semi-hollow tone and feedback question

[MartyGrass]

I is true that the more resonant the guitar top, the more it is prone to feedback. In the extreme, Les Paul used a large mass of solid wood to tame feedback.

 

The 535 is a compromise between extremes. There's a solid center block, laminated top and back, and hardware attached to the top. All of these dampen acoustic resonance.

 

Unamplified, all of us would clearly recognize the difference between a 150 and 535.

 

So here's my question. How easy is it to tell a 535 from a 150 in a blind sound test?

 

I'm hoping that one of you who has a 535 and a 150 can create a couple of sound files to post. Ideally the guitars would have the same pups and strings with the same amp settings and music.

 

To make it more interesting, there should be two riffs, both played on both guitars. So that's four sound files, two from each guitar. The challenge would be to tell which riffs belong to the same guitar and then which guitar did those riffs.

 

I'd love to see how a poll on that would turn out.

 

Anyone out there up to that? I'd do it but I don't have a Heritage semi-hollow.

[tulk1]

IMO, there would be those that can guess correctly and those that wouldn't (states Obvious Man). But all in all, it would be nearly impossible to know which guitar clip was which over the internet. However, with that said, I'd still try to guess if someone posted files.

[NoNameBand]

The more hollow an instrument is, the more resonant it is, the more sound is created by the body of the instrument ie; acoustic. In an electric instrument, the majority of the sound is generated by the electronics within and less prone to feedback and easier to record. The ultimate in recordability and feedback avoidance is digital sound. No acoustic appreciation though. Opposite ends of the spectrum. So the 150 is solid and does not make much sound acoustically, the 535 generates much more acoustic energy that is ultimately, amplified. If you are able to hear them side-by-side through an amp, you will hear clear differences especially clean, though they have similar capabilities.

[MartyGrass]

IMO, there would be those that can guess correctly and those that wouldn't (states Obvious Man). But all in all, it would be nearly impossible to know which guitar clip was which over the internet. However, with that said, I'd still try to guess if someone posted files.

 

 

So you are saying that the tone differences wouldn't be obvious with the limitations of the sound system of most PCs, right?

 

I would suspect that.

[MartyGrass]

The more hollow an instrument is, the more resonant it is, the more sound is created by the body of the instrument ie; acoustic. In an electric instrument, the majority of the sound is generated by the electronics within and less prone to feedback and easier to record. The ultimate in recordability and feedback avoidance is digital sound. No acoustic appreciation though. Opposite ends of the spectrum. So the 150 is solid and does not make much sound acoustically, the 535 generates much more acoustic energy that is ultimately, amplified. If you are able to hear them side-by-side through an amp, you will hear clear differences especially clean, though they have similar capabilities.

 

 

I'd love to put it to the test. I think you are right, though. But I'll bet it's not a huge difference although bigger than ebony vs. rosewood boards.

[NoNameBand]

I'd love to put it to the test. I think you are right, though. But I'll bet it's not a huge difference although bigger than ebony vs. rosewood boards.

 

The thing is, if you're not careful, you can cancel out the acoustic resonance of an instrument through EQ adjustments. It's better to try and capture the acoustic overtones and present them simultaneously with your electric tones with your EQ settings. They are there if you allow them to come through. The same as an Eagle vs a 535. More acoustic tone if you allow it to come through.

[koula901]

I've wondered the same thing, myself, so I listened to a lot of videos containing 150s and 535s. When I've aligned two You Tube videos, one portraying a 150 and the other a 535. What I heard was that the top 4 strings sounded exactly the same among the two models (E, B, G, D strings), but the lower strings (E, A) sounded punchier/tighter on the 150 and (for lack of a better word) flubbier/looser/woolier on the 535. I would expect a controlled (same pups/strings/amp) experiment to bear this out, as I've heard so many sound this way. I've also read that the 150 emphasizes certain notes in the range (can't recall if it was the lower mid-range or higher mid-range) than does the 535. Go to You Tube and listen to the Wolfe videos - at least one person plays a 150 first, than a 535 and you'll see what I mean. He's going through the same amp, and I believe the pups are the same.

[tulk1]

So you are saying that the tone differences wouldn't be obvious with the limitations of the sound system of most PCs, right?

 

I would suspect that.

That is correct.

[Halowords]

Kind of a rhetorical question, but . . . How much of the difference might be determined by the intent of the musician?

 

I ask this (rhetorically or otherwise) is you don't have look far to find somebody who's H-535/ES-335 sounds like a LP/H-150 if/when they want it to, use an LP or Tele with 13's for Jazz, Jimmy "Les Paul" Page using a Tele in some Led Zepplin recordings, and I read one guy who used thick Jazz strings and claimed his LP sounded like an L-5.

 

I'm sure A/Bing them there'd be a difference, but with the right strings, setup, pickups, etc. (not to mention processing) I wonder if you couldn't get fairly close renditions of whatever sound you were looking for from lots of different instruments. Not what MG was asking, but that won't stop me from rambling about something only tangentially related.

 

Back to the original question . . .

 

Unamplified, all of us would clearly recognize the difference between a 150 and 535.

 

So here's my question. How easy is it to tell a 535 from a 150 in a blind sound test?

 

How easy? To me, not that easy. I've seen a CS-356/LP A/B and a few 535/335 and LP A/B's (same setup, not sure about the same pickups, strings, tone/volume settings, etc.). The CS-356 (and 535's for that matter) sounded less dense, maybe less compressed or with less midrange (hard to describe), seemed a bit brighter or more "hollow" (not surprising, eh?). However, going blind into it with just the sound I don't know if I would have identified one as a LP and one as a semi-hollow. I might have even thought the semi-hollow clip was just a different pickup setting, amp config, or a more resonant LP/H-150 if I didn't know better. I did notice a difference, but it was fairly subtle (although that was through crummy PC speakers over Youtube).

[FredZepp]

A semi and a solid with the same pickups are certainly going to be quite similar in sound. ( Although part of the reason to pick one over the other is the feel, that communication between the musician and his/her instrument. )

 

In an A/B test of sound, the effects/amp setup would determine a lot of the ability to sense the tone difference.

Certainly, gain and processing in general would make the difference less noticeable in many cases, and even a certain speaker could compress or alter the tone to make it harder to distinguish between them.

[MartyGrass]

A semi and a solid with the same pickups are certainly going to be quite similar in sound. ( Although part of the reason to pick one over the other is the feel, that communication between the musician and his/her instrument. )

 

In an A/B test of sound, the effects/amp setup would determine a lot of the ability to sense the tone difference.

Certainly, gain and processing in general would make the difference less noticeable in many cases, and even a certain speaker could compress or alter the tone to make it harder to distinguish between them.

 

 

Fred, I agree. Someone who has both a 150 and a 535 with the same pups (probably Schallers) and strings could plug one in, record, then swap guitars and repeat.

 

The widespread use of distortion may mask the difference between guitars. I don't know. Played cleanly, the difference should be more apparent.

[smurph1]

A semi and a solid with the same pickups are certainly going to be quite similar in sound. ( Although part of the reason to pick one over the other is the feel, that communication between the musician and his/her instrument. )

 

In an A/B test of sound, the effects/amp setup would determine a lot of the ability to sense the tone difference.

Certainly, gain and processing in general would make the difference less noticeable in many cases, and even a certain speaker could compress or alter the tone to make it harder to distinguish between them.

But, All things being equal..Amp Processing, speakers..How much of a difference would there be..? I know this much, the 150 is heavier..LOL..

[DetroitBlues]

If the guitars were unplugged, obvious difference in tone. The Semi-hollow/hollow body will sound more like an accoustic guitar. Plugged into a clean amp, the same. Toss in some gain or other modulation effects, almost impossible except for feedback.

[NoNameBand]

Ask Larry Carlton why he doesn't play a solid body guitar? I wonder if he can tell the difference.

[Halowords]

Ask Larry Carlton why he doesn't play a solid body guitar? I wonder if he can tell the difference.

 

?

[NoNameBand]

?

 

Well there you have it.. Mr. 335 is a polygamist. Who knew?

 

I still wonder if he can tell the difference. Thanks for the pic and the correction.

[MartyGrass]

Ask Larry Carlton why he doesn't play a solid body guitar? I wonder if he can tell the difference.

 

 

I'll bet he does know the difference. And he's fussy.

 

Larry plays clean enough that you can tell.

 

I can't tell if Clapton was playing a 335 or a LP on some of his early recordings. That's tougher to discern. Hell, I sometimes am unsure whether Gilmore has his Strat or LP when his gain is up.

[Halowords]

The above post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek by the way.

 

There could be lots of factors though. I'd image he can tell a difference. Some of that might be more noticeable as a player though and be situational. It could also be Larry "Mr. 335" Carlton's personal preference based on physical or psychological factors. The resonance & vibration of my semi sort of impacts how I play it and what I want to play on it, and combined with the ringing acoustic nature of the 535/Prospect really make me feel like I'm somehow "connected" with them. I'm not, but it just feels kind of cool and mixed with the vibe of the (probably very slightly more) acoustic-sounding properties just tend to make me play different things and think differently musically.

 

But just listening through an amp, maybe not so much for guitarists who dwell on such matters however in general, people don't notice that much of a difference. This is not really the issue being discussed, but I tend to notice changes in style of play more than the differences between two guitars. Especially on a recording. Then I'll notice some really cool sound and immediately want to have that guitar a/o amp a/o pedal (a/o skill). Just had to contradict myself, I guess. So I do notice it if I'm aware of it or if it stands out differently from the rest of a band/artist's recording for some reason (e.g. I find myself drawn to a particular song/band/album and research what the guy's playing), but generally speaking aside from a preference for thicker/bassier sounds I don't pay as much mind to the tone of the guitar as I do to the songwriting, and maybe the overall sound/tone/vibe (which tends to say kinda/sorta the same for most bands regardless of equipment).

[MartyGrass]

?

 

 

Mr. 335 is now Mr. Whatever's Handy.

 

I have this album but never noticed his two mistress guitars on the cover.

 

 

 

Just don't show me a pic of him playing with his teeth. That's more than I can ever handle.

[Halowords]

I still wonder if he can tell the difference. Thanks for the pic and the correction.

 

I wouldn't call it a correction. I just put it up there because it was funny ("Mr. 335" playing an LP Jr.?), not to show you up or anything. Just wanted to make sure I didn't unintentionally come across as a dink. I don't really know Larry Carlton that much and that is one of the first pics that pops up when you enter his name into Google. And he is known as "Mr. 335." But I'd bet he can tell the difference. I'd wonder if most in the audience outside of experienced guitarists who've spent a lot of time playing both, could tell which was which if given the Pepsi Challenge.

[NoNameBand]

I wouldn't call it a correction. I just put it up there because it was funny ("Mr. 335" playing an LP Jr.?), not to show you up or anything. Just wanted to make sure I didn't unintentionally come across as a dink. I don't really know Larry Carlton that much and that is one of the first pics that pops up when you enter his name into Google. And he is known as "Mr. 335." But I'd bet he can tell the difference. I'd wonder if most in the audience outside of experienced guitarists who've spent a lot of time playing both, could tell which was which if given the Pepsi Challenge.

 

Maybe it is more for the player and less for the audience. I remember a quote from Warren Haynes when he said, "I have this tone in my head and I spend all of my time and effort trying to get it out of my head and project it to the audience". As musicians, we all try to choose the brush that enables us to best express our art. This could be a guitar, amp or even pedals I guess. But our choice of guitars, solid, semi-hollow or hollow body is probably more about how it feels to us more than how it sounds to our audience.

[schundog]

Ask Larry Carlton why he doesn't play a solid body guitar? I wonder if he can tell the difference.

 

I'm convinced in my heart of hearts that he would play a Heritage, except for the fact that he'd have to change his name to Mr. 535. To the original question, I know my Les Paul and my H-137 feel "tighter" than my 335 and my H535. Neither right or wrong, just different. I don't know if I just happen to notice it because I can hear the semi's acoustic tone along with the amplified tone while I'm playing it, or not.