Florentine-Cut Eagle?

[Halowords]

Not the craziest idea, particularly since the 575 and Sweet 16 have them, but are there any Florentine-cut Heritage Eagles (Golden, Classic, or otherwise)? I know the Super KB and Henry Johnson model seem pretty close, but I'd love to see some Eagles w/ a 575/Sweet-16 style of Florentine cutaway. Not that I'm in a position to custom order one at this point, but is that something they'll do if you ask? Call it curiosity at this point. But I would be interested, particularly if there are any pictures of such.

 

Also, is the Florentine cutaway just easier to do a/o aesthetically a personal preference thing? I can't imagine much (well, any really) tonal or functional advantage, except a Florentine might offer a bit more room for upper-fret vibrato. Am I off in that line of thinking?

[Gitfiddler]

Wolfe has one loaded with cool options.

My linkHeritage Golden Eagle

 

[111518]

Also, is the Florentine cutaway just easier to do a/o aesthetically a personal preference thing? I can't imagine much (well, any really) tonal or functional advantage, except a Florentine might offer a bit more room for upper-fret vibrato. Am I off in that line of thinking?

 

Pretty close, as I understand the evolution of the styles. The old rule of thumb was Venetian on 17" and 18" guitars, Florentine on 16", cause there was not enough room for an effective cut if you rounded the point on the smaller body (more true for a thick body than thin). However, the lam back L-5's and S400's of the 60s had Florentine cuts. Florentine on a big body is a distinctive look, though I tend to think more a matter of aesthetics than of function? I think the bend of the Venetian, vs. the added binding joint of the Florentine, was considered one of those elements of craftsmanship exuded by big-body archtops. (Although it is also a place where they sometimes have binding separations.)

 

So, I think you can go sharp with the bigger bodies, but rounded with the smaller full-depth bodies at least runs the risk of limiting the space the cutaway provides for your hand. My 2 cents, of course.

 

By the way, for years I couldn't remember which was which --Venetian and Florentine, rounded and sharp. Then it came to me. florentine = fork tines = sharp.

[FredZepp]

I remember reading that the Florentine cutaways are more labor intensive. They require an additional piece of wood for the rim and much more binding work ..splicing together pieces to create the point and an addtional joint to bind. On a Venetian cutaway, you just bend or curve the one piece of binding and rim.. which would be easier.

 

[ingeneri]

Also, is the Florentine cutaway just easier to do a/o aesthetically a personal preference thing? I can't imagine much (well, any really) tonal or functional advantage, except a Florentine might offer a bit more room for upper-fret vibrato. Am I off in that line of thinking?

 

Pretty close, as I understand the evolution of the styles. The old rule of thumb was Venetian on 17" and 18" guitars, Florentine on 16", cause there was not enough room for an effective cut if you rounded the point on the smaller body (more true for a thick body than thin). However, the lam back L-5's and S400's of the 60s had Florentine cuts. Florentine on a big body is a distinctive look, though I tend to think more a matter of aesthetics than of function? I think the bend of the Venetian, vs. the added binding joint of the Florentine, was considered one of those elements of craftsmanship exuded by big-body archtops. (Although it is also a place where they sometimes have binding separations.)

 

So, I think you can go sharp with the bigger bodies, but rounded with the smaller full-depth bodies at least runs the risk of limiting the space the cutaway provides for your hand. My 2 cents, of course.

 

By the way, for years I couldn't remember which was which --Venetian and Florentine, rounded and sharp. Then it came to me. florentine = fork tines = sharp.

 

 

Not sure about your contention that a smaller 16" bout can't have the Venetian cutaway. The Benedetto Bravo, Sadowsky Jim Hall, and Heritage Kenny Burrell Groovemaster all have Venetian cutaways. Not to mention the cheapo Epi Joe Pass guitars.

 

I have Venetian cutaways on my 18" Super Eagle and 17" D'angelico NYL2, and Florentine on my 16" 575 and 14.5" Benedetto Bambino Deluxe. I'd agree that the Florentine seems to provide better access to the upper frets. I'd be curious why Gibbie didn't keep offering L5s and Super 400s with these after the 60s. Was it the additional work/costs FredZepp describes?

[111518]

Not sure about your contention that a smaller 16" bout can't have the Venetian cutaway. The Benedetto Bravo, Sadowsky Jim Hall, and Heritage Kenny Burrell Groovemaster all have Venetian cutaways. Not to mention the cheapo Epi Joe Pass guitars.

 

I made no such contention --a "rule of thumb" is, by definition, not a strict rule. Gibson set the pattern, making its 16" guitars --175, L-4, florentine, and its 17" and larger guitars --Byrdland, 350, L-5, Super 400,(with that brief exception during the 60s) venetian. There have been many 16" guitars over the years with rounded cuts --Epi's, Guilds, etc., and, as you mention, the Sadowsky Jim Hall is a beautiful 16" venetian guitar. However, since I was talking about trends, not absolutes, it is my opinion that a larger percentage of 16" guitars have florentine cuts, and, that those 16's that do have venetian cuts have to make some sort of compromise with the traditional form of larger guitars --either the curve away from the rim in the cutaway begins substantially further down neck heel on the cut side, or the horn of the cutaway is squeezed, to address the problem of having less room. Part of the beauty of the venetian cutaway (again, to me --no truth claim here) is its symmetry: the body is all rounded curves. Most 16" guitars venetian guitars have to compromise with that symmetry, with, in my opinion, varying aesthetic and functional success. With very few exceptions, I think the florentine looks and feels better on the smaller guitars. Just my 2 cents, in response to Halowords speculation about the difference.

 

Interesting that this issue came up in the first call I ever made to the Heritage factory, when I was considering an order for a 576. The person I spoke to --never got a name-- asked about the size of my hands and how often I played up the neck, because, he said, some people had problems with the rounded cutaway on the 576, one of the reasons they were, he told me, considering dropping the design.

[Halowords]

Part of the beauty of the venetian cutaway (again, to me --no truth claim here) is its symmetry: the body is all rounded curves. Most 16" guitars venetian guitars have to compromise with that symmetry, with, in my opinion, varying aesthetic and functional success. With very few exceptions, I think the florentine looks and feels better on the smaller guitars. Just my 2 cents, in response to Halowords speculation about the difference.

 

I actually find the Florentine cut aesthetically nice, perhaps because of its asymmetrical property. It just seems practical and I find it kind of pretty. I do prefer the cut of the 575 over the Super KB. The cutaway on the 575 & Sweet 16 just look kind of sleek and particularly stylish to me. Then again, I do also find the Venetian cut is growing on me. Having a 535 around will probably do that to you, eh? I used to find it kind of clumsy looking, but now I am kind of surprised to realize I have grown quite a bit fonder of it. I will say the symmetry, or even just the gentler visual, of the Venetian cut has an appeal. As long as it works though, I could get used to either.

 

A 575-style cutaway on an Eagle Classic would be pretty sexy though.

[Halowords]

I remember reading that the Florentine cutaways are more labor intensive. They require an additional piece of wood for the rim and much more binding work ..splicing together pieces to create the point and an addtional joint to bind. On a Venetian cutaway, you just bend or curve the one piece of binding and rim.. which would be easier.

 

 

Fred, I think you are right. It has to be a bit more work, the binding and perhaps the carving/arching with a sharp point/cutaway. I hadn't thought about the binding splitting which somebody else mentioned either.

 

Somehow I didn't realize the Centurion had a Florentine. Probably because I was hypnotized by the quilted maple and all. I think a slightly narrower or more acute cutaway (again, like the 575) would be interesting to at least see on an Eagle (Golden or Classic). I'd just like to be able to check what it would look like. Still yours is close to what I'm picturing (and obviously very nice, not that you need me to tell you that). The cutaway looks a little tighter than the Florentine Eagle linked above at Wolfe's. Just have to live another 90 years and buy a Centurion, I suppose.

[Halowords]

Wolfe has one loaded with cool options.

My linkHeritage Golden Eagle

 

 

Thanks Gitfiddler. And yes, that is very cool. I can't afford it, but it's still pretty tempting.

[yoslate]

 

Interesting that this issue came up in the first call I ever made to the Heritage factory, when I was considering an order for a 576. The person I spoke to --never got a name-- asked about the size of my hands and how often I played up the neck, because, he said, some people had problems with the rounded cutaway on the 576, one of the reasons they were, he told me, considering dropping the design.

 

I'm sure you know this, Larry, but, to clarify, the cutaway on the 576 is not a traditional Venetian contour. The 576's cutaway is the contour you'd find on a 535/555, and it is a little restrictive, the 576's body also being deeper than the 535/555.

[111518]

I'm sure you know this, Larry, but, to clarify, the cutaway on the 576 is not a traditional Venetian contour. The 576's cutaway is the contour you'd find on a 535/555, and it is a little restrictive, the 576's body also being deeper than the 535/555.

 

Yup. Part of the problem with these discussions is that the nomenclature is so sloppy. Are all rounded cutaways venetian? I guess that's the distinction I was using, but, there is enormous variation in how cutaways are shaped, and, on single cuts, in their relationship to the noncut body above.

[MartyGrass]

Well, since we're posting pictures I'll jump in.

 

This is a 2 1/4" guitar. Heritage is capable of anything.

 

[MartyGrass]

Fred,

 

Your guitar is obscene. It is beyond believable. I never get tired of looking at it.

[FredZepp]

Fred,

 

Your guitar is obscene. It is beyond believable. I never get tired of looking at it.

Thanks... I love the one you just posted. It looks like it would sound great acoustically, as well as electric. Love the spruce top and that flamed maple neck and back. Excellent.

Man , Heritage makes some killer axes.