Heritage Neck Pocket

[duaneallen]

I'm wondering if anyone around here knows what kind of neck pocket Heritage guitars have. Many people swear by the older Gibsons that have the long neck tenon, and I know that Heritages don't have this. I know that companies like Hamer and PRS have their own type of neck pockets; both bigger and thicker than Gibson's long neck tenon. I believe that this helps PRS and Hamer achieve such a great sounding guitar. Does anyone know which type Heritage uses, and better yet is there any photos of the neck pocket (seen under the neck pickup when removed)? Thanks for any help.

[big bob]

not a great one But here ya go.

[tulk1]

This has been brought up at the PSPs several times. The only response we've been able to get out of Ren is, "It's deep enough".

[NoNameBand]

With all the years of guitar building at Parsons Street, I have to believe that they know what they are doing there. Just because Gibson says something about a long-tenon doesn't make it better. Where did the long-tenon originate (Kazoo) and why did they decide not to use any more? Maybe its all fluff. I don't think anyone of the HOC that owns a Heritage guitar is unhappy with their tenons nor have I heard an uprising of the lack of tone or sustain as a result in not having a "long-tenon". If there were a clear advantage/disadvantage to it, I'm sure they would use it really is better.

[TalismanRich]

With all the years of guitar building at Parsons Street, I have to believe that they know what they are doing there. Just because Gibson says something about a long-tenon doesn't make it better. Where did the long-tenon originate (Kazoo) and why did they decide not to use any more? Maybe its all fluff. I don't think anyone of the HOC that owns a Heritage guitar is unhappy with their tenons nor have I heard an uprising of the lack of tone or sustain as a result in not having a "long-tenon". If there were a clear advantage/disadvantage to it, I'm sure they would use it really is better.

 

I wish mine were longer, but that's a personal issue I have to deal with. My shrink says its just "tenon-envy".

[ingeneri]

This seems to be a big deal to the Les Paul Forum guys (I occasionally like to peek at the dark side for fun ). Can some one explain what you're all talking about?

 

I've never seen any of the top boutique archtop builders (Benedetto, Buscarino, Campellone, Sadowsky, etc...) brag about long-tenons on their sites. Is this just a solid body thing?

 

Finally, I thought I saw a comment from Brent, Kuz, or one of the other powers that be that they're using long-tenons (again whatever those are) exclusively these days. Confirmation?

[mars_hall]

It is the structural length of the wood that attaches the neck to the body. In theory the longer should provide greater stability/rigidity leading to a better sustain etc, but in practice, some find it does not make that much difference.

[Patrick]

This seems to be a big deal to the Les Paul Forum guys (I occasionally like to peek at the dark side for fun ). Can some one explain what you're all talking about?

 

I've never seen any of the top boutique archtop builders (Benedetto, Buscarino, Campellone, Sadowsky, etc...) brag about long-tenons on their sites. Is this just a solid body thing?

 

Finally, I thought I saw a comment from Brent, Kuz, or one of the other powers that be that they're using long-tenons (again whatever those are) exclusively these days. Confirmation?

 

If you Google Les Paul long tenons you'll read all about it. It is primarily a solid body . . more specifically LP type guitars issue. You must have misunderstood the post you referenced that said Heritage is using long tenons exclusively. It's exactly the opposite. They use the shorter tenons exclusively. Basically, it's an extension of the neck that fits further into the body than the shorter tenon. It is said to give greater stability and provide for better sustain . . due to reaching further into the body. This has been discussed ad nausium here on HOC. There is no definitive proof one way or another from any source. As Ren has said "ours is long enough" Jim Deurloo once said . . "we've never had one of our H150s break at the neck joint because of a shorter tenon". Others disagree. I am personally in favor of the longer tenon, for the reasons stated above, but even if for no other reason than acquiescence to customer concerns and in some cases customer demand. Also, it's kind of like chicken soup when you have a cold. No one really knows if it helps . . . but, it sure doesn't hurt.

[NoNameBand]

I wish mine were longer, but that's a personal issue I have to deal with. My shrink says its just "tenon-envy".

 

They can help you with that now.

 

 

If you Google Les Paul long tenons you'll read all about it. It is primarily a solid body . . more specifically LP type guitars issue. You must have misunderstood the post you referenced that said Heritage is using long tenons exclusively. It's exactly the opposite. They use the shorter tenons exclusively. Basically, it's an extension of the neck that fits further into the body than the shorter tenon. It is said to give greater stability and provide for better sustain . . due to reaching further into the body. This has been discussed ad nausium here on HOC. There is no definitive proof one way or another from any source. As Ren has said "ours is long enough" Jim Deurloo once said . . "we've never had one of our H150s break at the neck joint because of a shorter tenon". Others disagree. I am personally in favor of the longer tenon, for the reasons stated above, but even if for no other reason than acquiescence to customer concerns and in some cases customer demand. Also, it's kind of like chicken soup when you have a cold. No one really knows if it helps . . . but, it sure doesn't hurt.

 

Patrick has fantasies about long tenons. He has completely been sold on the notion that it is better and because he doesn't have one, well, he needs to get one. I completely understand this concept and this is why I'm married. I believed that it is better, I didn't have one so I got married. Now look where that line of thought has got me.

[GuitArtMan]

I think far more important than how long the tenon is, is how good the neck to body fit is. I crack up when people post pictures of their "long tenons" and there's a freakin' huge gap between the end of the tenon and the body and there's glue slop everywhere. I'd rather have a short, tight tenon than a long, loose tenon any day of the week.

[NoNameBand]

I think far more important than how long the tenon is, is how good the neck to body fit is. I crack up when people post pictures of their "long tenons" and there's a freakin' huge gap between the end of the tenon and the body and there's glue slop everywhere. I'd rather have a short, tight tenon than a long, loose tenon any day of the week.

 

I completely agree. It's all about quality vs quantity. Fit is better than size.

[Spectrum13]

It has been said that a 911 in a bad design (rear engine) perfectly executed. The sloppy long t is a great design poorly executed, I would rather have a good design perfectly executed.

 

Hanging a superior inferier label about a 150 not being as good as a &*&% due to the neck pocket is just not a logical discussing concerning an engineering decision.

[rjsanders]

I think far more important than how long the tenon is, is how good the neck to body fit is. I crack up when people post pictures of their "long tenons" and there's a freakin' huge gap between the end of the tenon and the body and there's glue slop everywhere. I'd rather have a short, tight tenon than a long, loose tenon any day of the week.

 

 

+1

 

+ materials & construction of the neck itself

[tbonesullivan]

I believe the short tenon is also known as the "rocker" tenon. I don't know if Heritage is still doing them the way they were when they were under gibson. In those days the "rocker tenon" was good because you could manually set the neck angle before the glue had dried. With the long tenon they didn't have this ability, and it had to be cut more precisely, which took more time.

 

These days however with the improvements in machine technology and the CNC machines that many companies use, there is no reason to not have a nearly perfectly mated neck pocket and tenon, making the idea of long vs short tenon obsolete. The question should be: how close are the tolerances.

 

there's a really good picture about 3/4 of the way down this page showing the differences between long and short tenon in les paul guitars: http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/gibson-les-pauls/10040-neck-tenon-short-long-2.html

 

[NoNameBand]

It has been said that a 911 in a bad design (rear engine) perfectly executed. The sloppy long t is a great design poorly executed, I would rather have a good design perfectly executed.

 

Hanging a superior inferier label about a 150 not being as good as a &*&% due to the neck pocket is just not a logical discussing concerning an engineering decision.

 

Its just the Germans being too stubborn to admit they are wrong. If it was truly a better design, after 50 years of trying to prove it, you would think more car companies would copy the superior design if it was. Just like all of the other coping going on with front wheel drive, automatic transmissions, airbags, power steering. Usually, good ideas get copied. The real design that the Germans missed when they were designing the 911 (not an emergency), was mid-engine. And maybe, just maybe, Gibson is wrong about the "long-tenon" (don't tell Patrick). If it is such a good idea, why don't they put them on all of the guitars? Are they admitting by not putting it on some guitars, that those are inferior? I doubt it, I think it is just another way to try and charge more money. While they may say one is better, they will not say one is worse. One of the primary differences in a production vs Custom Shop guitar at Gibson is the Long-Tenon neck. If it were really better, change the tooling for the production side. It wouldn't cost any more to do a long vs short tenon neck. Therefore, I suspect it may be a scam to help justify the extra $2-3,000.00 for the Custom Shop guitar.

But as we know, this is all speculation on my part and I would not recommend that anyone go cutting off your Long-Tennons in solidarity.

[NoNameBand]

If it (long tenon neck) is such a good idea, why don't they put them on all of the guitars? Are they admitting by not putting it on some guitars, that those are inferior? I doubt it, I think it is just another way to try and charge more money. While they may say one is better, they will not say one is worse. One of the primary differences in a production vs Custom Shop guitar at Gibson is the Long-Tenon neck. If it were really better, change the tooling for the production side. It wouldn't cost any more to do a long vs short tenon neck. Therefore, I suspect it may be a scam to help justify the extra $2-3,000.00 for the Custom Shop guitar.

But as we know, this is all speculation on my part and I would not recommend that anyone go cutting off your Long-Tenons in solidarity.

 

For that matter, why don't any other guitar manufacturers use long-tenon necks? Are they all stupid if it so obvious to Gibson. Really, think of all the GREAT Luthier's out there and None of them are using a long-tenon neck. How can they all be so stupid? I know we have beat this up so much but I can't get it through my head that ONLY Gibson knows and uses the secret. Not even the former Gibson builders in KaZoo.

Sounds fishy to me. Sounds like somebody is making a bigger deal out of it than it really is.

[bolero]

IMO it's only because the '50's LP had them....and everyone is chasing that holy grail

 

 

if '59 les pauls were built with short tenons, everyone would be clamoring for them instead

[TalismanRich]

Marv sez "I got your long tenon right here!"

 

[morg21279]

Agree. The ultimate "long tendon" is a nuck-thru. I sold this one. Wish I didn't - every solid body I try just doesn't quite stack up.

[Spectrum13]

Imagine a 150 neck through. It would have tone and sustain for weeks and weeks. If long is good then longer must be better?

 

 

When you grow up in JC and look across the river at NYC you get this complex so you present yourself as growing up in New York. To people in Manhatten you are just bridge and tunnel people and are the butt of SNL Jersey jokes. It is not uncommon for us to pay that extra $2,000 $3,000 for a 1% improvement. Just thought you need to know that.

[yoslate]

I'd rather have a short, tight tenon than a long, loose tenon any day of the week.

 

 

...said the actress, to the bishop...!

[Kuz]

To go with my favorite quote when this microscopic hunting starts....

 

Ren Wall "Well, OK, ah Yea... But how does that Heritage sound?"

 

That's all I need to know.

 

Just my opinion, but I could careless which tenon my Heritage has... I KNOW IT"S GOT THE TONE!!!!

[GuitArtMan]

To go with my favorite quote when this microscopic hunting starts....

 

Ren Wall "Well, OK, ah Yea... But how does that Heritage sound?"

 

That's all I need to know.

 

Just my opinion, but I could careless which tenon my Heritage has... I KNOW IT"S GOT THE TONE!!!!

No joke. This whole long tenon vs. short tenon thing was invented by someone to compensate for their poor playing - "I'd sound better if I only had a long tenon." Bah humbug!!!

[big bob]

I might be mistaken, but this photo of my 170 pre finish looks to show the elusive long tenon. maybe?

[Patrick]

I might be mistaken, but this photo of my 170 pre finish looks to show the elusive long tenon. maybe?

 

That's not a maybe Lance . . . that's a definite. That's what the neck cavity of a long tenon design looks like. Your 170 is a much different design than a LP style guitar, and the neck and body joint has much less of an area to provide for . . . dare I say . . . "stability" . . . than a LP style, H150 guitar. With 3 pups on it, it also has more weight to the body. Marv uses the long tenon for . . . dare I say . . . "increased stability" . . on the 170 style because he believes that the long tenon provides . . . let's all say it together . . . . "increased stability". There is no doubt about it. DAMN . . that's fantastic design planning on their part!!! These guys know how to build guitars man!!! You're gonna have to swing that guitar by its head stock and strike something (I know what you're thinking and you could fagettaboudit. I'll duck right out of the way) with it to snap it off at the head stock. . As a guitar builder yourself, I'm sure you know that already.

 

The reason they do not use it on the LP style H150, is because there is much more area for the glue joint to bond to. They truly believe that it is not necessary on the 150 . . . they also believe, as depicted in your 170, that it is necessary in that style guitar due to its ability to provide . . . (I'll let you all say it)

 

It may not be necessary on the H150. Apparently, as Jim Deurloo pointed out, H150s are not breaking. But, if it does provide increased stability . . . then it just might also provide increased sustain too. Either way, when I order a Brock Burst clone . . . with a HERITAGE HEAD STOCK on it . . . I will lobby real hard for the longer tenon.