Comparing Fender amps

[bolero]

a '72 SF twin reverb was my only amp for about 5 years, I loved that thing

 

 

sure it was a beast to move but the cleans were fantastic, reverb lush, trem excellent....they take pedals extremely well too

 

 

if you can find them for $500 used they are a steal

 

 

funny: I eventually got it blackfaced, but it sounded MUCH better stock SF

 

 

I eventually sold it rather than re-SF the circuit

[Gitfiddler]

I've always loved the cleans from a good old Twin Reverb. A good buddy of mine is a phenominal jazzer and plays through a 'Twin 15'. Talk about huge sound and great tone!!

 

The amp is just way too heavy for him however...and brings a much more practical Rivera Suprema to most gigs.

 

Heavy amps kill my groove. I love the tone of my Mark IV, but after taking it up two flights of stairs one Halloween night gig, I put it in the garage for storage...then bought a Blues Deluxe and matching extension speaker stack. Now no more backaches.

[Patrick]

I've always loved the cleans from a good old Twin Reverb. A good buddy of mine is a phenominal jazzer and plays through a 'Twin 15'. Talk about huge sound and great tone!!

 

The amp is just way too heavy for him however...and brings a much more practical Rivera Suprema to most gigs.

 

Heavy amps kill my groove. I love the tone of my Mark IV, but after taking it up two flights of stairs one Halloween night gig, I put it in the garage for storage...then bought a Blues Deluxe and matching extension speaker stack. Now no more backaches.

 

I had the same experience with 2 flights of stairs .. but with a 1978 Ampeg 100 watt 2 X 12 VT22. What an amp! If I ever knew I was going to become a jazzer, I would still have that monster. Has to be the heaviest amp I have ever experienced. But, sooooooooo much head room. Extremely clean with nothing lacking.

[DetroitBlues]

Clapton uses a Vintage reissue Twin 40 watts on stage in concert. Most guys are using 50 watt heads or combos with 50 watts or less. The days of 100 watt amps being in high demand went out with the Shure Vocal Master PA. Once the Altec Voice of the Theaters came out, guys started running their amps through the PA. Less to carry. Carrying a Fender Twin is almost as bad as carrying a Hammond B-3 without the dollies. I know guys that have them from the old days and keep them. I don't know anybody that is looking for one now though. Great clean sound, too much power to break up at lower volume like in a club or something. I have Three old BGW 550 power amps I used to use in a tri-power syatem. Great amps/boat anchors. They weigh 85 lbs each. We used to carry those along with some other signal processing equipment, in an amp rack with casters & 8 handles. It took 4 guys to lift it up in the truck.

 

I thought clapton switch to Soldano's back in the 90's?

[Steiner]

I thought clapton switch to Soldano's back in the 90's?

 

He did use an SLO in the 90s. Last summer he was playing live through tweed Fenders.

 

The Soldano SLO, Bogner XTC, VHT Pitbull, Marshall JCM 80... Long live the 100 watt monsters!

[yoslate]

He did use an SLO in the 90s. Last summer he was playing live through tweed Fenders.

 

Long live the 100 watt monsters!

 

Those tweed Twin re-issues had a great review in The Tone Quest Report a few months ago. Long live my achin' back!

[Gitfiddler]

I had the same experience with 2 flights of stairs .. but with a 1978 Ampeg 100 watt 2 X 12 VT22. What an amp! If I ever knew I was going to become a jazzer, I would still have that monster. Has to be the heaviest amp I have ever experienced. But, sooooooooo much head room. Extremely clean with nothing lacking.

 

 

Speaking of heavy VT-22 combos...Back in the 70's I kept mine in the trunk of my (Don't laugh!) '63 Dodge Dart. That amp was so heavy that I had to adjust the headlights downward so they shone on the road and not the sky!

[bolero]

haaaa...!!

 

seriously for the price of an old SF twin, and such a bomber build, I'm surprised people are buying BF reissues new

[tsp17]

The '65 Twin Reverb Reissue is a terrific sounding amp. nothing else captures the tone of say late '60s Kenny Burrell (my personal favorite!). i hate to say it, but i just sold mine yesterday. too big and heavy for me and took up too much space in my jam room. but it will always be a favorite (except to my back). i played through input two of the reverb/vibrato channel. medium dark, full, round. it does color the tone and is not transparent.

 

nothing like it.

[NoNameBand]

I had the same experience with 2 flights of stairs .. but with a 1978 Ampeg 100 watt 2 X 12 VT22. What an amp! If I ever knew I was going to become a jazzer, I would still have that monster. Has to be the heaviest amp I have ever experienced. But, sooooooooo much head room. Extremely clean with nothing lacking.

 

Years ago, I played with a guy who had a great collection of old Gibby's ('53 Les Paul, '72 Les Paul Custom, '62 SG w/P-90's, '58 Flying V) and he played through a Pair of Ampeg V4's.

[NoNameBand]

I have seen Derek Trucks several times and he has played through twins as well. Question: When you see a guitarist with two Twin Reverbs on the stage, how is that he is playing through BOTH amps? Is it called bi-amping??

 

Bi-amping or Tri-amping is where you use Two amps for 2 cabinets. Usually, when you split Hi's, Mids and/or Lows in a PA. The idea is to not share power with the low's which will rob all of the power from the mid's & hi's.

[Guest HRB853370]

The '65 Twin Reverb Reissue is a terrific sounding amp. nothing else captures the tone of say late '60s Kenny Burrell (my personal favorite!). i hate to say it, but i just sold mine yesterday. too big and heavy for me and took up too much space in my jam room. but it will always be a favorite (except to my back). i played through input two of the reverb/vibrato channel. medium dark, full, round. it does color the tone and is not transparent.

 

nothing like it.

 

Interesting, I never thought of the Fender TR-RI as being a jazz amp. I will have to try it with my 575. I might be surprised!

[ingeneri]

Kenny Burrell is famous for using twins live. I've never read anything about it being modded in any way to address the volume issue, and Burrell (like most of the jazz greats) doesn't come across as a big gear head despite having owned some of the most spectacular guitars ever (50's 175,L5C with CC pickup, D'angelico NY'er, Epiphone Emporer Regent, Super 400, Benedetto, Heritage). He often sounds like he's running the amp pretty hot but turning the volume down on his guitar, in contrast to that digging in almost distorting tone like Charlie Christian, 50s Herb Ellis, or Grant Green. So maybe that is the trick?

 

As for recordings, there's alot of specualtion about what amp was in Rudy Van Gelder's studio. But, the web rumor I see most often is it was a Fender Deluxe.

[NoNameBand]

Kenny Burrell is famous for using twins live. I've never read anything about it being modded in any way to address the volume issue, and Burrell (like most of the jazz greats) doesn't come across as a big gear head despite having owned some of the most spectacular guitars ever (50's 175,L5C with CC pickup, D'angelico NY'er, Epiphone Emporer Regent, Super 400, Benedetto, Heritage). He often sounds like he's running the amp pretty hot but turning the volume down on his guitar, in contrast to that digging in almost distorting tone like Charlie Christian, 50s Herb Ellis, or Grant Green. So maybe that is the trick?

 

As for recordings, there's alot of specualtion about what amp was in Rudy Van Gelder's studio. But, the web rumor I see most often is it was a Fender Deluxe.

 

Its really hard to get a Twin to distort without turning the volume up to at least 5. I would never look at a Twin for distortion unless I had a high volume situation. It is the King of Clean though. Great Jazz amp. For Blues and Classic Rock, most guys I see playing clubs are most happy with 18-20 watts, 30 watts on the high side. That is a great wattage to naturally break up without overpowering the rest of the stage. The old Marshall Bluesbreaker 212 combo was 18 watts on its best day with fresh tubes. One of the best blues amps ever in my Humble opinion.

[Guest HRB853370]

Its really hard to get a Twin to distort without turning the volume up to at least 5. I would never look at a Twin for distortion unless I had a high volume situation. It is the King of Clean though. Great Jazz amp. For Blues and Classic Rock, most guys I see playing clubs are most happy with 18-20 watts, 30 watts on the high side. That is a great wattage to naturally break up without overpowering the rest of the stage. The old Marshall Bluesbreaker 212 combo was 18 watts on its best day with fresh tubes. One of the best blues amps ever in my Humble opinion.

 

Isn't that normal on most amps, volume knob at least 6 to start getting the amp to overdrive? I think your point was, it would be too freakin loud at number 5....in the first place.

[NoNameBand]

Isn't that normal on most amps, volume knob at least 6 to start getting the amp to overdrive? I think your point was, it would be too freakin loud at number 5....in the first place.

 

Exactly, a One watt amp, Volume set at 5-6 will distort at a very low volume. An 18-20 watt amp set at 5-6 will distort at a very good volume. Any watt amp (with attenuation is perfect) set at 5-6 will distort at any volume you want. I fear that a Twin at 5-6 is too freak'in loud for anyone to care how good it sounds. Especially, if you have an acoustic piano, electric keyboards or vocals and you depend on your monitors for stage balance.

In a perfect world, you would have a Two channel amp (like an Egnator Renegade 112 or 212) that has 40 watts or more for the clean channel and 18 watts for your dirty channel in One amp that is not too heavy to carry. The Egnator Renegade takes it a step further and lets you choose 6L6 power tubes for your clean channel @ 65 watts and EL 34 power tubes @ 18 watts for the dirty channel.

[Steiner]

You guys keep turning me to Terrible Ted for examples of "approved" musical "faux pas." In addition to screaming R&R and controlling his feedback whilst using a hollowbody guitar, he's also been described by bandmates to have his own "death zone" on stage. The zone is created by a wall of Fender Twins set to break up.

 

Granted, in the local pub, you may piss-off a few barkeeps with that volume. If you throw a couple acres of open sky around you and set the Twin to break up, you'll never get closer to heaven

[kbp810]

There is just something I love about bone rattling volume levels! ...well that is until it's over and my ears keep ringing for the next few days that follow.

[JeffB]

Just for a different perspective. Cant stay away from this thread. Feel like I got to offer up and alternative opinion.

Ive tried all manner of low wattage amps and have never been happy. I just prefer the sound of bigger wattage amps. 100w seems to be about where Im happiest. The 60w Fender Concert doesnt seem to break up. The speaker will but not the amp. I like that.

Even turned down low I seem to prefer my 100w amps over smaller 22,30,40 watt amps. Just fuller and more clarity. Its the sound I like. Seems like only higher wattage amps get that for me.

Two of my amps have multiple wattage selections. The Mesa 10,50,100. The Egnater 10,20,25,50,100. They never go off 100w. Even at 2:00am home volumes.

Its never been about volume as Im normally asked to turn up. The sounds/tones I get always seem to fit what Im doing and sound full and clear.

I recently played at a wake for a guy that used to be a singer in our band. The wake was really just a gathering/jam of people who he had played with over the years. I used my 100w Mesa LS and 212 cab and was surrounded by squawking little combos being played too loud. Quite often with no real full clean sound even when the volume was backed down. Its always been situations like this that keeps me away from jams. Little amps being played too loud so the owner can get the right sound. I think thats the reason they tend to play so loud. Unsure.

I dont think for a moment that 100w amps are too big or too loud. I think I have more control with a 100w amp. Definitely a fuller sound.

Seems to me that there would be so many songs I wouldnt be able to cover with any real authority or conviction playing through a wee 22-40w combo no matter what pedal I used.

As for weight, even with a back injury that forced me out of work for a few years I dont seem to struggle too much. Im 47 not 25. Not a strapping big fellow. Skinny and slight build in fact. I just dont seem to have the same problems as others do lugging gear around.

Im not saying any of this without having fully researching my options and preferences for sound/tone. I have enough amps, cabs, combos at my disposal to figure out what works for me and the band Im playing with.

One of the best sounds was a Twin and an extension 212 with a couple of stomp's in front.

Theres no right or wrong. But if weights an issue you are a bit limited.

[NoNameBand]

Just for a different perspective. Cant stay away from this thread. Feel like I got to offer up and alternative opinion.

Ive tried all manner of low wattage amps and have never been happy. I just prefer the sound of bigger wattage amps. 100w seems to be about where Im happiest. The 60w Fender Concert doesnt seem to break up. The speaker will but not the amp. I like that.

Even turned down low I seem to prefer my 100w amps over smaller 22,30,40 watt amps. Just fuller and more clarity. Its the sound I like. Seems like only higher wattage amps get that for me.

Two of my amps have multiple wattage selections. The Mesa 10,50,100. The Egnater 10,20,25,50,100. They never go off 100w. Even at 2:00am home volumes.

Its never been about volume as Im normally asked to turn up. The sounds/tones I get always seem to fit what Im doing and sound full and clear.

I recently played at a wake for a guy that used to be a singer in our band. The wake was really just a gathering/jam of people who he had played with over the years. I used my 100w Mesa LS and 212 cab and was surrounded by squawking little combos being played too loud. Quite often with no real full clean sound even when the volume was backed down. Its always been situations like this that keeps me away from jams. Little amps being played too loud so the owner can get the right sound. I think thats the reason they tend to play so loud. Unsure.

I dont think for a moment that 100w amps are too big or too loud. I think I have more control with a 100w amp. Definitely a fuller sound.

Seems to me that there would be so many songs I wouldnt be able to cover with any real authority or conviction playing through a wee 22-40w combo no matter what pedal I used.

As for weight, even with a back injury that forced me out of work for a few years I dont seem to struggle too much. Im 47 not 25. Not a strapping big fellow. Skinny and slight build in fact. I just dont seem to have the same problems as others do lugging gear around.

Im not saying any of this without having fully researching my options and preferences for sound/tone. I have enough amps, cabs, combos at my disposal to figure out what works for me and the band Im playing with.

One of the best sounds was a Twin and an extension 212 with a couple of stomp's in front.

Theres no right or wrong. But if weights an issue you are a bit limited.

Different strokes for... get what you want. As far as "Little amps being played too loud so the owner can get the right sound. I think thats the reason they tend to play so loud. Unsure." It depends on whether you are trying to compete with other sounds on stage or mic'd up. You can't take a 15 watt amp and compete with a 100 watt amp unless you mic it through the PA. The idea is, if you have to drag around a big PA for a full sound, why drag around lots of other big equipment.

Most bands have large enough PA's to mix the whole band and have a more finished product over-all. When one of the instruments on stage is significantly louder than the rest, it is more difficult to mix because of the added stage volume coming off the stage. You want a good final MIX. If anything is too loud, well its too loud. What do you here 20 feet off the stage? Is it balanced? It should be. The more balanced the stage is, the better the final mix off the stage. Plus, it is easier for everyone involved on-stage to hear everyone else.

 

I try to set the stage volume so everything is balanced on-stage so we can all hear everything we need to hear clearly. Then I use the PA to manage the audience, not individual amps. If you like 100 watts on-stage and you are not interfering with any of the balance, fine. But it usually not necessary. I know some small bands use the PA for vocals only and the amps for the rest of the total sound. It can get messy like that, especially, if some keep turning up throughout the night.

 

Most people after 2 or 3 drinks, start to lose some of their upper-mid to hi end hearing. That is why folks usually keep turning up throughout the night. I try to avoid this with my sound check and leave the volumes where they all night and compensate for the growing crowd volume with the PA master. That way, everything stays balanced even as we turn up as needed.

[Guest HRB853370]

You guys keep turning me to Terrible Ted for examples of "approved" musical "faux pas." In addition to screaming R&R and controlling his feedback whilst using a hollowbody guitar, he's also been described by bandmates to have his own "death zone" on stage. The zone is created by a wall of Fender Twins set to break up.

 

Granted, in the local pub, you may piss-off a few barkeeps with that volume. If you throw a couple acres of open sky around you and set the Twin to break up, you'll never get closer to heaven

 

Speaking of the MC Madman, I saw in the January Vintage Guitar mazazine, an add for Tonepros featuring Derek St. Holmes. Derek lived in my town here for a number of years (post Ted Nugent) and I got an opportunity to sit in with his band a few times at the local haunts. He has since moved away, not even sure where. The ad in VGM, however, implied that he was back with the Nuge.

[Guest HRB853370]

Just for a different perspective. Cant stay away from this thread. Feel like I got to offer up and alternative opinion.

Ive tried all manner of low wattage amps and have never been happy. I just prefer the sound of bigger wattage amps. 100w seems to be about where Im happiest. The 60w Fender Concert doesnt seem to break up. The speaker will but not the amp. I like that.

Even turned down low I seem to prefer my 100w amps over smaller 22,30,40 watt amps. Just fuller and more clarity. Its the sound I like. Seems like only higher wattage amps get that for me.

Two of my amps have multiple wattage selections. The Mesa 10,50,100. The Egnater 10,20,25,50,100. They never go off 100w. Even at 2:00am home volumes.

Its never been about volume as Im normally asked to turn up. The sounds/tones I get always seem to fit what Im doing and sound full and clear.

I recently played at a wake for a guy that used to be a singer in our band. The wake was really just a gathering/jam of people who he had played with over the years. I used my 100w Mesa LS and 212 cab and was surrounded by squawking little combos being played too loud. Quite often with no real full clean sound even when the volume was backed down. Its always been situations like this that keeps me away from jams. Little amps being played too loud so the owner can get the right sound. I think thats the reason they tend to play so loud. Unsure.

I dont think for a moment that 100w amps are too big or too loud. I think I have more control with a 100w amp. Definitely a fuller sound.

Seems to me that there would be so many songs I wouldnt be able to cover with any real authority or conviction playing through a wee 22-40w combo no matter what pedal I used.

As for weight, even with a back injury that forced me out of work for a few years I dont seem to struggle too much. Im 47 not 25. Not a strapping big fellow. Skinny and slight build in fact. I just dont seem to have the same problems as others do lugging gear around.

Im not saying any of this without having fully researching my options and preferences for sound/tone. I have enough amps, cabs, combos at my disposal to figure out what works for me and the band Im playing with.

One of the best sounds was a Twin and an extension 212 with a couple of stomp's in front.

Theres no right or wrong. But if weights an issue you are a bit limited.

 

Tully, thanks for sharing your thoughts and speaking from your heart. I tend to agee with you wholeheartedly. I really dont care what others say, I like my 85 watt Twin. I dont always want an amp to overdrive. I was playing my C30 yesterday, and it starts overdriving at around 6. I dont always want that sound. With the Twin, you can get mind blowing volumes and still keep it clean if you want. All this BS about stage volumes being to high, I just dont get. Back in the 70's and 80's, nobody worried about that. Do you think Motley Crue or Deep Purple ever worried about "stage volumes"? Most likely not.

 

Another thing: doubling the power output of an amplifier only results in a 3db change. Which explains why a 100 watt amp does NOT sound twice as loud as a 50 watter.

[koula901]

 

That said, I recently played a couple of jam sessions using the house guitarist's twin and Carr Rambler (1X12). The Rambler's clean tube tone blew even the twin away and the wattage switch made it much more practical volume wise. There's a 50 pound 2X12 Rambler on Ebay right now that's really tempting if I didn't live in a 4 story walk up and cart my amp 20 blocks to gigs.

 

You're right about the Carr Rambler - I drove one, man, that clean sound IS incredible! the only problem w/that amp, is you can't get it to over drive by pushing up it's volume - you'd need pedals for that. But I'm sure it's perfect for jazz.

[JeffB]

Different strokes for... get what you want. As far as "Little amps being played too loud so the owner can get the right sound. I think thats the reason they tend to play so loud. Unsure." It depends on whether you are trying to compete with other sounds on stage or mic'd up. You can't take a 15 watt amp and compete with a 100 watt amp unless you mic it through the PA. The idea is, if you have to drag around a big PA for a full sound, why drag around lots of other big equipment.

Most bands have large enough PA's to mix the whole band and have a more finished product over-all. When one of the instruments on stage is significantly louder than the rest, it is more difficult to mix because of the added stage volume coming off the stage. You want a good final MIX. If anything is too loud, well its too loud. What do you here 20 feet off the stage? Is it balanced? It should be. The more balanced the stage is, the better the final mix off the stage. Plus, it is easier for everyone involved on-stage to hear everyone else.

 

I try to set the stage volume so everything is balanced on-stage so we can all hear everything we need to hear clearly. Then I use the PA to manage the audience, not individual amps. If you like 100 watts on-stage and you are not interfering with any of the balance, fine. But it usually not necessary. I know some small bands use the PA for vocals only and the amps for the rest of the total sound. It can get messy like that, especially, if some keep turning up throughout the night.

 

Most people after 2 or 3 drinks, start to lose some of their upper-mid to hi end hearing. That is why folks usually keep turning up throughout the night. I try to avoid this with my sound check and leave the volumes where they all night and compensate for the growing crowd volume with the PA master. That way, everything stays balanced even as we turn up as needed.

Yep, different strokes. But it isnt at all to do with onstage or off stage volume. It all comes down to the sounds you want. Mic'd or unmic'd.

Im not sure but I think when a guy with a 100w amp and say 212 cab is playing together with a guy with a little combo the natural inclination is for t he bigger amp to sound bigger even when turned down lower(db) than the little combo. The combo will have that honky mid range that just begs to be heard but not the fullness and presence of the bigger amp.(guess I could be talking about multiple speaker cabs here) Its frequencies that cant be dialed in or cut. Its the nature of each. I love the sound bigger amps produce at lower volumes. Headroom, clarity and presence. My cleans are clean and open and my OD sounds have chink, chunk, thump and cream at manageable levels.

It also has a lot to do with music styles that you are playing as well. I could easily get through a set of 60-80s classics or blues through a smaller amp. Would prefer a bigger amp and extension cab though. 90's-2010 rock might be a bit different though. Ive tried to cop it through smaller combo's and it just sounds a bit wrong to my ears.

Never found 100w unnecessary, can be in the wrong hands. Those same hands my guess is the same guys that crank 30w amps too loud. Its their own natural volume threshold where everything sounds great. There is little you can do to correct that except having patience.

Just saying, it's too much of a debateble subject with too many variances for anyone to state any absolutes and most of its generalizations.

Every guitar player has to find their happy zone. Mine is everything is usable and everything has its place. Different tool's for each job. Thats why I have 22w amps through to 100w amps and enough cabs to get what I want out of each. I even have modeling units I run straight to the desk. But it isnt about volume.................well, maybe sometimes.

[DetroitBlues]

There is just something I love about bone rattling volume levels! ...well that is until it's over and my ears keep ringing for the next few days that follow.

 

We've experienced the power of a 100W 2x12 combo amp. My left ear still rings now and then and I can tell there is some hearing loss. All done in a span of about 20 minutes of use. Never again. High wattage amps were designed during a time were microphones and PA systems could not handle guitar amps. That day has long passed, anyone who thinks they need more than 40 watts must have already lost most of their hearing. With stage monitors, you should never need to hear amp itself.