the Stromboli and made wonderful music with it. That was great and it will have me smiling all day!!!!!