Guest HRB853370 Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 I took my ACB 150 to a local shop for a setup, where the owner seemed knowledgable and trustworthy. I have never seen or had the need for one before, but my 150 just seemed to have a high action on it (verified by Spectrum13). Well, when I got it back, (and the setup was very reasonable at $45), the shop owner told me the neck had alot bow in it, particularly between the 5th and 7th frets and he straightened it. He also told me that he felt if he set the string height any lower, there would most likely be fret buzz. Well, since I am fairly ignorant about this subject, I thanked him, took the ax home and played it today for bit, comparing it to my other 150, which has a very low action. The string action is still higher than I desired, so I called him today and told him so. His response was, give it over the weekend to settle in and if I still feel its too high, bring it on in next week and he would try to take a little more relief out of the neck to see if he could bring down the strings a bit more. This one has the Schaller bridge and tailpiece and my other one, (with the lower action) has the Tonepros bridge and stop tailpiece. Could that have anything to do with the action being higher on the former? Is it possible that two guitars of the same model just dont setup exactly the same way? Experts needed!
DeLorean Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Is it possible that two guitars of the same model just dont setup exactly the same way? Experts needed! No two instruments are exactly the same, that is true. The problem is, the place you took the instrument to did not do the fret work. A properly done level, crown and polish job on the frets will allow the action to be brought as low as it can go (it will eliminate the problem spots where it would have had fret buzz before the fret work). Then setting the correct amount of relief, string height, pickup height (the neck pickup being too close to the strings will cause fret buzz and destroy intonation) and the intonation will have the desired effect. I do hundreds of these every year, it is a large part of how I make my living.
111518 Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 No two instruments are exactly the same, that is true. The problem is, the place you took the instrument to did not do the fret work. A properly done level, crown and polish job on the frets will allow the action to be brought as low as it can go (it will eliminate the problem spots where it would have had fret buzz before the fret work). Then setting the correct amount of relief, string height, pickup height (the neck pickup being too close to the strings will cause fret buzz and destroy intonation) and the intonation will have the desired effect. I do hundreds of these every year, it is a large part of how I make my living. I agree that in 99% of cases a fret level/crown would be the next step; but, perhaps since that's also a next step up in expense beyond a basic set-up, the shop owner did not want to take that step until you'd had a chance to asses the results of stage #1 and explicitly agree to the added expense. That seems responsible, if a little frustrating as far as having to take the guitar back. Thanks, DeLorean, for mentioning the impact of the front pickup --esp. on fenders, but potentially on all electric guitars. I've seen this time after time as the culprit for guitars with weird intonation and action problems, but when I mention it to people, they tend to look at me like I'm insane. At least there are two of us. Getting back to the original question ... I sort of see the action of a guitar as being about (1) the design of the guitar, but also, and at least as important (2) the unique nature of the neck --how it was carved, the grain, density, dryness of the wood. There can be significant immediate variation between guitars of the same model, and those differences only expand as the guitars encounter different climates, string tension, storage, etc.
Guest HRB853370 Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 I agree that in 99% of cases a fret level/crown would be the next step; but, perhaps since that's also a next step up in expense beyond a basic set-up, the shop owner did not want to take that step until you'd had a chance to asses the results of stage #1 and explicitly agree to the added expense. That seems responsible, if a little frustrating as far as having to take the guitar back. Thanks, DeLorean, for mentioning the impact of the front pickup --esp. on fenders, but potentially on all electric guitars. I've seen this time after time as the culprit for guitars with weird intonation and action problems, but when I mention it to people, they tend to look at me like I'm insane. At least there are two of us. Getting back to the original question ... I sort of see the action of a guitar as being about (1) the design of the guitar, but also, and at least as important (2) the unique nature of the neck --how it was carved, the grain, density, dryness of the wood. There can be significant immediate variation between guitars of the same model, and those differences only expand as the guitars encounter different climates, string tension, storage, etc. Thanks for explaining the variables that go into this. One thing I really dont get is why the frets would even need to be leveled or crowned (not sure what that term means) if this guitar has been played very little, and is essentially still a new guitar. Is the implication that Heritage did a poor job with the frets to begin with? Or is it more of a case that time and climatic conditions will cause the frets to change?
Spectrum13 Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Will, The neck on a new guitar (and old) is going to move around some with the change of seasons and as the lumber seasons. It's wood and Hog will do it more so that maple. Fret will rise and fall as the finger board below bows or the relief changes from it's factory original position. If it needs a crown and level, Peter Jones does my work and he is real good but difficult to reach.
tulk1 Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 ............... the neck pickup being too close to the strings will cause fret buzz and destroy intonation Oh yay, and verily so! I have a Custom Stambaugh that we just could not get to intonate. Sounded pretty good, played very well, but would not stay in tune. Plus it developed some weird overtones, etc. I had the trem blocked, the neck "straightened", all the little goodies. Until one day it hit me to adjust the neck pickup. Sure enough, it was messing with the strings. It was a RioGrande Muy Grande, and man was it ever! 12 slugs, instead of 6 slugs/6 screws. And the magnetic pull was so strong it was pulling the strings. Had never thought of that before. Something to keep in mind, most definitely!
Guest HRB853370 Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Will, The neck on a new guitar (and old) is going to move around some with the change of seasons and as the lumber seasons. It's wood and Hog will do it more so that maple. Fret will rise and fall as the finger board below bows or the relief changes from it's factory original position. If it needs a crown and level, Peter Jones does my work and he is real good but difficult to reach. Heh heh, difficult to reach eh? I second that statement. Thanks Dan!
brentrocks Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 One thing i have found with Heritages across the board...1986-2010, is that the style of truss rod they use, it is very hard to get a neck "just right" That leaves the fretwork to be the BIG factor is action and setup!!!! I'm not a gigging musician, so my setup, for me, is not super crutial....i have learned over the years to start by doing the "1st & 21st" check on the high E to evaluate the neck bow. This is done by holding the High E down at the 1st and 21st fret and then looking at the distance of the high E off the 12th fret. What has worked for me in most cases, is to set the truss rod so that the High E sets just a frog hair (technical measurement ) off the 12 fret. Unless there is a hump somewhere else in the neck (thus the non-dual action truss rod) you should be able to acquire the desired bridge height and find a playable action. Now...take into consideration, I am NOT a pro luthier . but this has always worked for me. If your neck has a hump, it may require a trip to the ol' heat block neck jig to FULLY straighten it!!!! that is the downfall of the traditional-old style truss rod. my 2 cents....
tulk1 Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 One thing i have found with Heritages across the board...1986-2010, is that the style of truss rod they use, it is very hard to get a neck "just right" That leaves the fretwork to be the BIG factor is action and setup!!!! If your neck has a hump, it may require a trip to the ol' heat block neck jig to FULLY straighten it!!!! that is the downfall of the traditional-old style truss rod. my 2 cents.... Perhaps this one of those "modernizations" they should consider.
H Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 Heritages have the most sensitive necks of any guitar brand I've owned. I can almost feel the neck on my 535 moving between taking it from the case and starting to play.
Guest HRB853370 Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 One thing i have found with Heritages across the board...1986-2010, is that the style of truss rod they use, it is very hard to get a neck "just right" That leaves the fretwork to be the BIG factor is action and setup!!!! I'm not a gigging musician, so my setup, for me, is not super crutial....i have learned over the years to start by doing the "1st & 21st" check on the high E to evaluate the neck bow. This is done by holding the High E down at the 1st and 21st fret and then looking at the distance of the high E off the 12th fret. What has worked for me in most cases, is to set the truss rod so that the High E sets just a frog hair (technical measurement ) off the 12 fret. Unless there is a hump somewhere else in the neck (thus the non-dual action truss rod) you should be able to acquire the desired bridge height and find a playable action. Now...take into consideration, I am NOT a pro luthier . but this has always worked for me. If your neck has a hump, it may require a trip to the ol' heat block neck jig to FULLY straighten it!!!! that is the downfall of the traditional-old style truss rod. my 2 cents.... Thank you Brent!
bolero Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 this book by Dan Erlewine is great, it explains everything you need to know, to keep your gtr in tiptop playing shape http://www.amazon.com/Electric-Guitar-Great-Softcover-Player/dp/0879306017 since everyone has different playing preferences, it is a real boon to know how to do your own setups etc I have the version that was issued as "the guitar players repairbook", or something, same book but older version
GuitArtMan Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 Ron Thorn came up with an acronym I really, really like - and it's the method I had adopted myself (assuming level frets and a properly cut nut): TRAIN T - Tune. R - Tross Rod adjustment. A - Adjust action. I - Intonate the guitar. N - Noodle. Repeat until the set up is perfect.
Guest HRB853370 Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 this book by Dan Erlewine is great, it explains everything you need to know, to keep your gtr in tiptop playing shape http://www.amazon.com/Electric-Guitar-Great-Softcover-Player/dp/0879306017 since everyone has different playing preferences, it is a real boon to know how to do your own setups etc I have the version that was issued as "the guitar players repairbook", or something, same book but older version Thanks Bolero, I have the book. I bought it and read through most of it, but it assumes you have some basic level of knowledge in guitar repair. Not only that, and no offense to Dan Erliwine, as he is a great and well respected guitar repairmen and luthier, his writing and organization of thoughts is not very good. The book is rather scattered and its difficult to just hone in on a topic. There isn't even an index in the back of it! That said, I picked it up on Amazon used for about 10 bucks and I have gotten my money's worth in terms of increasing my own knowledge. But its not enough to qualify me to do my own work.
Guest HRB853370 Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 Ron Thorn came up with an acronym I really, really like - and it's the method I had adopted myself (assuming level frets and a properly cut nut): TRAIN T - Tune. R - Tross Rod adjustment. A - Adjust action. I - Intonate the guitar. N - Noodle. Repeat until the set up is perfect. Guitartman, I know how to turn a truss rod, but how does one adjust action?
GuitArtMan Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 Guitartman, I know how to turn a truss rod, but how does one adjust action? At the bridge. You turn the thumbwheels to raise/lower the action. If an individual string is too low at the bridge you may need to get a replacement saddle and then re-notch it. If an individual string is too high, you may need to deepen the notch a tad.
NoNameBand Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 If the guitar has a straight neck and the frets are level, I don't see any reason why the action could not be very low unless the nut grooves are too high or the saddles in the bridge are not notched correctly or wrong radius on the bridge. I guess what I'm saying is, if all of the afore mentioned are correct, you should be able to have low action on all of your guitars. The other thing I would add Skinslammer is take the guitar with the action you like and tell them that this is what you want on the other guitar. Let them measure the relief at the various frets and duplicate it. That is what I have done with all of my Gibby's and Heritage, all with the same results.
Guest HRB853370 Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 At the bridge. You turn the thumbwheels to raise/lower the action. If an individual string is too low at the bridge you may need to get a replacement saddle and then re-notch it. If an individual string is too high, you may need to deepen the notch a tad. Are those thumbwheels supposed to be as tight as they are? Mine dont move easily. I specifically asked this guy about the action or string height to fretboard and if messing with the bridge height would affect this and he told me no. I think what he did is straighten the neck and that was it. Now I have concerns about even taking it back to him. I equate this whole process as having a tumor and trying to find the right doctor to diagnose it. Should it really be this complicated?
NoNameBand Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 Are those thumbwheels supposed to be as tight as they are? Mine dont move easily. I specifically asked this guy about the action or string height to fretboard and if messing with the bridge height would affect this and he told me no. I think what he did is straighten the neck and that was it. Now I have concerns about even taking it back to him. I equate this whole process as having a tumor and trying to find the right doctor to diagnose it. Should it really be this complicated? You need a REAL guy to set up your guitar. Forget the thumbwheels, they are tight because there is a ton of pressure on them. A real guy will look at the guitar action you love and make the other just like it. It may include a fret dress, nut filling, bridge saddles or just adjustments. Either way, he will know what and how to do it. In a town the size of Atlanta, there has to be plenty of guys that can do it. Get a Luthier and tell him to make it perfect.
Guest HRB853370 Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 If the guitar has a straight neck and the frets are level, I don't see any reason why the action could not be very low unless the nut grooves are too high or the saddles in the bridge are not notched correctly or wrong radius on the bridge. I guess what I'm saying is, if all of the afore mentioned are correct, you should be able to have low action on all of your guitars. The other thing I would add Skinslammer is take the guitar with the action you like and tell them that this is what you want on the other guitar. Let them measure the relief at the various frets and duplicate it. That is what I have done with all of my Gibby's and Heritage, all with the same results. Mark, what if the bridge height is just too high? Wouldnt that cause it?
NoNameBand Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 Mark, what if the bridge height is just too high? Wouldnt that cause it? Chances are, they already tried to lower the bridge and got it as low as they could without buzzing. That means, though it is capable of going lower, the frets are most likely interfering with it as there may be one or more "high frets". The action can only go as low as the highest fret. Its like the weakest link in the chain is what will break and the highest fret is what will buzz. Sometimes frets get loose and need to be re-pressed and even glued sometimes. This is why you need a luthier to decide what is best for the guitar.
Guest HRB853370 Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 You need a REAL guy to set up your guitar. Forget the thumbwheels, they are tight because there is a ton of pressure on them. A real guy will look at the guitar action you love and make the other just like it. It may include a fret dress, nut filling, bridge saddles or just adjustments. Either way, he will know what and how to do it. In a town the size of Atlanta, there has to be plenty of guys that can do it. Get a Luthier and tell him to make it perfect. Well, I am an hour from Atlanta, but I can drive someplace. I'll find one someplace.
tbonesullivan Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 It's a 10 year old guitar, and if you are not the original owner, who knows where it's been and what kind of conditions it was under. Getting a neck "just right" can be a pain, and it can take 1-2 weeks for some necks to "settle", as mentioned in Dan Erlewine's Guitarplayer Repair guide. Some necks can just be a PITA. Also there will be some wood compression around the truss rod block, which means that after a week or two the truss rod may need additional tightening. Another thing to consider: loose frets. My H535 has some, and it has caused some major action issues. I had a bunch of fretting out, and looked at the frets, and realized that the center of the fret was raised off the fretboard a bit. well, I took the butt end of a screwdriver, moved the strings a part, gave it a few taps, and it's good again, though eventually will probably need gluing in. My 535 seems to have been in a very moist environment for a good part of its life, as evidenced by a lot of corrosion on the nickel hardware. It has been settling in for at least a year, and is now awesomely playable. If it hasn't been played a lot, unless there is a warp in the fretboard, it shouldn't need a fret level and crown.
GuitArtMan Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 You need a REAL guy to set up your guitar. Forget the thumbwheels, they are tight because there is a ton of pressure on them. A real guy will look at the guitar action you love and make the other just like it. It may include a fret dress, nut filling, bridge saddles or just adjustments. Either way, he will know what and how to do it. In a town the size of Atlanta, there has to be plenty of guys that can do it. Get a Luthier and tell him to make it perfect. ??? The thumbwheels ARE there to adjust the action. If there's too much pressure, loosen the strings, adjust the action, re-tune. Simple as that. The bridge saddles should only be looked at if they need to be: not notched, poorly notched, notch in wrong place, wrong radius. This aint rocket science guys, get some books, do some reading, search the interweb, set ups ain't tough! Now if it needs fret work and/or nut work, I still take it to a pro, mostly because I don't want to invest the time and money in tools to do it myslef. The simple stuff, I've been doing since I bought my first Les Paul back in the early '70s.
NoNameBand Posted January 10, 2011 Posted January 10, 2011 You need a REAL guy to set up your guitar. Forget the thumbwheels, they are tight because there is a ton of pressure on them. A real guy will look at the guitar action you love and make the other just like it. It may include a fret dress, nut filling, bridge saddles or just adjustments. Either way, he will know what and how to do it. In a town the size of Atlanta, there has to be plenty of guys that can do it. Get a Luthier and tell him to make it perfect. Chances are, they already tried to lower the bridge and got it as low as they could without buzzing. That means, though it is capable of going lower, the frets are most likely interfering with it as there may be one or more "high frets". The action can only go as low as the highest fret. Its like the weakest link in the chain is what will break and the highest fret is what will buzz. Sometimes frets get loose and need to be re-pressed and even glued sometimes. This is why you need a luthier to decide what is best for the guitar. ??? The thumbwheels ARE there to adjust the action. If there's too much pressure, loosen the strings, adjust the action, re-tune. Simple as that. The bridge saddles should only be looked at if they need to be: not notched, poorly notched, notch in wrong place, wrong radius. This aint rocket science guys, get some books, do some reading, search the interweb, set ups ain't tough! Now if it needs fret work and/or nut work, I still take it to a pro, mostly because I don't want to invest the time and money in tools to do it myslef. The simple stuff, I've been doing since I bought my first Les Paul back in the early '70s. All I'm saying is at this point, the Thumbwheels aren't the problem. It also sounds to me like all of the easy, obvious stuff has been done. It's time for a professional to get involved. Get all the books you want but beyond minor adjustments, nobody should experiment on a Heritage, certainly not the frets. Ironically, is this the one just put up for sale on another thread?
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