Acoustically Inclined Archtops

[Halowords]

Short version*, I am leaning toward an eventual purchase or trade-toward a straight-up archtop. I'm thinking an acoustic, or preferably one that has (or can have) floating pickups. However, I'd want it primarily for acoustic/unplugged playing.

 

I'd appreciate insight on the following:

 

Wood Choices: I'm thinking of Mahogany neck, back, & sides w/ Spruce top. Any reason I should consider anything else? I ask because that seems pretty specific in a fairly heavy Maple "go to" sort of field from what I've seen. I'm really interested in a nice smooth, round, rich, deep sounding guitar. Yes one that "sings" and has enough brightness to not be dull or too gloomy, but I prefer a very round sound.

 

Models: No, not Candice Swanepoel from Victoria's Secret. Hey, wait a minute . . . Oh yeah, guitars. Anyway, I'm open to models (of guitars) to consider. I would prefer a Florentine cut from an aesthetic perspective, I am primarily thinking the H-575 Mahogany if I could ever find one that was not cut for pickups. I would be open to hearing about other models that might fit the same bill, like the Sweet 16 or the Henry Johnson, and even non-Heritage models (although at this point I do have a strong bias toward Heritage.

 

Pickups: Speaking of pickups, is there any way to get floating P90's? If it's primarily an acoustic, should I just mic it if I ever gig and screw the pickups entirely?

 

Scale: This might impact the model selection. However, how big of an impact does scale play in the sound of an archtop? I know how it effects electrics, but I've really never found much that I couldn't do with my 24.75" scale guitars on the electric guitar that I'd want to do on an acoustic/Jazz guitar. I can play either though, so I'd be interested if one tends to be more-or-less desirable for a Jazzbox (in terms of overtones, difficulty of fingerings considering where Jazz tends to get played on the neck, etc.), or if I should just stick with the 24.75" scale since that's what I'm pretty much used to.

 

Any advice is welcome. Thanks!

 

*Slightly longer version, I'm thinking about maybe, possibly trading my recently acquired H-535 for a full-hollow archtop. We'll see, I'm just afraid it is too similar to my Prospect Custom (also recently acquired) to warrant keeping and I might have to get rid of one to get said archtop without my wife having a cow. At this point just bouncing ideas off the wall as I'd like to get an archtop regardless, and maybe my wife settles down and I can keep them all if I wait long enough. Regardless, that got me to thinking and ultimately this thread.

[NoNameBand]

I'm no expert on archtops though I have one. However, the ones that I have seen to be at the top of the food chain seem to be made of figured maple top, sides and back with some minor variations in the wood selection process. See the link (http://www.guitarsale.com/node.aspx?ID=24) at guitar sale in the Archtop section. These are high end guitars: Gibson L-10, L-7, L-5, Super 400 and Le Grande. I believe most all of these are maple top, sides and back with the occasional Sitka Spruce top. The woods you have mentioned seem to be most used in Flat tops or Western style guitars. Even in the Flat Tops, The Gibson J-200 is all maple and it is purported to be the top of the line. Additionally, flat top/Western guitars use a different set of strings which contributes to the tone. Archtops were originally designed to be louder (pre-electric) than flat tops with a completely different character. My 1952 Vega Archtop has a figured maple top, sides and back with a mahogany neck with P-90's pups.

This may be something you would want to look in to before making your final decision. There are some experts that will hopefully, chime in soon, hopefully, Patrick will catch this one. He has a few Archtops and is very knowledgeable about them.

Good luck,

Mark

[ingeneri]

David,

 

I generally play unplugged at home, and use my Super Eagle with mounted pups for a more electric KB or Wes sound on gigs. In general, you should opt for a floating pup as this will preserve the acoustic qualities of the top. Most classic, acoustic archtops had spruce tops and maple backs, sides, and necks. I've never played a mahogany back guitar, but haven't found much of a difference between the mahogany neck on my H575 and the maple one on my Super Eagle. I do find a major difference between the 24.75 and 25.5" scale lenghts, and generally prefer the latter both for feel and tone. X-bracing is generally viewed as better for an acoustic tone than parallel, and many acoustic guys will swear not having a cutaway greatly enhances their tone.

 

For Heritage models I'd go for a Golden Eagle (17" bout, carved spruce top, and floating pup) or Sweet 16 (16" bout, carved spruce top, floating pup, and I think 25" Johnny Smith scale), Super Eagle (18" bout, carved spruce top, usually mounted Pup but can customize). If you're determined to go with the mahogany, I think the discontinued Eagles were made that way.

 

I think the Heritage models all come with traditional Gibbie parallel bracing, but you see plenty of custom x-braced guitars on Wolfe's website. Scale lengths can also be customized, so you can get 25" on a new Golden or Super Eagle pretty easily. Or you can find an old Johnny Smith guitar (Heritage, Gibson, or Guild) that has all this spec.

 

For pickups, I'm not aware of there being any floating P-90s. There were the old Mcarty floating single coils (that look like P-90s but are reportedly different) and the famous Dearmonds. Both of these will rival the cost of your guitar. Kent Armstrong makes a floating single coil you can get at http://www.archtop.com. I played one once but didn't have enough time or quiet to really check out the tone.

 

Of course, if money is no object you can always just by a vintage D'angelico or Stromberg for $50,000 or a new Benedetto for a cheap $20,000!

[koula901]

Yep, I, too, was thinking that Patrick could contribute to this.

Questions: what is, and what is the purpose of a "floating" pickup?

[Halowords]

Hey Mark,

 

I'm no expert on archtops though I have one. However, the ones that I have seen to be at the top of the food chain seem to be made of figured maple top, sides and back with some minor variations in the wood selection process. See the link (http://www.guitarsale.com/node.aspx?ID=24) at guitar sale in the Archtop section. These are high end guitars: Gibson L-10, L-7, L-5, Super 400 and Le Grande. I believe most all of these are maple top, sides and back with the occasional Sitka Spruce top.

 

That is true. However, I have wondered if that is due to either 1) Aesthetics or 2) Symphony Considerations. By that I mean the figured Maple looks better AND Maple cuts through better in a live & unamplified setting. Not sure those would necessarily be of great importance to me or not. However, I'll listen to reason if they are or should be.

 

The woods you have mentioned seem to be most used in Flat tops or Western style guitars. Even in the Flat Tops, The Gibson J-200 is all maple and it is purported to be the top of the line. Additionally, flat top/Western guitars use a different set of strings which contributes to the tone. Archtops were originally designed to be louder (pre-electric) than flat tops with a completely different character. My 1952 Vega Archtop has a figured maple top, sides and back with a mahogany neck with P-90's pups.

 

Good points.

 

This may be something you would want to look in to before making your final decision. There are some experts that will hopefully, chime in soon, hopefully, Patrick will catch this one. He has a few Archtops and is very knowledgeable about them.

Good luck,

Mark

 

Thanks! Part of why I ask is so I don't unfairly bias toward or away from certain good options. Heck, maybe for my needs an all-maple flattop would be a great choice. It's possible. I'm more than willing to be proven wrong about this or steered into a different direction, so I really appreciate the insight. Just trying to get the variables and figure out what is the most likely best fit for what I'm trying to get.

[ingeneri]

See response above, it preserves acoustic tone by not cutting huge holes in the carved top. Originally these were aftermarket Dearmonds slapped on acoustic archtops, but a floating HB was a major innovation of the Gibson Johnny Smith. It's generally the preferred pickup configuration for most boutique archtop builders starting, and led by, Benedetto.

[Halowords]

Questions: what is, and what is the purpose of a "floating" pickup?

 

As I understand it, they're pickups that generally attach to the pickguard. Regardless, they "float" meaning you don't cut holes to install them into the front of the guitar. The benefit as I have been told being a preservation of acoustic tone (as there's no real advantage to cutting square holes into the top of the guitar). It's reportedly not a huge deal, but figured if I'm going to be getting this mainly as an acoustic guitar, it might be worth considering.

[ingeneri]

However, the ones that I have seen to be at the top of the food chain seem to be made of figured maple top, sides and back with some minor variations in the wood selection process. See the link (http://www.guitarsale.com/node.aspx?ID=24) at guitar sale in the Archtop section. These are high end guitars: Gibson L-10, L-7, L-5, Super 400 and Le Grande. I believe most all of these are maple top, sides and back with the occasional Sitka Spruce top.

 

Incorrect, the Super 400 and L5, Johnny Smith (aka Le Grande), Guild Artist Award, Stromberg, D'angelico, and original Epiphone's all have carved spruce tops. Except the 575, you generally only see maple tops on laminate electrics like the Es-175, Jim Hall's D'aquisto, or the modern day Sadowsky and Benedetto laminates (Bravo, Bambino, etc...) Even today, most carved acoustic boutique guitars (Benedetto, Buscarinon, Campellone, etc...) have carved spruce tops as they tend to be more lively and resonant. This is one of the things that make them more prone to feedback, and way many builders prefer maple laminate for electic archtops.

[ingeneri]

Something else to consider would be whether you want to get a customized wider 1 3/4" nut. These are found on the Johnny Smith guitars and are generally considered by many to be better for chord melody playing.

 

This is a great website for walking you through the options for an archtop, and Jeff Hale is a great dealer to work with:

 

http://www.jhalemusic.com/pages/archTopFAQs.html

[Halowords]

Hey ingeneri,

 

David,

 

I generally play unplugged at home, and use my Super Eagle with mounted pups for a more electric KB or Wes sound on gigs. In general, you should opt for a floating pup as this will preserve the acoustic qualities of the top. Most classic, acoustic archtops had spruce tops and maple backs, sides, and necks. I've never played a mahogany back guitar, but haven't found much of a difference between the mahogany neck on my H575 and the maple one on my Super Eagle. I do find a major difference between the 24.75 and 25.5" scale lenghts, and generally prefer the latter both for feel and tone. X-bracing is generally viewed as better for an acoustic tone than parallel, and many acoustic guys will swear not having a cutaway greatly enhances their tone.

 

Good stuff.

 

For Heritage models I'd go for a Golden Eagle (17" bout, carved spruce top, and floating pup) or Sweet 16 (16" bout, carved spruce top, floating pup, and I think 25" Johnny Smith scale), Super Eagle (18" bout, carved spruce top, usually mounted Pup but can customize). If you're determined to go with the mahogany, I think the discontinued Eagles were made that way.

 

If the Mahogany doesn't make a huge difference I'm not necessarily going to jump mountains to avoid Maple neck a/o back a/o sides, but good to know.

 

I think the Heritage models all come with traditional Gibbie parallel bracing, but you see plenty of custom x-braced guitars on Wolfe's website. Scale lengths can also be customized, so you can get 25" on a new Golden or Super Eagle pretty easily. Or you can find an old Johnny Smith guitar (Heritage, Gibson, or Guild) that has all this spec.

 

For pickups, I'm not aware of there being any floating P-90s. There were the old Mcarty floating single coils (that look like P-90s but are reportedly different) and the famous Dearmonds. Both of these will rival the cost of your guitar. Kent Armstrong makes a floating single coil you can get at http://www.archtop.com. I played one once but didn't have enough time or quiet to really check out the tone.

 

Yeah, the floating P-90's was just a cool kind of "what if." Uber expensive pickups might have to wait.

 

Of course, if money is no object you can always just by a vintage D'angelico or Stromberg for $50,000 or a new Benedetto for a cheap $20,000!

 

Sadly, it is. Not that they would not be cool, but I'd probably have to make sure my wife did not then use said $20K+ guitar to smite me on the head with.

[Patrick]

As many of you know, arch tops are my passion. Virtually everything ingeneri said is correct. The only surprise for me was that he left out a reference to the great Tal Farlow . . . who insisted on a laminate top and back on his "Tal Farlow" model Gibson for exactly the reasons the ingeneri pointed out.

 

Halowords . . . based upon what you specified as your needs for this arch top, and it's intended usage as primarily an acoustic arch top and only very occasionally as an electric . . . my recommendations would be for an X braced, solid carved spruce top . . . SOLID maple rims and back . . . ebony fret board . . ebony bridge with a bridge base that makes FULL contact to the solid carved spruce top/sound board. Floating pup with BOTH volume and tone controls . . . and have the controls mounted to the finger rest. If cost is an issue, you will be best served by an Eagle Classic with the above specs. But, good luck finding one! If you take a look at the Golden Eagle that I posted last night on the "for sale or trade" thread, then retracted the sale . . . that would be the perfect guitar for you. But, used they sell for $2,500 to $3,000 US dollars. If you ever heard that guitar acoustically, you would never want to plug it in. But, that's a Heritage arch top for ya . . . they'll do it every time!!

[Halowords]

Hey Patrick,

 

As many of you know, arch tops are my passion. Virtually everything ingeneri said is correct. The only surprise for me was that he left out a reference to the great Tal Farlow . . . who insisted on a laminate top and back on his "Tal Farlow" model Gibson for exactly the reasons the ingeneri pointed out.

 

Halowords . . . based upon what you specified as your needs for this arch top, and it's intended usage as primarily an acoustic arch top and only very occasionally as an electric . . . my recommendations would be for an X braced, solid carved spruce top . . . SOLID maple rims and back . . . ebony fret board . . ebony bridge with a bridge base that makes FULL contact to the solid carved spruce top/sound board. Floating pup with BOTH volume and tone controls . . . and have the controls mounted to the finger rest. If cost is an issue, you will be best served by an Eagle Classic with the above specs. But, good luck finding one! If you take a look at the Golden Eagle that I posted last night on the "for sale or trade" thread, then retracted the sale . . . that would be the perfect guitar for you. But, used they sell for $2,500 to $3,000 US dollars. If you ever heard that guitar acoustically, you would never want to plug it in. But, that's a Heritage arch top for ya . . . they'll do it every time!!

 

I really appreciate it. At worst, even if I know something like a Golden Eagle would be my best bet and it's outside of my budget right now, I'm fine waiting. Granted, I'd love to have one drop into my lap right now, but I'd be totally fine waiting and saving up for it. For now, I've got enough guitars to happily survive with what I have in-hand. It's just one of those things where there is definitely the appeal and I would ultimately like a really nice acoustic that would meet the aforementioned stated needs. Thanks again though! That is a helpful list of specs.

[byrdland]

Hey Patrick,

 

 

 

I really appreciate it. At worst, even if I know something like a Golden Eagle would be my best bet and it's outside of my budget right now, I'm fine waiting. Granted, I'd love to have one drop into my lap right now, but I'd be totally fine waiting and saving up for it. For now, I've got enough guitars to happily survive with what I have in-hand. It's just one of those things where there is definitely the appeal and I would ultimately like a really nice acoustic that would meet the aforementioned stated needs. Thanks again though! That is a helpful list of specs.

 

Ditto on the carved spruce top and maple back and sides. There's a Heritage Eagle (1986) on Ebay with 4 days left in the auction. The current bid is $1,000.

[Genericmusic]

The Eagle Classic is your best bet. One incredible guitar and a very nice sounding instrument. Happy hunting!

[big bob]

I might suggest a mahogany Back and spruce top 575, or if you can find one rhythm eagle.

I have a hog back and sides spruce top 757 custom acoustic and it sounds sweet.

[Genericmusic]

I might suggest a mahogany Back and spruce top 575, or if you can find one rhythm eagle.

I have a hog back and sides spruce top 757 custom acoustic and it sounds sweet.

 

Wow! That is one fine looking instrument.

[Spectrum13]

If you are thinking P90 floating, for the cost of an email you might ask Jason Lollar and/or Kent Armstrong if they can put one together. Don't know if you don't ask. They do customs stuff anyway so he might have done it before.

 

Just saying.

[Halowords]

If you are thinking P90 floating, for the cost of an email you might ask Jason Lollar and/or Kent Armstrong if they can put one together. Don't know if you don't ask. They do customs stuff anyway so he might have done it before.

 

Just saying.

 

You know, that might be worth asking about. I'll fire one off tomorrow and see what they say.