Muddy Sounding Neck Pickup: Suggestions?

[pushover]

This question has possibly been covered before, but I didn't see it specifically doing a quick search, so here it is...

 

I've had my H-157 for about 6 months now, and still love it to death. About the only thing that I can point to in it that leaves me a little wanting is that the neck pickup sounds a little muddy. And yes.. this particular guitar has a few minor phyisical imperfections to it also, but they don't affect the way it plays, and I think they give it it's real charm.

 

This particular guitar has the schallers on it and though I actually quite like the bridge pickup and use that most of the time, despite some tinkering the neck pickup sounds on the muddy side. I've had the pickup height adjusted several times, and even the pole heights also. Although it's improved a little it's still not what I want. 

 

So the question (yes.. there is one..) is now what? Obviously I can buy new pickups, or just a single new pickup, but this is not my first choice. Then I'll have to pick a new brand of pickup, decide whether to replace one or both, etc. Just in case, I'm wondering if you gurus have some other suggestions that might be worth considering. Let me know if you have them.

[Gitfiddler]

Hello Pushover and welcome to the HOC. 

 

OK, you've done all of the things I could think of and it seems that you do not want to replace your Schallers...yet.  I'm not really sure why, since you have a fantastic instrument with an obvious Achilles heal...the Schallers.

 

I suggest biting the bullet and installing a set of pickups in that baby and be done with it.  Duncan 59's and Seth Lovers get rave reviews around here.  Even Gibby Classic 57's or Burstbuckers sound good in these guitars.

 

You can also replace the pots and caps with higher quality parts from vendors such as RS Guitarworks. 

 

Get the best performance out of your H157 and have some higher grade p'ups installed.  Good luck and post often.  8)

[GuitArtMan]

Welcome.  Since you've already tried adjusting the pickup, it sounds like a replacement may be needed.  If you want to stick with humbuckers I'd suggest a Duncan Seth Lover.

[cosmikdebriis]

I'm surprised you found the Schallers muddy... I always thought of them as too bright.

Maybe someone else has an idea about this...

 

Another option, if you're half handy with a soldering iron, is to add a coi ltap. Only expense would be the push/pull switched vol control.

That way you can get a single coil sound as well as the bucker.  8)

 

There are many variations on the theme so I'd suggest reading up on it first.

 

Good place to start would be lower down on these threads. I started one relating with a wiring diagram for Schaller pups.

You can even experiment and play around with this before buying the switch to see if you like it.

 

If you need practical advice, I can help.

[jacques]

What is your amplification? Does the mud annoy you in all circumstances, like at home on a small amp and in a band with everything up?

[Thundersteel]

Welcome!

 

First things first: post pics of your guitar!

 

 

As for pups, the Seymour Duncan Seth Lovers get my vote.

[doggy1972]

I agree with Cosmik. The Schallers are a very bright pickup usually, even in the neck pos. I think you ought to take em out and check they really are Schallers. I had to adjust mine so they would sing a bit more on the neck. Hmmmm puzzler. Think you maybe should take the other guys advice and invest in some SDs if its really bugging you. I just got a cheap 59 ($60/£30) on Ebay so it doesnt have to cost the earth.

[jmb27]

Replacements for neck pickup?

 

Duncan '59 or Seth Lover

BurstBuckers

Dimarzio - various models

[Spectrum13]

Hi pushover,

 

      What values are your neck pickup pots and caps?  The stock Heritage was a 250 in my 150s neck and a 500 in the bridge. When I replaced with a 500 neck and 300 bridge it extended the neck pups range dragging it out of the mud and tamed the treble. I don't know if you are using a quality low impedance cable, but they make a difference. Yes there are a half dozen different pickups you could swap, (I love my Lovers) but I recommend you start with the basics before spending a few hundred on replacing the pups.

[cosmikdebriis]

What's confusing me here is that several people are suggesting SD59's as a replacement for Schaller... But IMHO the Schaller are far brighter than the 59's (which I'd say are closer to that muddy/creamy Gibbon sound and the opposite of what's being asked for) ???

 

On the other hand... I'm deaf in one ear, so perhaps I was listening with the wrong one... ;D

 

Try a paralell coil tap... It's free to experiment and cheap if you like it...  

 

http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/I-SCHALLER.html

 

http://alexplorer.net/guitar/mods/coiltap.html

[fxdx99]

Welcome to HOC pushman and congrats on having the wisdom to select a great Heritage instrument.  You've already gotten plenty of pickup swap suggestions and sounds like you've adjusted the pickup w/o success.  Are you coming from a single coil guitar to the 157?  That transition certainly makes the neck pu sound muddy.  Often I'll use the bright switch on my amp (that has one) when using an lp style guitar as opposed to a strat/tele.  Even w/o the bright swith, the amp gets reset for a single coil to hum swap as the hums are much darker sounding - the bass always gets turned down w/the humbucks.  I have a guitar w/59s in them and like it a lot.  The neck is a little brighter sounding than my lp is, but both are much darker than other guits.

 

Sorry for all this obviousness - if you've adjusted the pickups you've most certainly fiddled w/the amp.  I also had schallers, thought it could be better, and swapped 'em out... although it wasn't necessarily cause they were muddy sounding.  They were just, umm,...  too polite.

[skydog]

Pushover: If you decide to try a different pickup I might have an inexpensive solution for you. I have a HRW (which is a Schaller pup reworked by Ren to Heritage specs) neck pickup that I would sell to you for $40 to include shipping. I bought it for a Telecaster mod that isn't going to happen. Mods, I know this isn't b&s section, but I'm trying to help out. If this post needs to be moved I'd understand.

[111518]

Once upon a time, before pickup marketing came to be driven by "vintage" descriptions, Duncan's recommended pair was his "jazz" model at the neck, the "jb" at the bridge.  Here's the description of the Jazz:

"Classic moderate output humbucker. Especially popular in neck position. Don't let the name fool you; it's not only great for jazz, but also country, blues, funk, classic rock and heavy rock."

 

I think the key things are "moderate output," and "don't let the name fool you."  For all the subtle influences on pickup sound (sorry, I can't resist adding real or imagined), the fundamentals are very simple.  The type/strength of magnet has some influence, but the big thing is: fewer windings=less output and more high end and clarity, more windings=greater output and less high end.  Most of us fantasize about a pickup that is a classic passive humbucker but with high relative output (volume) AND great relative clarity.  It's sort of like wanting round balls that don't roll away and that can be packed efficiently. 

 

I'd start my search for the best possible balance by looking at the output specs of each pickup and listening to the sound clips some manufacturers make available --understand the physics, then use your ears.  It's great to solicit advice, but we've had several discussions of pickups here on HOC that make it clear beauty (and clarity) is in the ear of the beholder. 

 

Fralin offers a 5% underwind policy, so if you like the sound of one of his pickups but would like a bit more frequency range(clarity) at the price of a little output, you can elect to do that without having to guess how a "Seth Lover" would differ from an "antiquity" would differ from a "59'er" would differ from a "fillmore..." from a "PAF" from a "golden age" ... which, when you think about it, are all labels designed to market through association.  So, as 'ole Seymour himself said, don't let the names fool you.

[pushover]

Hey Guys,

 

Thanks for all of the comments. Below is the obligatory picture.. Sorry for the omission.. Some say, when you've seen one black beauty, you've seen 'em all, but in this case, this one is mine  > So eat your heart out.. or buy your own  It's really a great guitar, so I kinda feel silly whining about the pickup.

 

I don't like to mod guitars, and usually prefer to keep them in original configuration. I've had one other guitar, a G-word LP,  that had similar issues when I bought it, but a few adjustments cleared the muddyness right up! I assumed this one would be the same, but apparently not. This other guitar has the burstbukers on it, and it sounds great.. Doesn't play nearly as great as the H-157, but at the moment it sounds better (even though I kinda hate to admit it.. even too myself..).

 

I play through an old MusicMan hd-130, which I've always really liked, and my complaint is based mainly on a comparison between the Heritage and the LP.  They don't sound the same, of course, and I don't expect them too, but the issue is that I use the neck PU on the LP, but just never use the one on the Heritage, because it just sounds muddy..

 

I'm not an expert at much of this.. heck I can barely play the thing.. let alone worry about mods, and who has the best PU, etc. I'm kinda of the opinion that Heritage selected the stock PU's for a reason (hopefully not just price profit), and then offered options for people who are more finiky than people like me. I kinda just expect the PU's to work for the guitar, and even if I prefer one guitar over another for some particular peice, that's o.k. In this case I can't find anything I want to play with this particular neck pickup. My real concern really was that something isn't right here, and that someone might know a remedy..

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[cosmikdebriis]

Perhaps common sense has prevailed...

 

+1 for the bravery in saying you prefer the sound of your gibbon...

 

Of course someone else mite smite it back off you for the very same reason...  ;D ;D ;D

[pushover]

I certainly don't want to get smacked, smote, or any other form of bodily harm  ??? So let me clarify that when I said the LP sounded better, I meant only in the neck PU position.  That said however.. I'm not a total pushover (pun on my user name fully intended..) I do like the sound of the burstbuckers, and that's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.. If you don't agree.. thats fine.. you probably won't even like my musical taste either.. so feel free to enjoy your own opinions and please respect my own right to have my own possibly different ones. [can't find a cool little peace sign to punctuate that..]

 

Regarding the matter at hand however.. I did pull the access plate off the back, and I can't find anything that tells me what the Pots are? No sign of a brand name or anything? The numbers might be strategically hidden under the solder, and I don't have a multi-meter handy anywhere to try and measure if thats even possible. I also can't tell what the caps are either given their orientation, and didn't feel like  pushing and prodding things just in case I messed up something else.

 

I know that there is some formula relationship between pots, caps, PU resistance and the sound you get out, but I don't know what that might be? It's certainly a thing I can mess with, pots and caps are certainly cheaper than pickups, but I'll only do that if someone can help me avoid the trial and error game.

 

I do appreciate the many comments and suggestions though.. So thanks for the welcome to the list, and it's nice to be among such helpful folks.

[cosmikdebriis]

Surely, if someone were to put a pair of gibbon pups/pots etc in a 150 then it would sound EXACTLY the same as a gibbon.

 

Only difference I can imagine would be the H would be better made. (After you'd had the frets done)...

[Dick Seacup]

Differing opinions are what make the world go round.  Wouldn't be much fun if everyone liked vanilla, you know?  I have no idea what make/specs the stock Heritage pots might be, but I'm sure someone could tell you or find out.  If you have a muddy sounding neck pickup, though, the very first, easiest thing to try is to lower it away from the strings.  It's worked for me with a couple of different brands/models, so give it a try.  All it takes is a turn of the screwdriver.

[slider313]

Welcome to the club Pushover. Don't listen to anyone here,no matter what, as they all are just a bunch of Heritage loving fools who have but one agenda; having you post pictures of your Heritage guitars past, present and future.  ;D  Now that that's out of the way, every guitar is different. If you put the same set of pickups in three different H150's they'll sound different. It all depends on wood density, weight, hardware, set -up,etc. That said, if your neck pickup doesn't have the clarity a Duncan Seth Lover is known for it's transparent PAf tone and works well in "most" guitars. I had '59's in my 140 and really never used the neck pickup; too dark. I put a set of '57 classics in and now use the neck p/u often. The '59's are wax potted and the '57's are not. I believe a p/u that isn't potted is better for the neck position. JMHO

[pushover]

Sliders message matches my experience in that every guitar sounds different, even if it has the same components. I recently bought a tele that was head and shoulders above all of the other ones in the store, and they were supposedly all the same.. except of course they weren't  ???

 

Pardon my igorance here.. but what's potted mean? some pickups are potted some are not? I've heard the term before but don't grok it's meaning.

[SouthpawGuy]

Pardon my igorance here.. but what's potted mean? some pickups are potted some are not? I've heard the term before but don't grok it's meaning.

 

Basically the pickup coils are dipped in wax which helps prevent feedback and makes the pickup less microphonic, i.e. you can play at higher volumes with less pickup "squeal".

[cosmikdebriis]

Sliders message matches my experience in that every guitar sounds different, even if it has the same components. I recently bought a tele that was head and shoulders above all of the other ones in the store, and they were supposedly all the same.. except of course they weren't  ???

 

Pardon my igorance here.. but what's potted mean? some pickups are potted some are not? I've heard the term before but don't grok it's meaning.

 

It's adding wax...

 

Probably easier just to give you this link...

 

http://www.guitarnuts.com/technical/electrical/index.php

[cosmikdebriis]

Basically the pickup coils are dipped in wax which helps prevent feedback and makes the pickup less microphonic, i.e. you can play at higher volumes with less pickup "squeal".

 

Sorry Southpaw... Both must have posted together...

[SouthpawGuy]

Sorry Southpaw... Both must have posted together...

 

No problem cosmik ... 

[davesultra]

Potted means when the pickup coils are submerged in hot wax (usually beeswax) or epoxy in oreder to supress microphonics (epoxy is not commonly used). And FWIW, Gibson 57' Classics are wax potted, The BurstBucker models that are avilable aftermarket are not (with the exception of the BB pros which are potted). Oddly enough the BurstBuckers that come on the Historic spec G brand guitars are wax potted (wow, my head hurts now). I don't know the make of the Heriatge pots, but they are 500k. You could try going with the 500+k Superpots that RS guitarworks sell. Or if you're really brave try a 1 meg for an even brighter tone.