Sustain

[koula901]

Hi Guys,

 

Finally had a chance to plug in that 535, and WOW, does it SUSTAIN - every bit as good as the much heavier 10 lb 6 oz H 150 I had; and my H 535 weighs only 7.6 lbs - exactly 1 lb lighter than both my 137 and the mim strat. Of my 3, this one sustains the best. This, in my mind, anyway, debunks the theory that weight has anything to do with sustain. Yeah, I got a "chunky" neck, but it's really more of a medium neck, than chunky. My H 535 has High Order A-2 pickups, which sound fat, sweet high end, round, and a little bit wooly - very bluesy pups. This is a much different animal than my 1976 Gibson ES 335 - much more fullnes and body to it. And frankly, it surprises me that a semi-hollow body, made entirely out of maple, no less, would sustain so well. I think its true, what they say, strum a guitar first, unplugged and see how it rings out, because this one really does ring out unplugged, so, I'm not sure that sustain has anything to do with the pups. What are your experiences?

[pegleg32]

Hi Guys,

 

Finally had a chance to plug in that 535, and WOW, does it SUSTAIN - every bit as good as the much heavier 10 lb 6 oz H 150 I had; and my H 535 weighs only 7.6 lbs - exactly 1 lb lighter than both my 137 and the mim strat. Of my 3, this one sustains the best. This, in my mind, anyway, debunks the theory that weight has anything to do with sustain. Yeah, I got a "chunky" neck, but it's really more of a medium neck, than chunky. My H 535 has High Order A-2 pickups, which sound fat, sweet high end, round, and a little bit wooly - very bluesy pups. This is a much different animal than my 1976 Gibson ES 335 - much more fullnes and body to it. And frankly, it surprises me that a semi-hollow body, made entirely out of maple, no less, would sustain so well. I think its true, what they say, strum a guitar first, unplugged and see how it rings out, because this one really does ring out unplugged, so, I'm not sure that sustain has anything to do with the pups. What are your experiences?

 

Hey Katy, my Heritage H-535 is absolutly the best guitar I have ever owned or played. I have never found anything that would compare. I'm glad you are enjoying yours. Mine does sustain very nicely, but I can't honestly tell you it sustains better than my 150.

[mars_hall]

You have in one statement discounted all the other contributing factors included in the system such as worn saddles, fretting out, resonant frequency of materials, temperature, humidity, etc. Each provides a weighted and varying coefficient that can introduce a damping of the original energy delivered to the string. Weight (mass) of the body indirectly equates to an increase in rigidity and sustain since the force vectors running perpendicular to the original force applied to the string must overcome the inertia of the body at rest. The string endpoints move changing the length of the string over time. F=d/dt(mv)

 

Anything that interferes with the propagation of the reflected waves at the endpoints of the string (such as a continuous changing of string length due to a lack of rigidity) will cause the standing wave energy (i.e. fundamental frequency) of the vibration to decay. There is an imperfect transfer of energy resulting in disruptive nodes along the wave path. ;P

[H]

What he said

[mars_hall]

BTW, I'm just playing here, but am reasonably accurate in the quick analysis that leaves many things unconsidered.

[koula901]

You have in one statement discounted all the other contributing factors included in the system such as worn saddles, fretting out, resonant frequency of materials, temperature, humidity, etc. Each provides a weighted and varying coefficient that can introduce a damping of the original energy delivered to the string. Weight (mass) of the body indirectly equates to an increase in rigidity and sustain since the force vectors running perpendicular to the original force applied to the string must overcome the inertia of the body at rest. The string endpoints move changing the length of the string over time. F=d/dt(mv)

 

Anything that interferes with the propagation of the reflected waves at the endpoints of the string (such as a continuous changing of string length due to a lack of rigidity) will cause the standing wave energy (i.e. fundamental frequency) of the vibration to decay. There is an imperfect transfer of energy resulting in disruptive nodes along the wave path. ;P

 

2 new guitars, saddles are not worn, same string lengh, same humidity, 535 has a bone saddle, 150 had whatever Heritage ships it with (plastic?). Heritate 10 lbs 6 oz, fully 3 lbs heavier; sustain equal or better than the 150 - go figure?

[mars_hall]

2 new guitars, saddles are not worn, same string lengh, same humidity, 535 has a bone saddle, 150 had whatever Heritage ships it with (plastic?). Heritate 10 lbs 6 oz, fully 3 lbs heavier; sustain equal or better than the 150 - go figure?

 

I'd figure the 535 endpoints are more rigid/perfect in this instance ;P

Enjoy your guitar

[DeLorean]

2 new guitars, saddles are not worn, same string lengh, same humidity, 535 has a bone saddle, 150 had whatever Heritage ships it with (plastic?). Heritate 10 lbs 6 oz, fully 3 lbs heavier; sustain equal or better than the 150 - go figure?

 

A bone nut I could believe, but I doubt your 535 has a bone saddle. The 150, depending on when it was made, would have had a tune-a-matic or a Schaller roller bridge (not plastic), and the 535 the same.

 

While I agree with the conclusion (weight is not a good indicator of sustain), it is very difficult for opinions put forward with incorrect terminology to get taken seriously. Pay attention to what mars_hall is telling you, that post about wave motion is the truth.

[JeffB]

I guess if I have two or 3 guitars in front of me and Im going through the a/b process Im going to know which guitar sustains better what ever the reason for that maybe.

Maybe its the vibration of the semi that keeps the sustain going.

 

Kind of different but similar.

I went through a process of trying to figure out why one PRS CU22 sounded felt and played so much better for me than the other 5 on the wall that shared exactly the same specs with no variance what so ever. They were all restrung and set up by me on the same day. Same brand of stings and string gauge. Same set up. P/ups to the same height. One was a clear winner and one was a clear loser. The others some where in the middle but not real close to the one I liked.

Right now Im going through something similar with a couple of LTD EC400VF's. One is sensational and the other, regardless of strings or set up doesnt step up. I gravitate towards heavier guitars generally(dont want to, just do) but its the heavier on thats being all bland and uninspiring. Not the same ring or chunk, chink, chug.(what ever that is)

[koula901]

A bone nut I could believe, but I doubt your 535 has a bone saddle. The 150, depending on when it was made, would have had a tune-a-matic or a Schaller roller bridge (not plastic), and the 535 the same.

 

While I agree with the conclusion (weight is not a good indicator of sustain), it is very difficult for opinions put forward with incorrect terminology to get taken seriously. Pay attention to what mars_hall is telling you, that post about wave motion is the truth.

 

Hi DeLorean,

To help clarify - My H 535 has a locking tone Pros Tune O matic Bridge as well as stoptail Tone Pros locking tail piece, Grover tuners, and was refittied with a bone nut (if I was calling it a 'saddle' then I mis-spoke). It was made in October 2008. The 150 was made in 2010, had the usual material Heritage puts on a 150 for the nut (some sort of plastic, I believe), along with the same hardware for bridge and tail piece. But one other factor has come to my attention, which may be contributing to the 535's resonance is the fact that it's semi-hollow - I'm wondering if maybe the wood vibrates more. It's just a thought. I'm not necessarily saying that what mars_hall is telling me is not the truth, just saying that weight doesn't always mean great sustain. I think he's saying its one of many contributing factors.

[koula901]

I guess if I have two or 3 guitars in front of me and Im going through the a/b process Im going to know which guitar sustains better what ever the reason for that maybe.

Maybe its the vibration of the semi that keeps the sustain going.

 

Kind of different but similar.

I went through a process of trying to figure out why one PRS CU22 sounded felt and played so much better for me than the other 5 on the wall that shared exactly the same specs with no variance what so ever. They were all restrung and set up by me on the same day. Same brand of stings and string gauge. Same set up. P/ups to the same height. One was a clear winner and one was a clear loser. The others some where in the middle but not real close to the one I liked.

Right now Im going through something similar with a couple of LTD EC400VF's. One is sensational and the other, regardless of strings or set up doesnt step up. I gravitate towards heavier guitars generally(dont want to, just do) but its the heavier on thats being all bland and uninspiring. Not the same ring or chunk, chink, chug.(what ever that is)

 

Very interesting, about your PRS's and LTD Ec's. I guess it's a complex issue, and one can't predict these things until you try them out.

[JeffB]

Very interesting, about your PRS's and LTD Ec's. I guess it's a complex issue, and one can't predict these things until you try them out.

They werent my guitars. I work around guitars.

Another time though, I did have two PRS Swamp Ash Specials(mine) and went about swapping necks and p/ups between the two to try and figure out why one sounded better to me. Was it the body, the neck, the p/ups? Came away thinking it was a bit of everything. I married the better body and neck combination's and came away with two really good guitars that I liked with the same specs that both sounded great but different and better than both had before in their original incarnations.

I watch people compare and buy on specs time and time again. Specs mean nothing and all the science behind it means little if the right pieces of wood are not glued together.

[Guest HRB853370]

You have in one statement discounted all the other contributing factors included in the system such as worn saddles, fretting out, resonant frequency of materials, temperature, humidity, etc. Each provides a weighted and varying coefficient that can introduce a damping of the original energy delivered to the string. Weight (mass) of the body indirectly equates to an increase in rigidity and sustain since the force vectors running perpendicular to the original force applied to the string must overcome the inertia of the body at rest. The string endpoints move changing the length of the string over time. F=d/dt(mv)

 

Anything that interferes with the propagation of the reflected waves at the endpoints of the string (such as a continuous changing of string length due to a lack of rigidity) will cause the standing wave energy (i.e. fundamental frequency) of the vibration to decay. There is an imperfect transfer of energy resulting in disruptive nodes along the wave path. ;P

 

THE ENGINEER HAS SPOKEN!!!

 

[FredZepp]

Yes... it does go against the conventional wisdom that a lighter semi would sustain more than a solidbody 150.

Some will claim that a lighter solidbody is more resonant than a denser one, but there are many variations.

 

(Of course, a desirable tone may involve the attack of the notes or the harmonic frequencies generated , beyond just sustain. )

 

And perhaps certain notes sustain more on one and other notes sustain more on the other..... or one creates more complex harmonic frequencies.

 

It would seem that the string sustains from the movement of the string being uninhibited and solid contact points.

But we also seem to count on the wood connecting the contact points allowing resonant frequencies to go through the wood itself and emphasizing those.

 

It is in a way reassuring that in some ways tone is not an exact science and has some mystery associated with it.

Otherwise it would seem more possible to create the finest tones in a laboratory and mass produce it, as opposed to the hand made and hand selected methods that we see produce the finest ... time after time.

 

The bottom line is that the old school methods at Parsons Street have one again produced a finest quality instrument... and the new owner is quite pleased it seems...

 

 

 

 

... Oh and... Great Post, Mars. Thoughtful analysis of the subject, it is.

[111518]

I think Mars Hall might be kidding, but is also absolutely right --pretty direct question of maintaining energy in the string. However, sustain is a good case of how a musician's perception can be different from a scientific reality. Maybe it is as simple as that the string's vibration is audible and sensible longer on an unplugged semi than on a solidbody, even if, hardware/etc. held constant, the solid would probably be more rigid and therefore actually sustain longer. Plug in and turn on an amp, and then a new set of complex variables are introduced, which I tend to think over-ride the importance of most factors of guitar construction. At rock and roll volume, sympathetic vibration trumps almost anything, at least in my experience.

 

For me, it's fun to understand the science, and important to dispel the "increases sustain" hokum used to sell hardware, etc. In the end, I think the Duke Ellington theorem applies: Sounds good = is good.

[koula901]

I think Mars Hall might be kidding, but is also absolutely right --pretty direct question of maintaining energy in the string. However, sustain is a good case of how a musician's perception can be different from a scientific reality. Maybe it is as simple as that the string's vibration is audible and sensible longer on an unplugged semi than on a solidbody, even if, hardware/etc. held constant, the solid would probably be more rigid and therefore actually sustain longer. Plug in and turn on an amp, and then a new set of complex variables are introduced, which I tend to think over-ride the importance of most factors of guitar construction. At rock and roll volume, sympathetic vibration trumps almost anything, at least in my experience.

 

For me, it's fun to understand the science, and important to dispel the "increases sustain" hokum used to sell hardware, etc. In the end, I think the Duke Ellington theorem applies: Sounds good = is good.

 

Larry,

Interesting, w/more variables to consider. And, like the D.E. saying.

[smurph1]

Hey Katy, my Heritage H-535 is absolutly the best guitar I have ever owned or played. I have never found anything that would compare. I'm glad you are enjoying yours. Mine does sustain very nicely, but I can't honestly tell you it sustains better than my 150.

+100

[bolero]

wow interesting notes here...

 

you should plug them into an amp & time the note decay

 

 

 

the nut will only affect it if you are playing unfretted notes

 

are you sure the action on the H150 isn't buzzing out early due to action/fretdressing?

 

ps are we talking unplugged sustain or plugged-in sustain?

[koula901]

wow interesting notes here...

 

you should plug them into an amp & time the note decay

 

Hi Bolero,

We're talking plugged in sustain, at-home volume level (as opposed to gig-level). The 150 is gone so, I couldn't conduct your experiment. The 150 wasn't buzzing, it was in perfect condition, well set up, and brand new, both have 10s on them. The 150 even had a chunkier neck.

 

As what seems to be shaking out here, there's a lot of different factors to consider.

[mark555]

In the book "The Beauty of the Burst" which I am sure almost everyone here has either seen, read or owns a copy of, it is said that it is the neck of the guitar that really counts when it comes to sustain, which would back up exactly what you are saying Katy. I have been looking so see where I left my copy of the book to give an exact quote, but just can't put my hand on it right now.

 

Anyway, the book I have referred to covers only what we would consider the very best solid body guitars Gibson ever made.

[jazzrat]

I think Fredzepp touched on it....resonance.

A solid body at concert volume sustains more than at bedroom volume.

There is sympathetic vibration stuff going on that doesn't kick in

when playing quieter.

Hollow bodies and semi-hollows think they are playing louder than they

are because there is some air movement and a body architecture that

vibrates more.

Not scientific but sure seems right in my experience.

 

I remember that brass was all the rage in the 70's and 80'....brass nut,

saddles, studs, you name it. You could end up with a 14 pound Les Paul

and some guy would come along with a 5 pound Tele made from old dry pine

and just clean your clock. The difference was, when you hit that Tele you

could feel it jump against your ribs and buzz your hand on the neck....

It thought it was playing louder than it was.

[the jayce]

Sustain is in the pickups and pick up hight. It being a hollowbody makes the resonance that much better for the pickups to ...Well>>> pickup! Wish I had a 535, cheers to ya on owning one

[TalismanRich]

Koula, I know exactly what you're hearing.

 

About a year ago, I was driving through Lexington Ky and stopped at Wilcutt. They had several 335s hanging on the wall. I picked up all of them and gave a few strums. All of the new ones were dead sounding. The used one was nice and lively sounding, just like my 535. This was all unamplified.

 

There are lots of things that will dampen the vibrations, The stiffness of the neck (is it quartersawn, riftsawn, how close to center was it.. it all changes the flex). How were the lamanate glued? The 335 and 535 are laminate tops. How many laminates and what type of glue. How are the grains crossed in the planes. It should all contribute to how it rings, much like how the top on an acoustic vibrates.

 

All that taken into consideration, the semis will pick up vibration and send it back through the strings much more easily than a solid body. Remember all the conversations about using archtops and hollowbodies in high volume settings? Same thing holds true here. I love getting that feeling of the guitar and amp just singing together!

 

Glad you're digging the 535

[big bob]

Wow, I can't believe all you cats missed it.

 

 

I've played many guitars in my days and with out a doubt the ones that always sustain the best are, well

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The RED ones, it's in the finish, red just sustains best.

[FredZepp]

Wow, I can't believe all you cats missed it.

 

 

I've played many guitars in my days and with out a doubt the ones that always sustain the best are, well

 

 

The RED ones, it's in the finish, red just sustains best.

I find that it's the ones with Stingers that have the best tone.....

 

 

And I can see where the hollow aspect of the guitar is playing into this as the guitar is amplified, that makes sense....