Is hand made really better than factory made

[rjsanders]

I hate to use this analogy... NOT REALLY!! Handcrafted compared to CNC is like "Democrats being compared to Independants!!!"

 

i think that's slightly backwards: Independents to Democrats. tho' if Dems were compared to CNC, it'd be a mighty quirky computator with wide variance in specs

 

i know & know of some pretty flakey hand-makers. are there certainly are good & less-good CNC products in guitLand. so, the final answer is "it depends"

[mark555]

I own a Tokai Les Paul, solid mahogany body, one piece mahogany neck, fabulous pick ups and good hardware and pots etc. This guitar came out of a Japanese factory and no doubt was a machine produced guitar. The quality of build and finish equals any other Gibson I have owned or seen, although I will concede that it does not have a nitro finish and the flame top is a layer of wood veneer on a maple cap. Other than that it is an incredible guitar for the money and as I play both my 555 and my Tokai, I can not in all honesty say the Heritage is better made for being hand made, although it is a thing of beauty in its own right.

 

Due to my personal circumstances I can not afford some of the guitars I desire to own, such as an H150CM, PRS and other top of the range guitars that we all would want. But what Japanese production has given me is the opportunity to own a high quality guitar that I can gig and record with, that is built superbly and sounds excellent. A Gibson les paul or a Heritage H150CM is at least £1200 more money over here in the UK, but there is no way on earth that either of those two brands have £1200 of difference in quality over the Toaki. In fact our bass player commented when he saw my Tokai for the first time that the scratch plate fits far better than the one on the Gibson he saw the same day in a store. Also, my son's friend bought a brand new SG standard and the strings do not even sit in the nut, they rest on top of it where as the Tokai came superbly set up right out of the box, I have not had to touch it. Every other player who has played my Tokai has been astounded by the quality of build and tone, and these have been guys who have some very high end guitars. I have no problem with using my Tokai in a live situation along side any other high end guitar, after all, a high end guitar played poorly will just be that.

 

Had I been in a position to buy a beautiful H150CM with deep flamed maple, of course I would have done so. But over the past few years I have changed my thinking greatly about guitars. I now look for a guitar that does the job I want it to do. When I first wanted a semi, all I wanted was a Gibson 335 in cherry. When I opened my mind, I decided the Heritage would be the way to go, better guitar and less money - I found a beautiful 555 for £800 including case, and over here, that is cheap for a guitar of this quality. I also needed a single cut, and I bought a)what my finance would allow and b)a guitar that met my own very high requirements of quality. The end result is that I have both a 555 and a single cut guitar, both of which are high quality guitars for less outlay than the cost of a new Gibson 335, a re issue block inlay 335 in cherry is selling at £2500 over here, the total cost of my 555 and Tokai was £1550.

[the jayce]

Many have went way to deep into this concept. So hears a short version. Machined is perfect and handmade has flaws. Your welcome

[mars_hall]

Many have went way to deep into this concept. So hears a short version. Machined is perfect and handmade has flaws. Your welcome

 

Close, machined is consistent and handmade may or may not have flaws.

 

I think the discriminating feature of handmade is the degree to which the human eye will go to find, weigh, and judge aesthetic flaws in the materials and adjust in real time. The machine makes the generalized assessment and does not work to correct or enhance.

 

I will take any guitar, no matter the construction, if it meets my eyes', hands', and ears' standard of acceptance.

[Kuz]

I stand by my previous assertion: it depends on the craftsman and it depends on the factory.

 

Absolutely. +1

[Kuz]

Many have went way to deep into this concept. So hears a short version. Machined is perfect and handmade has flaws. Your welcome

 

No using "hear" instead of "here" is a flaw!!! LOL

[the jayce]

No using "hear" instead of "here" is a flaw!!! LOL

 

 

Depends if it was meant metaphorically ( lets try thinking outside the box from time to time, keeps life interesting and less predictable). OH!!

[Patrick]

I guess we always enjoy something to discuss or debate while we have a bit of idle time on our hands. This seems to be one of those threads. Maybe I'll jump in too.

 

Hand made vs factory made. I wonder if guys like Joe Pass, Lenny Breau, Wes, Tal, Jimmy Page, Roy Buchanan, Chet Atkins, Clapton, etc., etc., ever stopped to assess whether it was better one way or another. One of the posts . . . might have been barrymclark said it depends on the craftsman and the factory. I couldn't agree more. I could certainly make a case for the single luthier, only one set of hands ever touching the guitar during the build process. But, the skill and talent level of that individual needs to be at or near the John D'Angelico or Jimmy D'Aquisto level. There are many luthiers currently building guitars who are really good at their craft. However, there are VERY few that rise to that D'Angelico or D'Aquisto level. Jimmy was clearly more talented, more consistent and more innovative than his mentor . . . . . and there may never be another Jimmy D'Aquisto . . . ever. However, even with those whose skills and talents do not quite reach up to those 2 masters, the other great ones will always have the advantage of greater attention to the detail of every aspect up the process.

 

I could also make a case for the small factory . . . such as Heritage .. . where the art of craftsmanship is as sound as any individual builder. It also affords the areas of "specialization" due to each individual stationof the build. Example;; In my opinion, Jimmy D'Aquisto was the best luthier ever to live. However, he can't hold a candle to Floyd or Patrick upstairs in the finish department at Parsons Street. Aaron Cowles probably tap tuned more tops in a year than any other builder did in a life time. Which of the individual luthiers rolled more necks than Marv Lamm? There's certainly something to be said for the areas of specialization.

 

With the exception of the initial rough carving of the tops and backs being done by machines . . . the process at Parsons Street is as hand made as any individual luthier and probably equally as good. The few exceptions I'm aware of might be guys like Mark Lacey. He claims to be hand cutting his own tailpieces out of bell brass, then sending them out for 18K gold plating. Some others claim to be hand carving their own ebony tail pieces and bridge bases. I know that Aaron Cowles hand carved both bridge bases on each of my Unitys. That certainly makes them more individualized. But does it make them better? I don't think so. For me personally, I like the attention to detail on a one on one basis. I get that when my local luthier builds me solid bodies . . . I got it from Aaron during the 2 Unity builds . . . and I got it from EVERYONE at the plant during the recent build of my new custom Golden Eagle, most especially Marv and Jim.

[pcovers]

Many have went way to deep into this concept. So hears a short version. Machined is perfect and handmade has flaws.

 

Yoiu forgot to add: Factory is just a great guitar, handmade gives tingles and the feeling of magic and romance. Not that that's a bad thing.

[pcovers]

I could certainly make a case for the single luthier...

I could also make a case for the small factory . . .

 

....And I could make a case for a large factory, such as the ones that produces Reverend guitars in Korea and Tokai in Japan.

 

A factory with mature QA/QC processes, highly trained and skilled workers, and quality materials can put out a guitar with all that is needed for a player to make something special.

[Patrick]

....And I could make a case for a large factory, such as the ones that produces Reverend guitars in Korea and Tokai in Japan.

 

A factory with mature QA/QC processes, highly trained and skilled workers, and quality materials can put out a guitar with all that is needed for a player to make something special.

 

Ain't that the truth!! That's why I always come to the defense of the employees at Gibson. They have state of the art production equipment . . . their buying power dictates that if they wanted, they could source the cremma-de-la-cremma of wood . . . (and in the case of the Custom Shop they usually do) . . . and they already have much of the needed skills. With a philosophical change of management's approach to QC & QA . . . . there would be no one in the industry to touch them. However, with that being said . . . . they would still not be able to replicate the whole persona, personal touch and history of the crew up at Parsons Street . . . . especially now that Hutch, Jim Hutchins, has passed on and is no longer at the Custom Shop in Gibson.

[Kuz]

Ain't that the truth!! That's why I always come to the defense of the employees at Gibson. They have state of the art production equipment . . . their buying power dictates that if they wanted, they could source the cremma-de-la-cremma of wood . . . (and in the case of the Custom Shop they usually do) . . . and they already have much of the needed skills. With a philosophical change of management's approach to QC & QA . . . . there would be no one in the industry to touch them. However, with that being said . . . . they would still not be able to replicate the whole persona, personal touch and history of the crew up at Parsons Street . . . . especially now that Hutch, Jim Hutchins, has passed on and is no longer at the Custom Shop in Gibson.

 

Well, I won't speak for Gibson, but I will disagree with the better woods for larger companies.

 

A year or so ago, PRS put out a limited run of Killer Quilt guitars with Korina bodies. EVERYONE of these guitars had either 2 or 3 piece bodies. For $3500 I need to have a one piece body to even give it a consideration. Now every Pre-Fender Hamer Korina guitar I have ever seen has had a one piece body.

 

I spoke with the manager at Willcutt guitars (Eric who is a GREAT guy and ALWAYS shoots straight)who carries both lines. He said it was easier for smaller companies with lower output to outsource better wood. Just simple mathematics, PRS couldn't get enough wood for 500-750 one piece Korina bodies, but pre-Fender Hamer could get 75 solid Korina one piece bodies.

 

I passed on that model PRS.

[Patrick]

Well, I won't speak for Gibson, but I will disagree with the better woods for larger companies.

 

A year or so ago, PRS put out a limited run of Killer Quilt guitars with Korina bodies. EVERYONE of these guitars had either 2 or 3 piece bodies. For $3500 I need to have a one piece body to even give it a consideration. Now every Pre-Fender Hamer Korina guitar I have ever seen has had a one piece body.

 

I spoke with the manager at Willcutt guitars (Eric who is a GREAT guy and ALWAYS shoots straight)who carries both lines. He said it was easier for smaller companies with lower output to outsource better wood. Just simple mathematics, PRS couldn't get enough wood for 500-750 one piece Korina bodies, but pre-Fender Hamer could get 75 solid Korina one piece bodies.

 

I passed on that model PRS.

 

Kuz: Not sure what you're talking about. Forget korina . . . .forget the companies like PRS who choose to buy what they want to buy. What I said was that the buying power of a Gibson trumps the buying power of most others. Gibson tops on Les Paul type guitar . . . those out of the Custom Shop is almost always better than ALL OTHERS. Indisputable. Period . . . .end of sentence!! Heritage could, of course, source better curly flamed maple. It will always be more difficult to source and more expensive than what is provided to Gibson. It's just a fact.

[Kuz]

Kuz: Not sure what you're talking about. Forget korina . . . .forget the companies like PRS who choose to buy what they want to buy. What I said was that the buying power of a Gibson trumps the buying power of most others. Gibson tops on Les Paul type guitar . . . those out of the Custom Shop is almost always better than ALL OTHERS. Indisputable. Period . . . .end of sentence!! Heritage could, of course, source better curly flamed maple. It will always be more difficult to source and more expensive than what is provided to Gibson. It's just a fact.

 

Pictorial response... (again this is in a good tongue & cheek nature, BUT......

 

I have never seen a better top on a semi than these one on mine...

 

 

OR a better one on this one for that matter....

 

[Spectrum13]

Getting a little specific but ok. What is best wood? If you are talking about the 10 tops used by PRS and Gibson AAAAA, I argue that Bo Derrick looks might not sound and make the best instrument. If Marv, Jim and J.P were purchasing maple and mahogany for Gibson since the 60s and building guitars since the 50's they know exactly what raw timber makes the best sounding and how to purchase from the existing suppliers. If you have been dealing with the same mills for 50 years I would go with relationships and knowledge over volume when the choice pieces are more difficult to harvest. You can be more selective when you build 1000 units vs 100,000 each year. Nothing wrong with a gold top 150.

[big bob]

I'm coming to this thread late. the absolute best guitar I have ever played was wade in a factory.. 225 parsons street.. it was not made by hand. It was made at a factory.

and it has a ten top... I will never sell it, because it was made just for me. But still at a factory. it sounds and plays amazing.

[Blunote]

Someone said earlier that whether handmade was better than machine made "Depends on the Factory, depends on the craftsman" or something to that effect. Someone else said "Factory is a great guitar; handmade gives tingles, and a feeling of magic and romance".

 

I think they're both right. I have a Chinese made Blueridge acoustic that is surprisingly well built and rivals the Martin models it's patterned after -but it doesn't elicit a sense of connection to another living biological unit. I mean craftsmen put a bit of themselves into their work, and that's part and parcel of the guitars we have from Heritage, or Gibson for that matter.

 

My dad was a tool and die maker. I got to work with him in his small business back in the 70's and 80's where we designed and built tooling primarily for the auto industry. Back then CNC was a relatively new technology. Much of the manufacturing simulation software used today wasn't generally available back then. It was primarily left to the die maker to spot potential issues with the designs, and compensate for designers lack of specific experience with the materials and geometries the final parts needed to conform to. Experience taught men like my dad how material was apt to flow, where cracks were likely to develop in parts, whether and how much spring-back was likely to be encountered, etc...

 

I expect luthiers would also develop a level of intuitive knowledge about the guitars they produce and similarly adjust for differences in wood density, grain, or species. Maybe it doesn't require the level of skill of a die maker, but I believe never-the-less that it can make a difference.

 

My dad worked until he was 72. One day he just knew he wasn't going to be able to finish a job he'd just gotten back from the designer. So he called up his customer and sent it back, along with the design. Later that day, he got a call from a a gentleman that wanted to buy his shop. The shop had been available for sale for several years before that but no interest. He sold it that day, and passed away 6 months later.

 

I never disposed of his personal tools even though I'll never build tooling again. To me, they're an extension or memory of what was in him. So for guys like me, the knowledge that an instrument had the personal attention of a master craftsman means something.

[mark555]

Patrick, I have to disagree with you that Gibson custom shops have the best tops, I have seen pictures of Heritage tops that are superior to anything I have seen on any Gibson custom shop guitar, and I promise you that I am not been overly loyal to Heritage.

 

It is certainly true that the primary purpose of wood in relationship to guitar manufacturing is to produce tone, but if you can get it beautiful alongside the tone, is that not a desirable thing? John's (Kuz) 535 in wineburst to me just has to be the most beautiful looking mix of timber and finish I have ever seen. When you compare what John probably paid for that guitar compared to what other premium brand manufacturers such as Gibson and PRS would have charged for a custom order of that magnitude I think it is a living testament to the guys at Heritage that they give a wonderful product and not use the excuse of AAAAA or private stock for inflating the price beyond reality. The actual cost of private stock timber or AAAAA maple is probably $50 - $75 a top more than normal, great for profit margins, don't you all think? Same body's, same necks, same hardware, just the suckers paying exorbitant prices for something no better other than the maple cap.

[mark555]

Here are some pictures of my machine built Tokai. This is Japanese factory quality. Bear in mind Heritage H150CM will cost over £2000 for a new one over here, this is what I paid £700 for plus the cost of a case. I have seen the same model guitar sell for £800 in other shops. The pictures are not very good, but they give some idea of the guitar. It is a solid mahogany back, a one piece mahogany neck, all inlay work is abalone. The top is a solid maple cap, with a maple vaneer over laid in pretty much the same way a 535 or 555 is done. A solid flame top of beautiful quality would have put £400 on top of the price for the next grade tokai, but no different quality in pick ups and other hardware. The finish is not nitro.

[mark555]

for some reason I am struggling to get more pics on each post, so you may see one pic to a post here.

[mark555]

Number 3

[mark555]

the back and neck are a much nicer colour than the camera seems to be reproducing and the pictures are not showing the grain in the wood as well as I would like to have shown you all.

[pcovers]

I don't like the looks of one piece back or top. I've owned several and none had any particularly unique or better tone than the multi piece guitars I've had. But then, this isn't really an on topic, topic

[bobmeyrick]

I'm inclined to agree with the "depends on the craftsman/factory" point of view. My Paulman strat was the product of two guys - Phil Boot and the late Paul McNab. While they could build guitars from the raw wood, they found that a lot of customers wanted variations on strats and teles. This led them to looking for a company that could supply them with blank bodies and necks that were made to their specifications and quality. They eventually settled on Warmoth. My strat has a one-piece swamp ash body, bird's-eye/flamed maple neck, Brazilian rosewood board with abalone dots and Joe Barden pickups. The guitar was a 40th birthday present to myself and cost £1300. To get such an instrument for such a (relatively!) low price would not have been possible if they were building from scratch. Needless to say I was very happy with the result!

[jjkrause84]

viva la Difference!!

 

"Vive" la difference....not "viva". "Vive la difference" is French, "viva" is Spanish.