Looking To Buy a Heritage, but Have a Few Questions

[Omar]

Well the thread name basically gives you the gist of this. I'm 23, into Metal mainly (Big 4 Thrash in particular but I'm also into heavier stuff C# and occasionally Drop A, but that's about as low as I'll go); I also like classic rock: Eagles, Queen, The Boss, The Who, Zep, U2, some more modern stuff, etc. So I'm looking at getting a Heritage H157. I currently have a Schecter C-1 Hellraiser with a FR, since my main guitar has a FR it makes keeping it in tune or changing tunings quite the task. So I'm looking at getting another guitar. I was looking at a White Gibson Explorer, a Dean VMNT, and some Schecter and ESP LP, Explorer, and Flying V style guitars. I've also been getting into seven string stuff and was also considering buying a seven string in addition to a hard tail guitar. I stopped into an old mom and pop guitar shop ad saw an H157, and basically fell in love. I have concerns. I play some heavier stuff, so I'm concerned at how well the guitar handles down tuning...it's a 24 and 3/4s length scale so that makes things a bit sloppier than a 25.5 that I was looking at otherwise. Also, the cost is a bit concerning. Basically for the price of a new H157 I could get a Dean Wings of Death VMNT and a Schecter C-7FR, however I do like the H157 more than either of those, but two guitars are typically better than one.

 

So my questions are this:

 

How well do H157s handle high amounts of gain and downtuning? The Heritage dealer where I live has shitty amps and he's an old hippie and I don't want to piss the guy off by downtuning his really nice stuff. I've had bad experience before with passive pick ups and high gain, and don't want to get a gorgeous H157 and have the first thing I do be fucking with it. I've heard that 24 and 3/4 length scales handle down tuning poorly.

 

 

Second:

 

What's the used market for an H157 like? I'm in no hurry to buy or anything, so if I can wait on a guitar I'd be willing to do that if I can get a deal.

[Halowords]

Hey Omar,

 

Others can speak to downtuning, however the impression I've gotten is heavy downtuning is probably best left to the 25.5" scales and heavy-gauge strings. Still, others will have more hands-on knowledge of that than me and speak of what

 

High gain; an H-157 (or H-150, I would not discount that, they're pretty much like an LP Standard) should be able to hand just about anything you can throw at it. Just look at who's used Les Pauls (or Heritage H-150's, ESP LP clones, etc.); James & Kirk of Metallica, Alex Skolnick of Testament, Jerry Cantrell of Alice in Chains, In Flames, etc.

 

A few things to consider:

 

1) Pickup Change: If you get an H-150/157 with Seth Lovers, you will probably need something else for your favorite Black Metal covers.

 

2) Quality over Quantity: I'm older than you, but still only 33 years old. It's worth noting a nice H-150 could be something you will want to keep the rest of your life. I can't say I'd feel the same about a VMNT (although those do seem pretty nice) or a Schecter. Having a really nice guitar that YOU love though will make a difference.

 

3) Styles: You might find your styles change. With your range of musical styles, I'd imagine an LP-style like an H-150 or H-157 would fit in just fine. Don't feel like you have to get one for the really high-gain stuff; you can probably do a lot with rock-orientated pickups and the right pedal. That said, if your current style means you HAVE to get paint-blistering hot uber-gain, you might just get some super-hot pickups (passive or something like EMG actives), maybe even just deciding that right now you NEED a 7-string Ibanez RG with high-output pickups and a Floyd Rose because the H-150 lacks the clarity in Drop A with a Metal Zone and two other guitarists shredding with you. I would ask, how heavy is your music? Any bands or songs that personify the heaviest of the range you're going for?

 

I think you can do metal pretty well with an LP-style. That said, if you really need your guitar to do really high-gain low drop-tuned music, something like an RG or even a Baritone guitar might be more in line with what you're looking for. Maybe even a Baritone LP-style with a tremolo and high-output pickups would be worth pursuing. It all kind of depends.

[Millennium Maestro]

First off, my opinion as a 43 yr old formerly in an Alice in Chains tribute... These guitars are built better than a Les Paul and can handle everything a LP can as stated earlier.

 

I have a 150 setup with 11-54 and it handles the whole guitar being tuned down a full step with drop d like a champ, I have also played 440 stuff with a low B. Not as radical as you but still these guitars shine.

 

Now the downside for you... schecters have a duncan designed JB clone in most guitars, you will need to find a modified/used guitar to get the sound you like... Heritage likes to use vintage based pickups and you are most likely use to high output pickups.

 

If you want to start a Private message(PM) with me it is entirely possible I might have something you may be interested in... I use Duncan Distortions, which I would highly recommend for you, I also think the 157 to be the perfect choice for you... Ebony board and maple cap would help keep your sound out of the muddy territory.

 

Hey good luck!!

 

Ps. buy used, if you are not happy you can turn the intrument and recover most of your funds!

[Omar]

Hey Omar,

 

Others can speak to downtuning, however the impression I've gotten is heavy downtuning is probably best left to the 25.5" scales and heavy-gauge strings. Still, others will have more hands-on knowledge of that than me and speak of what

 

High gain; an H-157 (or H-150, I would not discount that, they're pretty much like an LP Standard) should be able to hand just about anything you can throw at it. Just look at who's used Les Pauls (or Heritage H-150's, ESP LP clones, etc.); James & Kirk of Metallica, Alex Skolnick of Testament, Jerry Cantrell of Alice in Chains, In Flames, etc.

 

A few things to consider:

 

1) Pickup Change: If you get an H-150/157 with Seth Lovers, you will probably need something else for your favorite Black Metal covers.

 

 

Yeah, I'd probably have to get some Seymour Duncans in there or something, though I don't want to change the sound too much I still want to preserve that warm classic sound that I love about Heritage guitars. Standard pick ups are nice, but I like some high gain stuff. Also, I really don't like Black Metal...I'm more into melodic death or like Devin Townsend's Strapping Young Lad would be as far as I'd go.

 

2) Quality over Quantity: I'm older than you, but still only 33 years old. It's worth noting a nice H-150 could be something you will want to keep the rest of your life. I can't say I'd feel the same about a VMNT (although those do seem pretty nice) or a Schecter. Having a really nice guitar that YOU love though will make a difference.

 

Yeah, that's another thing. I've never really had a guitar that I'd never consider selling. The Wings of Death VMNT has a gorgeous finish, but Dave Mustaine changes endorsements faster than I change underwear...so chances are he'll leave Dean soon for another company and have another awesome finish on his guitar. A C-7 FR is a really nice instrument, however it's also EXTREMELY replaceable. They're made every year, and they can be found just about anywhere new for about a grand or so.

 

3) Styles: You might find your styles change. With your range of musical styles, I'd imagine an LP-style like an H-150 or H-157 would fit in just fine. Don't feel like you have to get one for the really high-gain stuff; you can probably do a lot with rock-orientated pickups and the right pedal. That said, if your current style means you HAVE to get paint-blistering hot uber-gain, you might just get some super-hot pickups (passive or something like EMG actives), maybe even just deciding that right now you NEED a 7-string Ibanez RG with high-output pickups and a Floyd Rose because the H-150 lacks the clarity in Drop A with a Metal Zone and two other guitarists shredding with you. I would ask, how heavy is your music? Any bands or songs that personify the heaviest of the range you're going for?

 

Heh. It's odd...as I've gotten older I've gotten into way heavier stuff but I've also gotten into cleaner stuff too like Reign of Kindo and ***GASPS*** acoustic solo guitar like Andy McKee. The heaviest I'd probably go would be like Nevermore (why I got into the seven string thing, well Loomis and Steve Vai's seven string stuff), Strapping Young Lad, and Children of Bodom. I dunno if I'd get into anything much heavier than that...I kinda hate heavy for the sake of heavy. I mean, my current style doesn't really demand to be in C# all the time, but I'd like to be able to play stuff in C# or Drop or Open C from time to time. As to a Seven String RG, hells to the no. I hate the Edge III trems they put on those things. I really liked the ZR bridge that Ibanez puts on their S series guitars, but hate the Edge III trems, they barely keep the guitar in tune and they're horrible in the Winter time.

 

 

I think you can do metal pretty well with an LP-style. That said, if you really need your guitar to do really high-gain low drop-tuned music, something like an RG or even a Baritone guitar might be more in line with what you're looking for. Maybe even a Baritone LP-style with a tremolo and high-output pickups would be worth pursuing. It all kind of depends.

 

 

Yeah, that's another thing I was thinking...I can get like a Flying V Shaped Schecter or something without a trem for like 500 bucks new and even cheaper if I can find one used...25.5 inch scale and EMGs. EMGs don't do cleans all that well, but why should anything further than a step down be clean?

[Omar]

First off, my opinion as a 43 yr old formerly in an Alice in Chains tribute... These guitars are built better than a Les Paul and can handle everything a LP can as stated earlier.

 

I have a 150 setup with 11-54 and it handles the whole guitar being tuned down a full step with drop d like a champ, I have also played 440 stuff with a low B. Not as radical as you but still these guitars shine.

 

Yeah, Heritage has the best build quality I've ever seen. You can feel it holding them in your hands, it's unbelievable. I've played Custom Shop Gibsons, and they feel like toys compared to Heritage Guitars. So while usually 24.75 scales get muddy down turned, I was wondering if Heritage guitars would handle it any better.

 

 

Now the downside for you... schecters have a duncan designed JB clone in most guitars, you will need to find a modified/used guitar to get the sound you like... Heritage likes to use vintage based pickups and you are most likely use to high output pickups.

 

If you want to start a Private message(PM) with me it is entirely possible I might have something you may be interested in... I use Duncan Distortions, which I would highly recommend for you, I also think the 157 to be the perfect choice for you... Ebony board and maple cap would help keep your sound out of the muddy territory.

 

Hey good luck!!

 

Ps. buy used, if you are not happy you can turn the intrument and recover most of your funds!

 

 

Yeah, the Schecters I was looking at have EMGs in it and Heritage Guitars have nice pick ups but not really the kind you'd like to put a lot of gain through. And yeah...used is always the way to go. I would never buy an instrument new unless I was POSITIVE that it was what I wanted. I'm not old enough to have that kind of judgement on a guitar that costs over 500 bucks.

[FredZepp]

I imagine that the set-up is the real crucial part of doing the lower tunings .

I do dropped D an DADGAD and that's about it.

The only real issues that I've run into with higher gain is on un-potted pickups and having to control the squeal.

The 157's have a nice snap to them, I doubt if muddyness is an issue very often.

 

Obliviously the 157 is great for classic rock and clean.. but with a good set-up and potted modern pickups there is no reason that a high gain tone should be problematic.

 

On a used one you'll want to make sure that the neck is to your liking...

[peteraltongreen]

I have 2 Heritages,love them & I always used standard tuning.So,why am I writing.It's about the old 'Hippie'. I used to work in a guitar shop,and however the customer 'saw' me,I was a salesman first.It was my job to sell.The fact I didn't like where some of that stock went was immaterial.Go down your local shop,talk to the man.He has bills to pay like the rest of us.You never know,he might just like what you do,you might just get a new friend,and he may have a wealth of musical knowledge you can freely pick at.The attached photo is 1973.I'm the one stood in the middle with the Mexican moustache.We were called 'The Ferriby Hillbillies',and just recorded.That era never lasted very long for me.Like Keith Richard from the Stones said 'I really don't remember,man !'

Peter Alton Green

[Halowords]

About the heaviest band I can think of that uses Les Pauls or the like (at least some of the time) is Opeth. In Flames can get up there as a Melodic Metal. Not sure how much either of those two downtune though, and Mike Akerfeldt is mainly a PRS 25" scale guy, but he has used (probably still does from what I last read) Les Pauls.

 

Also, Opeth is a great band that seems intelligent about doing a heavy sound but with great style, then they do a folksy acoustic song, and it seems purposeful and really very musical. I'd even throw in Slipknot (although they use, I believe, stop-tail Ibanez RG's, S-series, or the like). So yeah, I get the desire to have really heavy sounds and then be able to do some ridiculously clean, warm sounding stuff. I think there are some bands who do a great job of utilizing clean and softer sounds and then using really heavy sounds.

 

Since you've already got a guitar that can do your Drop A through C#, I'd say a 157 would be a great pick up. You can experiment with drop tunings to see how low it can effectively go and with what gauge strings. It would not be the worst idea to have it as a standard tuning, Eb, D, or something more within the normal realm and have guitars set up for various tunings, sounds, etc., etc. If you've got the disease, you'll probably get more guitars, and a Les Paul style is a nice one to have on-hand.

 

One final thought/question: EMG's played clean. I've talked to at least a few people (granted in the minority) that like EMG actives (81's & 85's in general, but a few others) for cleaner playing and their dead-quiet sound when not in use. They have liked the neutral sound and the ability to color the sound with their gear. Anybody else experiment with this?

 

I don't play with EMG's, but I could see how they could make something like the cleaner parts of Metallica's Fade to Black seem kind of haunting because of its sterile sort of sound. You also have David Gilmore using EMG single coils and I thought Paul Gilbert uses or used EMG's on one album because the neutral sound allowed him to really shape the sound with his gear. Neither are super-heavy, and Paul Gilbert apparently uses a LOT of effects so he desired a really sterile sound to start with since he was going to be adding a ton of processing to it. Heck, Vince Gill uses EMGs (single-coils, but still)! Just saying, in general you are probably right. However, when faced with those examples I started wondering if EMGs and other active pickups might be useful if you got creative with them in non-metal forms of music. A bit off-topic, and I like the more organic sound (and cost-saving by not buying 9V batteries everytime I play!) I associate with a nice set of passive pickups, but it is kind of something I've been curious in trying at some point if I ever get the chance and have money lying around to pick up a guitar that I might end up hating.

[SlappyTappy]

Strapping Young Lad, NICE! Always nice to see another Devin Townsend fan.

 

Anyway, I've owned/played every guitar in question here. My H150 is simply the best guitar I've ever owned. It HAS to do with the wood...it just sounds better than anything. The Duncan 59's are plenty to handle all the output I need and still have a great clean sound. I fell out of favor with active pickups a long time ago. I currently play mine thru a Krank Rev Jr. and get just about every wicked metal tone I desire, with the organic, lively "roar" that I can only get with Duncans (Dimarzios always sound too "even" and "compresssed" to me).

 

Quality vs quantity, get a guitar that you will fall in love with and last a lifetime. My Heritage is just that. If you have played the guitar in the store and already fallen in love with it, follow your instincts. Buying guitars online just isn't the same as playing it in person and knowing it's "the one." Although with some companies you can bet on the quality a little more consistently, and from what I have experienced, Heritage has a great track record.

[JeffB]

Some people like these for drop tunings. DR DTT

The only real problem I see is the p/up's, though some think the Schallers in the 157's are actually quite good high gain p/ups.

Just talk to the guy in the store. Take your own head in to test out the guitar with maybe.

[GuitArtMan]

Welcome Omar. I can't help you with the drop tuned stuff as it's not something I do or am interested in. I can, however, say I must be getting old if U2 is considered "classic rock".

Old and in the way InSaneDiego,

Bob.

[smurph1]

Hey Omar..Welcome to the HOC!! I can't speak to the downtuning stuff because I'm an "Old Hippie" But as to the quality of Heritage guitars, they are top notch!! Get one, and it will be your "go to" guitar for a long time!!

[Omar]

I have 2 Heritages,love them & I always used standard tuning.So,why am I writing.It's about the old 'Hippie'. I used to work in a guitar shop,and however the customer 'saw' me,I was a salesman first.It was my job to sell.The fact I didn't like where some of that stock went was immaterial.Go down your local shop,talk to the man.He has bills to pay like the rest of us.You never know,he might just like what you do,you might just get a new friend,and he may have a wealth of musical knowledge you can freely pick at.The attached photo is 1973.I'm the one stood in the middle with the Mexican moustache.We were called 'The Ferriby Hillbillies',and just recorded.That era never lasted very long for me.Like Keith Richard from the Stones said 'I really don't remember,man !'

Peter Alton Green

 

 

 

Oh the Old Hippie is the man, I love the guy. It's just a smaller shop and I really don't want to piss him off and down tune his nice stuff...I'd just feel like a jerk. Dude knows a lot, and he's a great guy.

[Halowords]

Oh the Old Hippie is the man, I love the guy. It's just a smaller shop and I really don't want to piss him off and down tune his nice stuff...I'd just feel like a jerk. Dude knows a lot, and he's a great guy.

 

I'd just let him know you drop tune and want to get a feel for the guitar that way. I don't think that'd be a huge deal. If you plug it through a Metal Zone, turn the volume up to window-shattering levels, start barking like Glen Benton, and throwing out pinch harmonics and letting them feedback in a shrill customer-repellent loop, that might be another. Down tuning can be changed pretty quick & easily, especially if you are serious about buying one. Making a spectacle or being rude is something different. So unless my guitar-shop etiquette is off, you should be fine. I'd just ask him if it's o.k. if you tried it down-tuned, test it out, re-tune it, thank him, and be off on your merry way.

 

Good luck though! I think you'll like having an H-157. The H-150 series are nice guitars and for your range I think you'll find them usable and a lot of fun to play. And you're in luck as it's a total buyer's market out there and used Heritages are a pretty good bargain.

[pro-fusion]

As a guy who plays an H157 with a lot of gain (more than most metal guys, actually), I can tell you that a 157 is better than most modern Gibson LPs for metal because the 157 is not chambered or weight-relieved. As such, the 157 gives you the classic heavy roar that the old '70s Les Paul Customs did. My 157 cuts right through the highest amount of gain you can throw at it with perfect clarity and bite. It's an awesome metal guitar that, set up right, will stomp on any of those other guitars you mentioned.

 

With the right strings, you'll have no problems with C# tuning, but drop A might be more of a problem due to the short scale length. Personally, I think that short-scale guitars sound great with C# tuning--much thicker than you'd think. I've found on 24.75" guitars that you simply need to go one string gauge set thicker than you would on a 25.5" scale guitar to get the same results.

 

You WILL have to change the pickups on almost any 157 you buy used, however. The older ones came with Schaller pickups that might be ok, but the Duncan '59s Heritage puts in the new ones are totally inadequate for metal. A set of Duncan Distortions totally rock in a 157, and the Pearly Gates would also be perfect if you want nice 'chunk' but a little less hair on your sound.

[Omar]

As a guy who plays an H157 with a lot of gain (more than most metal guys, actually), I can tell you that a 157 is better than most modern Gibson LPs for metal because the 157 is not chambered or weight-relieved. As such, the 157 gives you the classic heavy roar that the old '70s Les Paul Customs did. My 157 cuts right through the highest amount of gain you can throw at it with perfect clarity and bite. It's an awesome metal guitar that, set up right, will stomp on any of those other guitars you mentioned.

 

With the right strings, you'll have no problems with C# tuning, but drop A might be more of a problem due to the short scale length. Personally, I think that short-scale guitars sound great with C# tuning--much thicker than you'd think. I've found on 24.75" guitars that you simply need to go one string gauge set thicker than you would on a 25.5" scale guitar to get the same results.

 

You WILL have to change the pickups on almost any 157 you buy used, however. The older ones came with Schaller pickups that might be ok, but the Duncan '59s Heritage puts in the new ones are totally inadequate for metal. A set of Duncan Distortions totally rock in a 157, and the Pearly Gates would also be perfect if you want nice 'chunk' but a little less hair on your sound.

 

 

THANK YOU, I figured most Heritage players were more sophisticated than most metal players and mostly played in E and never bothered down tuning too deep. I'm glad I met one that plays with a lot of gain and down tuned. After playing a Heritage, I'll never buy a Gibson Les Paul. The Explorer, and MAYBE an SG if I can get one cheaper are the only Gibson models I'd ever consider buying. Drop A is like the LOWEST that I'd ever go. I've typically only played 25.5 scale guitars and when I played 24.75 back when I was a newer player and couldn't really tell the difference between the sounds. I know different guitars handle different down tunings differently due to the weight of the guitar. Right now I'm meaning towards getting the H157 now and trying to find a used C-7FR (doubtful) or get one later so I can get into seven string sounds, and then get the Flying V sometime later on in life or so. The White Explorer is still the one guitar I've been lusting after for a while...Damn you James Hetfield.