Heritage 550

[Guest HRB853370]

I sold my H-550 to a fellow in Ohio over the weekend and he received it today. He is claiming that the guitar has a tailrise over the body, and wants to send it back to me. I told him that there were no returns, and the sale was final, which he knew going into the transaction. My question is, what the heck does he mean by tailrise over the body? I figure Patrick or Gitfittler might know since they have many archtops. Sounds to me more like buyers remorse.

[Spectrum13]

New one to me too! Opposite of neck dive?

[zguitar71]

It is a condition that is very hard to notice, even for a seasoned pro where there is "something" wrong with the guitar. It is usually brought on by buyers remorse. I think the guy is full of poop. A 550 would have a droop in the body if it has anything at all (unlikely). The strings press down on the bridge on archtops and can lead to the top flatening or even getting a dip in it. A 550 is a laminate top and very unlikely to have that problem though. I think he regrets spending the money when he probably could not afford too and is trying to find a way out.

 

P.S. I have never heard of a tailrise either.

 

 

[Gitfiddler]

Tailrise?? I've never heard of such a condition except in poopy farm animals.

 

Seriously, I think he is not familiar with how relatively flat the 550 top is comared to other archtops. It is a laminate top, so there is less of an arch over the midsection of the top. There appears to be a very slight rise near the tail piece. It looks odd but is very normal for a 550. When I first received my used 550 that was what startled me about it. I thought the top was sunken. To the contrary, it was made more flat then arched.

 

I would encourage the new owner to call Heritage and inquire about this so called condition and let them explain how it supposed to look vs. his expectations.

 

If other 550 owners have something different then maybe mine has 'tailrise' also. All I know for sure is that I love it and it plays and sounds great.

 

Finally, for reference purposes, look at the difference between a Golden Eagle's arch and the H550's in the attached photo.

[Patrick]

Will: While I have never heard of it being referred to a tailrise, what the guy might be talking about is a situation, almost a phenomenon, where the "tail" end of the fret board rises up. It usually occurs at the very end of the fret board where it extends "over the body". The only way to correct it is with a fret job. The tech would need to pull out the frets and shave/plane/sand the finger board flat, then re fret it. If not, the strings will hit the frets at the 20th, 21st frets and die. However, if it was a problem, I would expect that you would have seen it while you were playing . . unless you had the action pretty high . . . then you might not have noticed it.

[jazzrat]

Will, PM sent about the purchaser of your guitar.

[MartyGrass]

Will: While I have never heard of it being referred to a tailrise, what the guy might be talking about is a situation, almost a phenomenon, where the "tail" end of the fret board rises up. It usually occurs at the very end of the fret board where it extends "over the body". The only way to correct it is with a fret job. The tech would need to pull out the frets and shave/plane/sand the finger board flat, then re fret it. If not, the strings will hit the frets at the 20th, 21st frets and die. However, if it was a problem, I would expect that you would have seen it while you were playing . . unless you had the action pretty high . . . then you might not have noticed it.

 

I have seen that before and agree completely with Patrick. That can occur with very well made archtops.

 

If it is slight, it doesn't matter much. More than that requires raising the action.

 

I have never heard of it called tailrise.

[Spectrum13]

Note: He posted on TGP!

 

The dip in on the finger board happens to some OLD guitars and depends on how the truss rod was positioned.

 

I looked down the neck of Will's 550 and it was straight and the action was high. That was a couple of months ago and before it made the trip up North.

 

What was interesting on his post was his comment that Heritage HC guitars are prone to tail dive. I kind of think Tim's explaination of how the top is arched explains a lot. Could be the 550 needs a good set up. The new owner was setting the action and might be confused by the way the 550 is built and believes it was a factory QQ problem. I second the call into Ren before it becomes another Heritage dumpin.

[MartyGrass]

This is hard to talk about without pics.

 

The first question is whether there is a concern about the fretboard or the top.

 

Could someone put the TGP link up here?

[Guest HRB853370]

While I am certainly not an expert on archtop guitars, what I do know is that this guitar was setup very well, with a relatively low action and a very straight neck. I think I am dealing with a complainer here, who knew going into the transaction that once the sale was completed, the guitar was not returnable. Who knows, he might not like the finish or any number of reasons. At any rate, this is a bunch of BS and I am standing firm on my no return policy. Anybody that knows me or that has dealt with me on Ebay knows that I am a stand up person and would not deceive anybody in any way.

[Blunote]

I looked at the buyer's post at TGP. He's talking about a rise in the fingerboard.

 

H550 TGP

 

 

I suspect he's tried to adjust the action really low, ran into some buzzing and concluded it was a problem with the fretboard.

 

It's hard to say what your obligation is. He bought it sight unseen with a no return possible. But if there was a serious issue with that wasn't divulged up front, I think you'd have some responsibility to make it right with him. Whether you knew about the condition or not.

 

Were I you, I might offer to pay for a luthier to sand down the fretboard and replace a few frets or maybe refund him part of that cost,

[Jonathan]

I'm sorry this happened to you. Sounds like it's a bad situation all around.

 

For what it's worth, I'm casually acquainted with your buyer. I know him more from his forum postings, but he's a local guy and I've talked to him a couple times. He's an amazingly good guitarist who buys and sells a lot of guitars. He does a lot of online gear demos, has written a couple instructional books that I think are pretty well regarded, and seems to know a lot about guitars. He has a fairly prominent internet presence and seems to be generally well-regarded online. While I don't know him well enough to vouch for him personally, I'd be very surprised if he was returning the guitar for some flaky reason. I imagine, however, that he's probably a lot more particular about his guitars than most people are.

 

These kinds of deals gone bad are no fun for anyone. I hope you two work something out to your mutual satisfaction, but I can certainly understand your frustration. I've bought and sold a few guitars online, and it always makes me nervous -- on either end of the transaction. While I've never really been burned, I think my next major guitar purchase will be one that I can actually get my hands on and personally inspect. One man's dream guitar can be another man's flawed instrument.

 

Good luck with this, however it turns out. I hope my post sheds a little light on the situation for you.

[Guest HRB853370]

Thank you Jonathan, most of the comments here have been positive. All I can tell you is that the person I sold it to was "less than polite" about the whole situation. In fact I am being way to kind by saying that. He had every opportunity to ask more questions, ask for more closeup pics, etc. This wasnt a "lemme try it for a week to see if I like it" transaction. From what I have heard from others, he has a habit of doing such a thing, buying something sight unseen, then returning it for whatever reason. Good guitarist or not, he didn't impress me as a person.

[Guest HRB853370]

I looked at the buyer's post at TGP. He's talking about a rise in the fingerboard.

 

H550 TGP

 

 

I suspect he's tried to adjust the action really low, ran into some buzzing and concluded it was a problem with the fretboard.

 

It's hard to say what your obligation is. He bought it sight unseen with a no return possible. But if there was a serious issue with that wasn't divulged up front, I think you'd have some responsibility to make it right with him. Whether you knew about the condition or not.

 

Were I you, I might offer to pay for a luthier to sand down the fretboard and replace a few frets or maybe refund him part of that cost,

I agree with your second paragraph but not your third. What setup seems right to one person may not seem right to another person. That is why it is risky to buy a guitar or anything, sight unseen. If he had major concerns he could have asked for more photos but he did not. I described it as accurately as I could, with no return options. This wasn't a "let me try it out for a week and if I don't like it I will return it to you" transaction. Bottom line is buyer beware. And furthermore, how do I know that the sudden buzzing and apparent tailrise was not due to something that he did with the guitar? Once it is out of my hands, its out of my hands. If the shipper had damaged it during transit, that would be another complete story.

[Jonathan]

Thank you Jonathan, most of the comments here have been positive. All I can tell you is that the person I sold it to was "less than polite" about the whole situation. In fact I am being way to kind by saying that. He had every opportunity to ask more questions, ask for more closeup pics, etc. This wasnt a "lemme try it for a week to see if I like it" transaction. From what I have heard from others, he has a habit of doing such a thing, buying something sight unseen, then returning it for whatever reason. Good guitarist or not, he didn't impress me as a person.

 

I can't speak to his buying habits, and I can no more vouch for his integrity than I can yours. I won't try to stand up for him here, and I'm not about to try to say who's right or wrong. If he was "less than polite," I can understand your attitude.

 

However, I think it's possible for two people to exercise all reasonable due diligence, act in good faith, and still have the deal come out badly. I'm sorry it happened to the two of you. Better luck in your future transactions.

[GuitArtMan]

Will: While I have never heard of it being referred to a tailrise, what the guy might be talking about is a situation, almost a phenomenon, where the "tail" end of the fret board rises up. It usually occurs at the very end of the fret board where it extends "over the body". The only way to correct it is with a fret job. The tech would need to pull out the frets and shave/plane/sand the finger board flat, then re fret it. If not, the strings will hit the frets at the 20th, 21st frets and die. However, if it was a problem, I would expect that you would have seen it while you were playing . . unless you had the action pretty high . . . then you might not have noticed it.

Patrick is correct. I had an old Guild 12 string that this had happened too. It's as if the whole angle of the neck with relationship to the body had changed. A truss rod adjustment didn't help as the neck was straight, but where it joined the body the fingerboard appeared to rise - in my case because it did! There are two choices - reset the neck or plane the frets down. I'm not sure which Guild did (probably just plane the frets) but it came back playing fine.

[Guest HRB853370]

Patrick is correct. I had an old Guild 12 string that this had happened too. It's as if the whole angle of the neck with relationship to the body had changed. A truss rod adjustment didn't help as the neck was straight, but where it joined the body the fingerboard appeared to rise - in my case because it did! There are two choices - reset the neck or plane the frets down. I'm not sure which Guild did (probably just plane the frets) but it came back playing fine.

 

So wouldn't you agree that it is the prospective buyer's responsibility to assure himself/herself (barring any deception) that the item is exactly what he or she wants? If this was SUCH a HUGE concern to him, why didn't he ask me for closeups of the guitar? When he first asked the question, I replied, "what the heck is tailrise?" All I knew was the guitar looked and played just fine (to me, a nonprofessional player). I keep saying this over and over, but if he had any reservations about whether or not this guitar had a condition he was not going to be able to live with, he should have called me on the phone to discuss it (like I did with the seller of the cherry 535 I bought), OR just don't go through with the transaction if there is the slightest doubt. That sure sounds much safer to me than going through what he and I are going through now, which is a dispute through Pay Pal.

[GuitArtMan]

So wouldn't you agree that it is the prospective buyer's responsibility to assure himself/herself (barring any deception) that the item is exactly what he or she wants? If this was SUCH a HUGE concern to him, why didn't he ask me for closeups of the guitar? When he first asked the question, I replied, "what the heck is tailrise?" All I knew was the guitar looked and played just fine (to me, a nonprofessional player). I keep saying this over and over, but if he had any reservations about whether or not this guitar had a condition he was not going to be able to live with, he should have called me on the phone to discuss it (like I did with the seller of the cherry 535 I bought), OR just don't go through with the transaction if there is the slightest doubt. That sure sounds much safer to me than going through what he and I are going through now, which is a dispute through Pay Pal.

 

I can only go from my experience. With my Guild 12 string, the rise actually made is so that the action couldn't be lowered because it would buzz off of the high frets. You could sight down the neck, see that it was straight (or had slight relief) until it hit the body, then there was a rise. I don't know if this would have shown up in photos or not. Probably not your standard "show off the guitar photos" but maybe if somebody intended to show it in a photo they might have been able to capture it. I'm not sure if your H-550 has this or not, or too what degree, as I've never seen it. I will say you stated in your first post "I told him that there were no returns, and the sale was final" that would immediately put me on the offensive if a guitar I purchased was not as advertised. If I had purchased my 12 string in good faith and it arrived the way it did and the buyer said "all sales are final" I would have seen him in court. Frankly, if it were me I stay away from such deals as I feel the seller is trying to get rid of something, but that may just be me.

[Guest HRB853370]

I can only go from my experience. With my Guild 12 string, the rise actually made is so that the action couldn't be lowered because it would buzz off of the high frets. You could sight down the neck, see that it was straight (or had slight relief) until it hit the body, then there was a rise. I don't know if this would have shown up in photos or not. Probably not your standard "show off the guitar photos" but maybe if somebody intended to show it in a photo they might have been able to capture it. I'm not sure if your H-550 has this or not, or too what degree, as I've never seen it. I will say you stated in your first post "I told him that there were no returns, and the sale was final" that would immediately put me on the offensive if a guitar I purchased was not as advertised. If I had purchased my 12 string in good faith and it arrived the way it did and the buyer said "all sales are final" I would have seen him in court. Frankly, if it were me I stay away from such deals as I feel the seller is trying to get rid of something, but that may just be me.

 

Bottom line here is if you feel uncomfortable buying a guitar without seeing it, holding it, playing it, especially a high end guitar such as a Heritage, you should not buy it. I sensed that the buyer was uncomfortable, and that he went through with it anyhow with the attitude of, "if its exactly what I want, I will send it back". Things dont work that way all the time. If the no return option is offensive to you, then stay away from that seller. I do that with all my auctions to protect myself from that .01% of people that are just creeps, they buy something, complain about it and want to send it back. Just sayin.....

[Guest HRB853370]

Bottom line here is if you feel uncomfortable buying a guitar without seeing it, holding it, playing it, especially a high end guitar such as a Heritage, you should not buy it. I sensed that the buyer was uncomfortable, and that he went through with it anyhow with the attitude of, "if its exactly what I want, I will send it back". Things dont work that way all the time. If the no return option is offensive to you, then stay away from that seller. I do that with all my auctions to protect myself from that .01% of people that are just creeps, they buy something, complain about it and want to send it back. Just sayin.....

 

Bottom line here is if you feel uncomfortable buying a guitar without seeing it, holding it, playing it, especially a high end guitar such as a Heritage, you should not buy it. I sensed that the buyer was uncomfortable, and that he went through with it anyhow with the attitude of, "if its NOT exactly what I want, I will send it back". Things dont work that way all the time. If the no return option is offensive to you, then stay away from that seller. I do that with all my auctions to protect myself from that .01% of people that are just creeps, they buy something, complain about it and want to send it back. Just sayin.....