Comparing Fender amps

[NoNameBand]

 

Another thing: doubling the power output of an amplifier only results in a 3db change. Which explains why a 100 watt amp does NOT sound twice as loud as a 50 watter.

How loud is 3db? 3db is used as a reference to the human ear. This is the increment that we hear volume change. In other words, when you turn up the volume, your ear hears the increases in 3db increments. This is why PA's need Thousands of watts. When you read a speaker rating of 96db at 100 watts. This is usually (in a PA speaker cabinet), the maximum clean volume. To get 99db you would need 200 watts, 102db = 400 watts, 105db = 800 watts. It adds up quick.

As far as guitar amps, Tully and Skinslammer, you guys must be "Twins". You guys like horsepower so much you probably have V-8's in your lawnmowers. Oh well, thats why we have opinions, so nobody has to be the same.

Crank it up!

[JeffB]

That day has long passed, anyone who thinks they need more than 40 watts must have already lost most of their hearing. With stage monitors, you should never need to hear amp itself.

No that day hasnt passed. Maybe for you. I get my hearing checked every two yrs. Pretty constant and good result's. Some decline, but on average, above average.

Maybe for some a small wattage 112 is all they need or can safely carry. But blanket statements dressed up as fact just seem a bit naff. One fact that I can say from my side is we still sell the same ratio of big amps v small amps doent matter what the latest fad is on guitar forums. Each have there place, each can be misused and each have there detractors. But neither is right or wrong and both bring something to the table that the other might not.

Just have to repeat one more time, for most it isnt about volume. Volume is not the issue. Its the sound.

[JeffB]

 

As far as guitar amps, Tully and Skinslammer, you guys must be "Twins". You guys like horsepower so much you probably have V-8's in your lawnmowers. Oh well, thats why we have opinions, so nobody has to be the same.

Crank it up!

I love lineal torque. Love it. Slam it out of a corner and a smooth beam of torque right through to the end of the rpm's. Not gonna lie. That gets me off.

[DetroitBlues]

No that day hasnt passed. Maybe for you. I get my hearing checked every two yrs. Pretty constant and good result's. Some decline, but on average, above average.

Maybe for some a small wattage 112 is all they need or can safely carry. But blanket statements dressed up as fact just seem a bit naff. One fact that I can say from my side is we still sell the same ratio of big amps v small amps doent matter what the latest fad is on guitar forums. Each have there place, each can be misused and each have there detractors. But neither is right or wrong and both bring something to the table that the other might not.

Just have to repeat one more time, for most it isnt about volume. Volume is not the issue. Its the sound.

 

So push a 20watt through a 4x12 cabinet if you need sound/tone. 100W is just unnecessary.

[Steiner]

I have to go with Tully's synopsis. There are subtleties that come from the big boys that can only be achieved with 100Ws. I sat close up at a Satriani concert where he mastered three Marshall 100W half-stacks and I didn't need ear plugs. There are far too many luscious 100⁺W amps to dismiss them all with a broad stroke. If weight is an issue, try cases with casters, use a dolly or find a good roadie/girlfriend. You haven't lived 'till you heat up a quad of 6L6 or EL34s

[NoNameBand]

I have to go with Tully's synopsis. There are subtleties that come from the big boys that can only be achieved with 100Ws. I sat close up at a Satriani concert where he mastered three Marshall 100W half-stacks and I didn't need ear plugs. There are far too many luscious 100⁺W amps to dismiss them all with a broad stroke. If weight is an issue, try cases with casters, use a dolly or find a good roadie/girlfriend. You haven't lived 'till you heat up a quad of 6L6 or EL34s

 

Are you sure they weren't 50 watt heads? Oh well, in the end, it doesn't really matter. CAUTION: I would be very careful using casters on the amps, Cases are okay. Casters on the bottom of your heavy tube amp are not intended to roll over rough or bumpy surfaces. It can cause serious damage to the chassis and or tubes.

[kbp810]

I have to go with Tully's synopsis. There are subtleties that come from the big boys that can only be achieved with 100Ws. I sat close up at a Satriani concert where he mastered three Marshall 100W half-stacks and I didn't need ear plugs. There are far too many luscious 100⁺W amps to dismiss them all with a broad stroke. If weight is an issue, try cases with casters, use a dolly or find a good roadie/girlfriend. You haven't lived 'till you heat up a quad of 6L6 or EL34s

I tend to agree as well... tubes sound their best when pushed hard, which is why I lean towards the smaller watt end of the spectrum to get the biggest tone possible out of a small package; but a quad of big bottles pushed hard is just in another ball park of tone. For an average joe like me, to get that awesome 100 watt sound would mean hoping I could still hear the cops knocking on my front door so they don't bust it down shortly afterwards (that is if they don't just crawl through the blown out windows ). If I had a venue that would allow me to open up a big amp, heck i'd go for it in a heartbeat!

 

I think it just matters on where you are playing - at your average bar or club, too loud could mean discomfort for the patrons of the given establishment. In a concert or more open setting, the audience is expecting ear blistering heart pounding sound... and between a small watt amp and a big watt amp with a volume level equalized by the amplification of a PA, the big guy's likely to sound better.

 

(though 15-20 watts through a 4x12 sounds damn good too!)

[JeffB]

So push a 20watt through a 4x12 cabinet if you need sound/tone. 100W is just unnecessary.

Believe me when I say Ive done it. Run the Tiny Terror, Egnater Tweaker and Black Star ht-5 through a mesa quad. Good sounds all. But not what Im looking for.

Quite often for blues and old classic's jams with buddies I take my Fender Concert with yellow jackets installed (60w down to 22ish watts) and a 212 cab. Its fine for that situation. I like that sound with those guys and they're use to it.

 

This is our usual small acoustic band PA. The side fills are 215's and horns and we usually have a 1-2 monitors each as well. We had to lend some to the touring act we were supporting at this gig. We use it for gigs 50-600,700 people. We quite often double the PA for our rock/electric guitar gigs. Stage volume is never cluttered or loud unless the drummer hasn't got his in ear monitoring system working right(they all go in ear at rock gigs). I dont like in ear monitoring, the rest all use it. I can have how ever many monitors I want. Just have to repeat its not about volume. Its the sound of 100w amps. Big chunks of steel and those big bottles that I like. If a 22-40w amp did it for me in the context of the music I was playing and the gigs I was doing I would be using them dont worry about that. Our front of house and fold back systems are more than powerful enough. Its about selecting the right amp to play the music we do.

 

On a side note but kind of related, I use 212 cabs but the other guitarist and drummer want me to use a quad to even out the symmetry of the stage. That's where my back draws the line. I also am not to fond of the sound of a quad and have been stalling on it for a while. In fact I sold my quad so I didn't feel compelled to drag it along.

I enjoy the acoustic gigs more than the electric tbh. I turn up with a bag of leads and spare strings. That's it. Guitar already waiting for me.

[DetroitBlues]

You could always run a quad in stereo, no one would know the difference or only use half the quad.

[pressure]

In the 60's my first big amp was a Kustom 200, a transistor amp, with 2 speaker columns each with 3 Altec Lansing 15" speakers.

6 15s and 200 watts seemed reasonable in the 60's. And it sounded great, not too loud in a club. My guitar then was a 1961 Les Paul SG with the sideways vibrola.

[Guest HRB853370]

We've experienced the power of a 100W 2x12 combo amp. My left ear still rings now and then and I can tell there is some hearing loss. All done in a span of about 20 minutes of use. Never again. High wattage amps were designed during a time were microphones and PA systems could not handle guitar amps. That day has long passed, anyone who thinks they need more than 40 watts must have already lost most of their hearing. With stage monitors, you should never need to hear amp itself.

 

Huh? Can you repeat that Detroit? I couldnt hear ya!!

[Guest HRB853370]

How loud is 3db? 3db is used as a reference to the human ear. This is the increment that we hear volume change. In other words, when you turn up the volume, your ear hears the increases in 3db increments. This is why PA's need Thousands of watts. When you read a speaker rating of 96db at 100 watts. This is usually (in a PA speaker cabinet), the maximum clean volume. To get 99db you would need 200 watts, 102db = 400 watts, 105db = 800 watts. It adds up quick.

As far as guitar amps, Tully and Skinslammer, you guys must be "Twins". You guys like horsepower so much you probably have V-8's in your lawnmowers. Oh well, thats why we have opinions, so nobody has to be the same.

Crank it up!

 

I got a Harley V=Twin in my mower No Name! Plenty of power!

[koula901]

Junior is a fantastic player, great voice too. I saw him at Infinity Hall in Norfolk Connecticut. A cozy little place, seats about 300. It's a bit of a haul for me, but I don't get much of a chance to see him. This clip is very similar to the line up last night.

He's got a few of what you could call gimmicks, he likes to turn the low e tuning knob during a song, almost like a whammy bar effect on only one string; he quotes Hendrix or other familiar riffs in the middle of an unrelated type of song; he hits the harmonic tones just like regular notes during solos, all to great effect. But holy cow, he's got it. On a lot of numbers he goes back and forth between the guitar and the lap steel on his custom made Guit-Steel, just so smooth.

 

 

FrankV

Chickin' pickin' is not my cup of tea, but I sure can appreciate a talent when I see one. Junior's a wild man! Thanks for posting this vid.

[mars_hall]

FrankV

Chickin' pickin' is not my cup of tea, but I sure can appreciate a talent when I see one. Junior's a wild man! Thanks for posting this vid.

 

Not to hijack a hijacked thread but here's something else he can do

 

[FrankV]

hey guys, I wasn't trying to "hijack" the thread; early on when the OP asked about the Twin Reverb I mentioned I saw a man playing through one the night before. He asked about the guy, and I filled him in, and included a clip. The clip, BTW, shows the amp we were talking about.

I was not familiar with the protocol, but when my note was pointedly ignored (until recently), I knew something was up. Sorry about that.

Glad you like him koula901. It's nice to be able to appreciate talent/skill, even in a style that is not a personal favorite.

[mars_hall]

hey guys, I wasn't trying to "hijack" the thread; early on when the OP asked about the Twin Reverb I mentioned I saw a man playing through one the night before. He asked about the guy, and I filled him in, and included a clip.

I was not familiar with the protocol, but when my note was pointedly ignored (until recently), I knew something was up. Sorry about that.

Glad you like him koula901. It's nice to be able to appreciate talent/skill, even in a style that is not a personal favorite.

 

I think you're fine and the thread had pretty much played itself out, so I added the extra clip of Junior. Wasn't really pointing at anyone, I like Junior and had to look at the thread topic like many before I added, and just hi-jacked the thread myself ;p

 

Sometimes saying you're hijacking makes things better and it can return to its previous topic if its not already burnt out.

[philipgustavson]

I play a 1965 Blackface Fender Pro Reverb, which is a 2x12 speaker set up with about 40 watts. Same look, size, reverb, vibrato and general tone as a twin, but a lot lighter and with less of that blistering volume... I use it for jazz gigs, blues gigs, and loud rock gigs and it does them all perfectly without the reliability issues I have experienced with nearly every newer piece of equipment I have owned.

 

I played a blackface Deluxe Reverb at a club once and found that the 22 watts and 1x12 wasn't quite enough for the large room and no amps through the PA.

 

Each of those old blackface models have a tone of their own, but the general tone is the same across the spectrum from the champ to the super.

[tbonesullivan]

100 watts is technically 3 dB total output louder than 50 Watts. 100 Watts is twice as loud as 10 watts. There really isn't much difference between a 50 watt and a 100 watt amp. You do get more CLEAN headroom, and you still get that warm tube sound. Also it hasn't been until relatively recently that there has been a good selection of low wattage combos and heads that have the same features seen on the 100 watt behemoths, which causes trouble when you're trying to get the most of out each piece of gear. For instance, the Mesa Boogie single recto is 50 watts, but you don't get the option of the tube rectifier, and it only has two channels instead of 3.

 

Of course, the newer amps are also not really intended to get much in terms of power tube breakup. And to get the real "brown sound" from breaking up 6L6GC tubes, they have to be maxed out, which even at 40 watts is EAR SPLITTING LOUD. What most people think of as "power tube overdrive" is really the phase inverter going into clipping, as the negative feed back on most power amp designs makes power tube clipping almost impossible.

 

As for weight, my 50 watt Mesa Boogie DC-5 1x12 weighs almost as much as my 100 watt Carvin MTS3212. It's not just the wattage that makes amps back breakers, it's also the build quality and speaker weight. good transformers weigh a lot, even if they are just for a 30 watt tube amp.

 

anyway, to get back on topic, I love fender amps for their clean, especially the "reverb" series. The twin reverb is a bit of a beast, but it's worth it, especially if you want a good clean sound without breakup, just a nice solid warm clean with lots of reverb.

[rjsanders]

I was playing through my Twin last nite, with my EJ Strat. I had not played it in a while and was thrilled at the fullness and bottom that the amp has, in addition to the mind blowing volume it can generate. I had the channnel 2 volume on level 4 and my wife was complaining upstairs that she could not hear the TV.

 

I would like to hear other's feedback on how they like their Twin Reverb. I am sure some of you still have your original Twin from the 60's or 70's also.

 

i've had a '64 showman head for about 30 yrs or so. same basic circuit as the BFTR. used it for many years as my bass amp.

 

background: everybody around here (SF Bay Area) used BF Fenders in the '60's, seems like. all the major bands used Showmans & Dual Showmans & Twins. my 1st amp was a '67 Bandmaster rig. there were some Voxen & later on Marshalls, but not so many.

 

but when i started getting all boutiquey i found that my tastes eventually wandered into the tweedy territory. BF sound seemed to lack enough mids for my taste. but i kept the Showman. thing of it is, it sounds real good to me in the "Normal" channel and i never liked the "Vibrato" channel, which was wimpy in comparison. even after tuneups, cap jobs, etc.

 

then last year i took it to Val King for a chat. we ended up re-purposing the "vibrato" controls into "drive" and master vol. original volume is pre-amp/gain/level control. now it's a fire-breather, incl. breathtaking cleans (esp. with EVM-12Ls). non-destructive, a few parts, a couple hours & cost <$300 & is now useful for all venues. reads at 85w rms & will *punish* anyone foolish enough to crank up their 50w Two Rock over here and can cost about 1/5

 

still needs some EQ tweaking for the treble & mid controls, but i really like it fine just the way it is

 

[Guest HRB853370]

100 watts is technically 3 dB total output louder than 50 Watts. 100 Watts is twice as loud as 10 watts. There really isn't much difference between a 50 watt and a 100 watt amp. You do get more CLEAN headroom, and you still get that warm tube sound. Also it hasn't been until relatively recently that there has been a good selection of low wattage combos and heads that have the same features seen on the 100 watt behemoths, which causes trouble when you're trying to get the most of out each piece of gear. For instance, the Mesa Boogie single recto is 50 watts, but you don't get the option of the tube rectifier, and it only has two channels instead of 3.

 

Of course, the newer amps are also not really intended to get much in terms of power tube breakup. And to get the real "brown sound" from breaking up 6L6GC tubes, they have to be maxed out, which even at 40 watts is EAR SPLITTING LOUD. What most people think of as "power tube overdrive" is really the phase inverter going into clipping, as the negative feed back on most power amp designs makes power tube clipping almost impossible.

 

As for weight, my 50 watt Mesa Boogie DC-5 1x12 weighs almost as much as my 100 watt Carvin MTS3212. It's not just the wattage that makes amps back breakers, it's also the build quality and speaker weight. good transformers weigh a lot, even if they are just for a 30 watt tube amp.

 

anyway, to get back on topic, I love fender amps for their clean, especially the "reverb" series. The twin reverb is a bit of a beast, but it's worth it, especially if you want a good clean sound without breakup, just a nice solid warm clean with lots of reverb.

 

I agree with you TBone, and the Fender Reverbs drip with reverb....

[NoNameBand]

I agree with you TBone, and the Fender Reverbs drip with reverb....

 

I have always preferred the reverb and clean sound of Fender amps over the rest. Dirty is very subjective. KBP810 is building me a vintage style tube reverb for my Fender Deluxe. I can't wait for my NRD.

[rjsanders]

for years i thought Fender's was the only way to do reverb. then i got an old ('61) Ampeg Reverberocket (the 1st combo to come w/reverb) & that changed it for me. try one, if you get the chance. Juke Amps uses the same method