duaneallen Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 OK, so I've really been jonesing for a Les Paul style guitar again. I was crazy for PRS SC 245s for a while, but realized that although they are amazing guitars, they don't quite have the sound that I am looking for. So I've been checking out different kinds of Gibson Les Pauls again, and also wanted to compare them to a Heritage H-150. I had a Heritage years ago, and sold it because at the time, I just had to have a Gibson (which is kind of a dumb reason). I played a new Heritage H-150 25th anniversary, a Gibson Les Paul Traditional, and a '58 VOS. First I checked out the Heritage and was totally blown away. The feel, the workmanship and the sound were exceptional. It had a great, thick sound with lots of mids and sustain, but was very sweet as well. The new plecked guitars are set up so great. Much better than the old Heritages that I am used to. Next I played the Traditional. Nice guitar, but nothing special. It lacked the thickness and the mids that the Heritage had. I am suprised that I could hear the fact that the Traditional was weight relieved. It just lacked the mids that the Heritage had. Of course, that could just be the wood in the guitar. Then I tried the '58, and that was a killer. Easily right there with the Heritage. It was light, resonant, and had the nice thick mids that the Heritage had. It was a little darker sounding, and more "vintage" sounding if you will. I had a '58 before, but just couldn't bond with it for some reason, and ended up trading it for a PRS DGT, which I don't regret at all. The Heritage and the R8 were a tie in my book, but the Heritage was WAY cheaper. So I think that I might go with a Heritage. Now I'd like to find a nice used one, as they don't hold they're value at all. I just hope that I can find one as nice as the one I played. If not, I may have to bite the bullet on the new one. I figured someone may appreciate the info of this comparison. Anyone else familiar with both?
eljay Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 hi, duane. i have 2 R8s and a 150 w/ p90s, all purchased new. i'm not surprised that you judged the gibson '58 to be right up there--they are the heir to gibson's once glorious legacy, imo. i paid a bit more for my R8s than i did for the h150, but nowhere near gibson's ridiculous msrp. PM me for more details if you want to. eljay pics:
Blunote Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 You might want to check out some of the axes Brent is unloading. Brent's "stay out of jail sale"
Patrick Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 OK, so I've really been jonesing for a Les Paul style guitar again. I was crazy for PRS SC 245s for a while, but realized that although they are amazing guitars, they don't quite have the sound that I am looking for. So I've been checking out different kinds of Gibson Les Pauls again, and also wanted to compare them to a Heritage H-150. I had a Heritage years ago, and sold it because at the time, I just had to have a Gibson (which is kind of a dumb reason). I played a new Heritage H-150 25th anniversary, a Gibson Les Paul Traditional, and a '58 VOS. First I checked out the Heritage and was totally blown away. The feel, the workmanship and the sound were exceptional. It had a great, thick sound with lots of mids and sustain, but was very sweet as well. The new plecked guitars are set up so great. Much better than the old Heritages that I am used to. Next I played the Traditional. Nice guitar, but nothing special. It lacked the thickness and the mids that the Heritage had. I am suprised that I could hear the fact that the Traditional was weight relieved. It just lacked the mids that the Heritage had. Of course, that could just be the wood in the guitar. Then I tried the '58, and that was a killer. Easily right there with the Heritage. It was light, resonant, and had the nice thick mids that the Heritage had. It was a little darker sounding, and more "vintage" sounding if you will. I had a '58 before, but just couldn't bond with it for some reason, and ended up trading it for a PRS DGT, which I don't regret at all. The Heritage and the R8 were a tie in my book, but the Heritage was WAY cheaper. So I think that I might go with a Heritage. Now I'd like to find a nice used one, as they don't hold they're value at all. I just hope that I can find one as nice as the one I played. If not, I may have to bite the bullet on the new one. I figured someone may appreciate the info of this comparison. Anyone else familiar with both? I am familiar with both. I have an R9 & an R6. I also have an H150 Light Weight, 2010 model, and an H150CL (Classic) 2005 model. First off, the new 150s are NOT Pleked, at least not at the factory. If you played one that was set up very well, you can thank either Rendall Wall, or the dealer . . or both for that . . . not a Plek machine. I really think comparisons are very subjective, but I'll offer my own. The 2 Gibson Reissues are, as you said about the one you played . . . awesome!!!! Almost perfect in every way. Although each is very unique and different from the other, they are both wonderful. While the 2005 H150 is very different from each of them . . I find it to be of similar and equal quality. I just might be the biggest supporter of the Gibson Reissues that you'll find here amongst HOC members. But, there is just something about the 2005 Heritage that I find difficult to describe. It just feels more "hand made" . . . "boutique" . . if you will. I will not say that it is any better than my R9 or than my R6, because, I don't believe that it is. But, it is every bit as good . . in every way. I haven't yet bonded with the new 2010 150 light weight . . and I am preventing myself from ever doing so for reasons I won't explain. But, it is a KILLER guitar!! Now, here's what I think makes buying a 150, particularly a new one, the better move . . . unless you're a Gibson collector. If you buy a Gibson Reissue, you are going to get an exact replication of the guitar that was made a half century ago. If you are willing to pay the price of a new 150, you will get that same level of craftsmanship and quality that makes a Custom Shop reissue what it is . . . but, you will be able to put your own hand print on the H150. It can be made with what ever hardware you choose, pick ups you choose, electronic controls you choose, color you choose . . etc. You can even influence the neck shape to your own taste. With a Gibson Custom Shop Reissue . . . you get a truly wonderful instrument. But, it's made the way Gibson wants it to be . . not the way you want it to be.
Kuz Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 Well as Patrick said, he is a big supporter of both Gibson reissues and Heritage guitars. I am the biggest supporter of Heritage guitars (I own 9 of them, including FOUR 150s). Here is my take on Gibby vs Heritage.. You CAN find a Gibson R8 or R9 that is equally as good as a Heritage 150. I believe that and I have played an R9 that was equally (not better) than my prized "Greeny" 150. BUT here is what you lose in buy Gibby over Heritage.. -Gibby is not completely Handmade (actually very little is) -Gibby cost a LOT MORE -Gibby is not made by the guys at Heritage that were at Gibson when the iconic guitars were made -NO CUSTOM CHOICES (as Patrick stated) -Completely different business acumen from Heritage (3 Great down to earth guys vs that turd Henry J) -You lose the intangible handmade factor like Patrick said. You pick up a Heritage and it oozes "vintage craftsmanship" SO unless you need to see the Gibson headstock, you are paying for a more expensive, computer made, Heritage copy. PS Heritage did Plek guitars approximately between late 2004 to early 2007. But like Patrick said they don't now.
Gitfiddler Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 Another Gibson Custom Shop AND Heritage Custom Shop fan here. I'd compare my R7 Goldtop and R68 Custom very favorably to H150's and H157's respectively. As stated previously, the biggest difference being the true custom options available on Heritages. To me that sets them apart from Gibson as a brand and as a niche builder. I recall Vince speaking at a NAMM interview about the intentions of Heritage to be a medium sized boutique guitar builder with custom options available to their customers. That is nowhere near what Gibson is attempting to do. So the bottom line is that you really are comparing apples to oranges, but in the end, getting some incredible fruit from both builders...just different. As for buying new or used, buy what you want and buy what you can afford. That is a very personal decision. Heritage after market prices are rising, even in a down market for luxury items. So if you want one, get what turns you on and brings you the most joy. Interestingly enough, I recently sold off one of my Gibsons to fund a new Heritage. To me that was a very good deal...for me. I wasn't playing the Gibson because I've been spoiled by my Heritages, and wanted another. Out went the Gibby, in came the Millenium 155! I couldn't be happier with that move. I think Kuz sold a vintage Gibson 355 several years ago and ended up with some of the sweetest custom Heritages on this forum. I see the value of Heritages increasing each time I play one. The increased value is to me...especially since I do not plan on selling them any time soon.
FredZepp Posted February 20, 2011 Posted February 20, 2011 Excerpt from " The Gibson Guitar Book"- Walter Carter "The heart and soul of Gibson was still at 225 Parsons St. in Kalamazoo, where the core group of guitar builders had stayed" "...They formed the Heritage guitar company and found success as the company that, more than Gibson, continued the Gibson tradition." Yep... it's the real thing.... from 225 Parsons St. ...
Guido Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 Get a R8! Seriously. Gibson is everything doing right since 2009. The improvements are a huge step forward: nylon 6/6 nut, audio taper pots, pio caps, 50's wiring, great sounding pickups, selected woods. All the R8's I played last year were tone monsters with an excellent finish. All the Heritage's I played had very good tones but couldn't reach the R8's tone and some had finish issues. For a couple of 100 bucks more, you get the far better guitar. You can even find R8's with figured tops. Sorry guys for my honesty!
H Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 Get a R8! Seriously. ... Sorry guys for my honesty! An honest opinion, Guido, but an opinion nonetheless. I doubt that in Europe we see the best of Heritage's output. I would honestly put my H-150 up against the reissue Gibson Les Pauls I've played and I'm sure a few others on the forum would have the confidence to do the same.
Patrick Posted February 21, 2011 Posted February 21, 2011 Guido . . it probably isn't the wisest thing to post on THE HERITAGE OWNER"S CLUB forum, that a member should choose a competitive model over a heritage.. It's definitely in poor taste! It's also very incorrect. The R8 is an amazing instrument . . but, generally speaking . . it is no better than an H150. You may have seen a less than perfect Heritage, and compared it to a perfect R8. I don't doubt that could happen. But, in general, looking at it from a macro aspect as opposed to a micro aspect . . their quality equals each other. Even Gibson would agree with that!!! H . . you too are wrong when you state that Europe doesn't see Heritages best guitars. I assure you, the folks at Parsons Street are not scrutinizing their finished products and saying . . "OK . . this one looks like shit . . let's send it to Europe". Contrary to what you think, you are seeing the best of Heritage's output . . as well as the worst . . just like every dealer here in the States. Heritage gets a build order from a dealer, then they make the guitar. They don't put less of a focus or emphasis on the orders they get from abroad. You, my friend, are at the distinct disadvantage on not being able to visit the plant. If you could . . you would totally understand what I am saying.
H Posted February 22, 2011 Posted February 22, 2011 Patrick, I'm sure that Heritage do have good quality control and my intention wasn't to suggest that they consider Europe to be the 'bargain bin' for sub-standard guitars. I was thinking in terms of the sheer quantity available in Europe to choose from as against your choice there in the States. I think I would be much more likely to find the guitar I want from a choice of hundreds rather than a choice of tens. A further note on my original post: in the reissue series, Gibson are attempting to reproduce an idealised guitar from a selection of 1950's era guitars. My 150 is not the same thing, it doesn't even have the same physical dimensions, but it was built like those guitars were, not as a slavish copy but because building guitars that way is Heritage's heritage. There are occasional mistakes, flaws, etc, just as you see in the original 50's guitars because they are made by humans applying their art to pieces of wood. Gibson mark their reissues as something special, produced in limited number runs and with high price tags. They are fine guitars because of the attention lavished on them. Heritage make their guitars like that every day. Every single day. Coo, what a ramble THAT was!
Patrick Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Patrick, I'm sure that Heritage do have good quality control and my intention wasn't to suggest that they consider Europe to be the 'bargain bin' for sub-standard guitars. I was thinking in terms of the sheer quantity available in Europe to choose from as against your choice there in the States. I think I would be much more likely to find the guitar I want from a choice of hundreds rather than a choice of tens. A further note on my original post: in the reissue series, Gibson are attempting to reproduce an idealised guitar from a selection of 1950's era guitars. My 150 is not the same thing, it doesn't even have the same physical dimensions, but it was built like those guitars were, not as a slavish copy but because building guitars that way is Heritage's heritage. There are occasional mistakes, flaws, etc, just as you see in the original 50's guitars because they are made by humans applying their art to pieces of wood. Gibson mark their reissues as something special, produced in limited number runs and with high price tags. They are fine guitars because of the attention lavished on them. Heritage make their guitars like that every day. Every single day. Coo, what a ramble THAT was! Cool! Thanks for clarifying your post. I understand now much better and fully agree with your clarification. I was just a little concerned that our GOOD friends from the UK might think that Heritage considers them to be less important than those here in the US. Definitely not so!!!! Honestly, I believe . . .after a conversation I had with Jim Deurloo, that the owners of Heritage think that the UK market just might be a market that they should divert more of their focus towards. Regarding Gibson . . they currently have so much market share, they need to keep introducing new models to try to keep pace. (General Motors tried the same thing with 5 different brands and at least 5 different models within each brand . . . look at them now). The comparisons between Gibson and Heritage always seem to amuse me. They are two very different companies with two very different business models and strategies. Heritage remains true to itself . . .and its "heritage" .. totally unwavering in its personality, even if at the expense of expansion. Gibson continues to strive for growth and profitability . . as it needs to and as it should . . . but, sometime to the detriment of its history . . . except for the Custom Shop. My love for Gibson doesn't go much beyond their history . . . which would be Kalamazoo MI, and their Custom Shop. My love for their Custom Shop was due in large part to "Hutch". There were other transplants . . . but, Hutch was the guy! As I've said before, Hutch was everything that we've grown to know and love about; JP, Marv, Ren, Jim, Bill, Aaron, Pete . . . . etc. I'm sure that just like the crew at Parsons Street are passing their knowledge and their skills down to the next generation . . . so has Hutch done at the Custom Shop in Nashville. I can't sell either short against the other. But, my heart is still at 225 Parsons Street.
yoslate Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 A further note on my original post: in the reissue series, Gibson are attempting to reproduce an idealised guitar from a selection of 1950's era guitars. My 150 is not the same thing, it doesn't even have the same physical dimensions, but it was built like those guitars were, not as a slavish copy but because building guitars that way is Heritage's heritage. There are occasional mistakes, flaws, etc, just as you see in the original 50's guitars because they are made by humans applying their art to pieces of wood. Summarizes the state of the art pretty accurately, I think. Folks weighing the pro's and con's of Gibson or Heritage would do well to understand this point. Nicely articulated, Howard!
mark555 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Guido, add a couple of thousand on top of the heritage price, maybe even another two thousand on top of that for an R8 or R9. Howard, you have seen a selection of Heritage guitars in the tens?!! I have only ever seen one shop with as many as three Heritage guitars in at the most. When I bought my 555 it was a solitary used guitar on a wall. I don't think I have seen ten Heritage guitars in guitar stores over here in five years! By the way, I agree with every thing you say.
bebove64 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Cool! Thanks for clarifying your post. I understand now much better and fully agree with your clarification. I was just a little concerned that our GOOD friends from the UK might think that Heritage considers them to be less important than those here in the US. Definitely not so!!!! Honestly, I believe . . .after a conversation I had with Jim Deurloo, that the owners of Heritage think that the UK market just might be a market that they should divert more of their focus towards. Regarding Gibson . . they currently have so much market share, they need to keep introducing new models to try to keep pace. (General Motors tried the same thing with 5 different brands and at least 5 different models within each brand . . . look at them now). The comparisons between Gibson and Heritage always seem to amuse me. They are two very different companies with two very different business models and strategies. Heritage remains true to itself . . .and its "heritage" .. totally unwavering in its personality, even if at the expense of expansion. Gibson continues to strive for growth and profitability . . as it needs to and as it should . . . but, sometime to the detriment of its history . . . except for the Custom Shop. My love for Gibson doesn't go much beyond their history . . . which would be Kalamazoo MI, and their Custom Shop. My love for their Custom Shop was due in large part to "Hutch". There were other transplants . . . but, Hutch was the guy! As I've said before, Hutch was everything that we've grown to know and love about; JP, Marv, Ren, Jim, Bill, Aaron, Pete . . . . etc. I'm sure that just like the crew at Parsons Street are passing their knowledge and their skills down to the next generation . . . so has Hutch done at the Custom Shop in Nashville. I can't sell either short against the other. But, my heart is still at 225 Parsons Street. +1 regarding Heritage:unfortunately the only difference between Usa and Europe is the selling price(also for a resale). But H you're also right when you say:"I think I would be much more likely to find the guitar I want from a choice of hundreds rather than a choice of tens".
guitarnut1 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Hi everyone, glad I found this nice forum I had a Heritage 150cm ULTRA a few years ago, which I sold (I'm still kicking my ass for this huge mistake). This Heritage was my number ONE guitar. I had a Hamer Monaco Elite at the time as well, which was a very nice guitar in it's own right, but not as sweet and playable as the 150 ultra. The 150 was heavy and had a HUGE sustain. To be ohnest, probably the nicest guitar I have played (and I have played quite a few, from PRS to Gibbies) A the time, I tried an R8 and an R9 into a Marshall JVM 2x12 Combo and was literally blown away. Didn't see that much of a difference between the R8 and the R9, apart from the maple top and maybe a slightly different neck shape. But the R8 neck was awesome as well. Then I decided I HAD TO HAVE an R8. Anyhow, looking back, I really regret selling the H150 CM Ultra. A few months ago I contacted the guy I sold it to (so desperate I was), but he really want's way too much to part with it. I'm not willing to spend 2K to get a new one either. Well, today was my day, I found a similar guitar and bought it in an instant. It is a limited run, from 2002, really nice flamed top (ultra grade top IMO), bound headstock, ebony fingerboard, and last but not least HRW pickups!!! (The BEST pickups, maaaaan they are sweet )) ). Funnyly enough the guy who is selling it, didn't know of HRW pickups, he'd just written: special heritage pickups. It weighs about 3,4 KG and the back is shaped. http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140515890452&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT I really haven't seen any other Heritage like this one. It kind of reminds of the 20th anniv. one. Where the logo is inlayed as well. Should get it in the next few days, so .. I'll be back with my impressions
zguitar71 Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 I am really taken with the 150 gold top with p-90's to the point of being obsessed. Compared to the Gibson `56 gold top (new) I have to lean toward the Heritage. I do not know if all the 150 GT are like the J. Wolfe ones but they have a one piece H. mahogany back vs. two pieces on the Gibson. The 150 GT has better pick-ups (Lollar) and the pots are CTS too. Both have a one piece neck and rosewood fret board. So the biggest difference (to me) is the one piece back, the electronics probably sound so close I would never know the difference. If they were the same price I would go with the Heritage because of better materials. However; as we all know, they are not the same price, making the Heritage even more attractive.
Halowords Posted February 23, 2011 Posted February 23, 2011 Get a R8! Seriously. Gibson is everything doing right since 2009. The improvements are a huge step forward: nylon 6/6 nut, audio taper pots, pio caps, 50's wiring, great sounding pickups, selected woods. All the R8's I played last year were tone monsters with an excellent finish. All the Heritage's I played had very good tones but couldn't reach the R8's tone and some had finish issues. For a couple of 100 bucks more, you get the far better guitar. You can even find R8's with figured tops. Sorry guys for my honesty! You're entitled to your opinion, and it's certainly valid. I genuinely disagree with you though. I highly doubt I would find an R# better than my H-150. If I did, it would almost certainly cost a lot more. Even if not, I LOVE the sound of my H-150, can't really imagine anything being better suited or more of a "tone monster" than mine, and still feel MUCH better about supporting Heritage than I ever would buying a Gibson. For that "couple hundred more" (which I still think sound a bit conservative), I could have a custom Heritage with select figured woods, a custom finish job, electronics to my liking, and who knows what else. And no, I do not think an R8 is a much better guitar than my stock H-150. But hey, that's me.
bolero Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Heritage are ridiculously underpriced in the used market, if the OP is looking for an inexpensive gtr that will hang with an R8 buy a used H150 if you ever decide to sell it, you'll get 100% of your money back but that requires some patience & a bit of luck if you are looking for something particular or you can go to a shop like Jay Wolfe's & have a great selection of new gtrs
H Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Hi everyone, glad I found this nice forum http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140515890452&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT Should get it in the next few days, so .. I'll be back with my impressions Welcome to the HOC and welcome to the H-150 VSB Owners Club also We're going to need LOTS of pics!
the jayce Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 It's in the musician fellas not the headstock. Both are nice guitars but just boat anchors if they arnt in a good set of hands,,,just sayin???? Maybe some of us need to get past the brand phase of guitar playing :0) Spending 4000+ on a guitar isnt going to impress anyone but your guitar playing skills will.................. Both guitars are awsome but the endless circle of which is better is rediculous, however people can tell the better guitarist when compared, instantly! The guitar is second in line in the good sounding equation. So please everyone let this type of sensless coparisons come to an end, although we all know that isnt gonna happen anytime soon. Peace.
guitarnut1 Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 Welcome to the HOC and welcome to the H-150 VSB Owners Club also We're going to need LOTS of pics! I think the guitar might be chambered (3,4 KG, but its back is shaped, so it might be just the shaping...) , I like light guitars, but don't know if I'm going to like a chambered body, I'll see in a few days Anyhow, I was so thrilled when I saw this maaaavalas finish, and to top the equation, HRW pickups... Will post more pics, as soon as I get it
JeffB Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 It's in the musician fellas not the headstock. Both are nice guitars but just boat anchors if they arnt in a good set of hands,,,just sayin???? Maybe some of us need to get past the brand phase of guitar playing :0) Spending 4000+ on a guitar isnt going to impress anyone but your guitar playing skills will.................. Both guitars are awsome but the endless circle of which is better is rediculous, however people can tell the better guitarist when compared, instantly! The guitar is second in line in the good sounding equation. So please everyone let this type of sensless coparisons come to an end, although we all know that isnt gonna happen anytime soon. Peace. Pretty much ends this thread.
DetroitBlues Posted February 24, 2011 Posted February 24, 2011 I love both Heritages and Gibsons. I belive Gibson has improved with the PLEK machines.. While I'd take a Heritage first, I wouldn't turn away a Gibson. No matter which one I buy, I will have it looked over by a tech. Look for a possible fret dress, setup, and any other flaw that needs to be addressed. As for finish issues, I prefer a flaw or two. Makes the guitar uniquely mine and shows the guitar was handmade. Nothing wrong with a little charactor!
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