Question for Patrick

[zeittgeist]

Being new around here, I have been reading through old threads. Of particular interest is the reasoning that went into specing a fixed rather than floating pup on your new custom ordered Golden Eagle. I am looking for a used GE and would like some pointers deciding which way to go.

Thanks,

Daniel

[Kuz]

Patrick is a wealth of knowledge when it come to arch tops. I recently contacted him for advice before buying my Golden Eagle.

 

I'll let him give you his answer, but I have own two Golden Eagles (one with a floating pickup, and this new one with a 4 point mounted humbucker). I will compare and contrast the two, taking in to consideration they were two different guitars but the same model guitar.

 

The Golden Eagle with the floater was more acoustic sounding. Plugged in it sounded like a mic'd arch top. Very woody.

 

This Golden Eagle with the 4 point humbucker sounds bigger, fatter, more bass and more ringing highs. I personally don't feel I have lost any acoustic properties with the mounted humbucker. For me, these arch top guitars are meant to be played through an amp and I have ZERO regrets with the mounted humbucker. I like the bigger, fatter, thicker tone.

 

For me, it was a no-brainer, the 4 point mounted pickup Golden Eagle.

[zeittgeist]

Hey, Kuz, thanks. This is exactly the kind of response I was hoping for. And the quality of the sound you describe with the 4 point mounted pickup on your GE is just what I am looking for. Do you know when Heritage started offering this configuration? Most of the used GE's I see have the floating pickup.

[Patrick]

Being new around here, I have been reading through old threads. Of particular interest is the reasoning that went into specing a fixed rather than floating pup on your new custom ordered Golden Eagle. I am looking for a used GE and would like some pointers deciding which way to go.

Thanks,

Daniel

 

zeittgeist . . I would agree with John (Kuz) on almost everything he said. Where he and I might have a slightly differing opinion, is due to the fact that he no longer owns his Golden Eagle with the floater. The mounting procedure developed by Ren Wall of Heritage, called 4 point mounting, does allow for a greater retention of tone from the sound board than any other mounting procedure. (Leave it up to ol' Ren to come up with something like that. His mind is always working on ways to improve what they do.) However, there is definitely a slight loss of acoustic properties when ever anyone cuts a big ol' hole (or God forbid 2 holes) in the top and 2 smaller ones for the knobs to be mounted to. Then, tightening the nuts to affix the knobs also affects the movement in the top and its ability to "move air."

 

I have 2 Golden Eagles with mounted neck pups. (I ordered the first in 1994, which will help answer your question of when they started to mount pups). I also have a Golden Eagle with a floating pup. So, I have an advantage that Kuz no longer has . . which is probably why he may have forgotten what a Golden Eagle sounds like with the sound board unimpeded by hardware attached to it. The difference in tome and projection . . acoustically . . is nothing short of amazing. I can honestly say that my Golden Eagle with the floating pup sounds every bit as good as guitars I have played which are worth 10 times more. Keep in mine that ALL of the Golden Eagles with a floating pup are X braced (unless specified otherwise) . . and some are tap tuned. Most of the Golden Eagles with mounted pups are parallel braced (less chance of top sag) and will not be tap tuned for the same reason. Tap tuning usually results in a thinner top. Heritage is reluctant to tune the top if it will include hardware/electronics. Sometimes tuning the top means not only shaving/carving/sanding additional wood from the top . . but also from the X bracing as well. Too risky with hardware mounted on the top.

 

The reason I went for the mounted pups, is because I thought I might be going back to the occasional gig or jam session with amplification. (Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be working out.) The mounted pup is much less prone to feed back at higher volume settings.

 

The other thing I like about each of my arch tops with floating pups, is that I have ordered them with a second pick guard with no cut out for a pup. So, in about 10 minutes, with the help of only a screw driver, I can convert them to a truly acoustic arch top. If you're going to be playing in a setting with other amplified instruments, i.e. bass, key boards, etc., and/or horns . . the mounted pup is the way to go. However, if you mount 2 pups on an arch top you've lost almost all of its acoustical properties. Hope that helps!!

[zeittgeist]

Hi Patrick,

Yes, this really helps. At age 64, and even though I am now up to lesson 6 in Mickey Baker, the odds that I will ever play with other instruments are rather remote. Surprisingly I had not realized the Golden Eagle could be played completely acoustically. This seems like the most functional route for me to take. And easier too, as there seems to be more floating pickup GE's out there on the secondary market.

 

Any opinions on "good" or "lesser" years to take into account? I am currently watching, and corresponding with the owner of, a '97 on eBay.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and insights with me. This is truly a wonderful forum.

Daniel

[Kuz]

I would also confirm what Patrick is saying.

 

But I think you need to separate the two in terms of a more Modern tone (mounted humbucker) and old school Jazz tone of the (40s & 50s). I also had a Sweet 16 with a floater that I had converted to a 4 point humbucker (so you can see my bias alreday).

 

The Golden Eagle with the floater had more of the "thug a thug" tone and the notes had a quick response but less sustain (note definition & and less sustain is often sought out for a jazz box).

 

My current Golden Eagle with the 4 pt Humbucker and the Sweet 16 that I converted, offers more "PERCEIVED" sustain, better ability to adjust individual string volume (something you can't do with a floater) and a more rounder vs acoustic tone. I have a couple of nice acoustics, so my archtops are always amplified.

 

Most of what you hear on the radio today is a more modern arch top tone with mounted humbuckers. But if you want that more old school, almost like a mic'd acoustic tone, then get the floater.

 

Either way you will get a GREAT guitar.

[Kuz]

Here is a couple of clips that represent the difference in tone (although not the best tone quality)

 

1. Golden Eagle with floating pup (I hear a little thinner, more acoustic tone)

 

 

2. Golden Eagle with 4 point installed humbucker (this is actually a demo of my guitar before I bought it). I hear fuller, bigger, more sustain.

 

 

These demos I think are a good/accurate generalization of the two different types of tones.

 

Good luck,

 

John

[Patrick]

Hi Patrick,

Yes, this really helps. At age 64, and even though I am now up to lesson 6 in Mickey Baker, the odds that I will ever play with other instruments are rather remote. Surprisingly I had not realized the Golden Eagle could be played completely acoustically. This seems like the most functional route for me to take. And easier too, as there seems to be more floating pickup GE's out there on the secondary market.

 

Any opinions on "good" or "lesser" years to take into account? I am currently watching, and corresponding with the owner of, a '97 on eBay.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and insights with me. This is truly a wonderful forum.

Daniel

 

I agree. A floating pup gives you the most options. You could play it totally acoustic and it sounds fantastic. Also, if you do hook up with another jazz guitar player, you could still use the electric option. As far as some years being better than others . . I would say don't torture yourself with that nonsense. Pick a guitar you like and buy it. If it's structurally sound and it hasn't been beat to shit, then buy it, play it and love it!!! Don't worry about any minor imperfections it might have . . . they will only add "character" to the guitar. Keep this in mind . . . you will always do better buying from an HOC member. This is a family. We will give you the most accurate description and the most reasonable pricing. Each of us has our credibility and reputation at stake with the rest of the HOC membership. Just a thought.

[Gitfiddler]

Another vote for floaters on Golden Eagles here. And that is only because I do not plan on gigging with it. The reasons are due primarily to the feedback issue and the second having to do with my lack of jazz chops.

 

I really enjoy the sweet, full acoustic tones coming out of the F-holes. With just a little amplification, properly EQ'd, it just gets better. There is nothing like hearing your guitar's natural voice combined with an amp. Golden Eagles and the larger Super Eagles have that going on in spades.

 

Also, since I opted for a custom wound PAF by Kent Armstrong, there are twelve adjustment screws to better dial in the string-to-string tones.

 

If you find a great Golden Eagle I say go for it. You will not regret it.

 

 

[yoslate]

Both sound wonderful. I'd describe the floater as a bit more woody and airy...gorgeous! Do The Boys and The Girl build a wonderful archtop, or what...?!

[MartyGrass]

Obviously you need one of each.

 

Feedback can be an important issue with floating pups. Mounting the pup helps. A laminated top helps more. A center block further helps. Then there are solid bodies.

 

There are lots of choices and trade offs. Maple vs. spruce vs. mahogany hasn't been discussed yet.

 

One sound I enjoy is an archtop with half of the volume acoustic and the rest amplified. The floater helps with that. But there are thousands of tones and some of them you need a mounted pup for.

 

If I could only have one, I'd get a mounted pup, either a Seth or HRW.

[mark555]

wow, so much to learn, I have learned a huge amount just by reading the thread so far. Both of them sound wonderful to me.

[Spectrum13]

Teacher, please tell me how the four point mounting system developed by Ren works. Is it four screws going directly into the x brace or the four screws on the bracket that you adjust pickup height.

 

How do the other guys do it.

[Patrick]

Teacher, please tell me how the four point mounting system developed by Ren works. Is it four screws going directly into the x brace or the four screws on the bracket that you adjust pickup height.

 

How do the other guys do it.

 

 

No Grasshopper . . .you assumptions are incorrect!! There are grommets or spacers, at each of the 4 corners of the mounting ring. The act to keep the pup mounting elevated off of the sound board, except at those "4 points".

 

Now . . for not knowing that . . you must lift a red hot kettle with your forearms

[zeittgeist]

Would one have to use medium to heavy gauge strings in order to take advantage of the floating pup's acoustic benefits? I am currently using .010's, Chrome flat wounds on my H550 and am concerned my fingers aren't strong enough to push anything heavier. I already feel the added tension going to the 25.5" scale.

[Patrick]

Would one have to use medium to heavy gauge strings in order to take advantage of the floating pup's acoustic benefits? I am currently using .010's, Chrome flat wounds on my H550 and am concerned my fingers aren't strong enough to push anything heavier. I already feel the added tension going to the 25.5" scale.

 

No man . . . use what you feel most comfortable with. If it's .010s for you. . .then that's the correct gauge strings on YOUR guitar. As your finger strength and chops improve, if you want to go with a more robust string gauge for a more robust tone .. .then do so. But, right now, it's about enjoying your playing and your guitar. If .012s make for uncomfortable playing, then playing won't be enjoyable and you won't play. Do not worry about "correctness" at this point. Just play . . .play . . .play and enjoy.

 

At the last PSP event in Michigan, there was a really good jazz player there. Vince Lewis. He had the Sweetest Sweet Sixteen. He had me play it to try it out. The strings were actually . . . slinky!! Couldn't have been more than .010s. He SMOKED the jazz tunes he played. Just enjoy your guitar man!!

[zeittgeist]

No man . . . use what you feel most comfortable with. If it's .010s for you. . .then that's the correct gauge strings on YOUR guitar. As your finger strength and chops improve, if you want to go with a more robust string gauge for a more robust tone .. .then do so. But, right now, it's about enjoying your playing and your guitar. If .012s make for uncomfortable playing, then playing won't be enjoyable and you won't play. Do not worry about "correctness" at this point. Just play . . .play . . .play and enjoy.

 

At the last PSP event in Michigan, there was a really good jazz player there. Vince Lewis. He had the Sweetest Sweet Sixteen. He had me play it to try it out. The strings were actually . . . slinky!! Couldn't have been more than .010s. He SMOKED the jazz tunes he played. Just enjoy your guitar man!!

 

Yeah, I watched the YouTube of him playing "Honeysuckle Rose", and man, that cat was swingin'. Now I'm off to watch it again knowing he was playing .010's.

Thanks for all the info AND the support.

[Halowords]

Probably a quasi-hypothetical question, however . . .

 

Putting some thought into this, if I already have guitars that are my primary amped guitars, would I not be better served with a floating pickup variety of Golden Eagle? I can get (or so I'm told) pretty good Jazz tunes out of my Prospect, a 535, even a Les Paul, H-150, or Tele for that matter. What I can't get out of those is the acoustic tones of the Archtop. That would seem to be the main benefit, no? Just asking for myself, and anyone who might be interested, but if I've already got guitars that sound great plugged-in, and I want a guitar that sounds great acoustic, in this case a hypothetical eventual Archtop, would I not be better served with an Archtop that had the top intact aside from the F-holes and just using my solid or semi-hollow bodied guitars for any events where I needed to use an amp and feedback or volume were issues? Am I missing something? Feel free to tell me I'm wrong. It's not at all unlikely. But to me, I can plug my Prospect "Blues Deluxe" in and have a great fairly-acoustic tone in an amplified setting. What makes the Golden Eagle or another really nice fully-hollow Archtop such an appealing purchase is that it would add that great acoustic sound. While I think it'd be kind of cool to plug it into an amp, really, why would I need to? Particularly if it will be diminishing the acoustic sound for one, and if I can do that with my other guitars for another.

 

Let me know if I am totally missing something.

[Patrick]

Probably a quasi-hypothetical question, however . . .

 

Putting some thought into this, if I already have guitars that are my primary amped guitars, would I not be better served with a floating pickup variety of Golden Eagle? I can get (or so I'm told) pretty good Jazz tunes out of my Prospect, a 535, even a Les Paul, H-150, or Tele for that matter. What I can't get out of those is the acoustic tones of the Archtop. That would seem to be the main benefit, no? Just asking for myself, and anyone who might be interested, but if I've already got guitars that sound great plugged-in, and I want a guitar that sounds great acoustic, in this case a hypothetical eventual Archtop, would I not be better served with an Archtop that had the top intact aside from the F-holes and just using my solid or semi-hollow bodied guitars for any events where I needed to use an amp and feedback or volume were issues? Am I missing something? Feel free to tell me I'm wrong. It's not at all unlikely. But to me, I can plug my Prospect "Blues Deluxe" in and have a great fairly-acoustic tone in an amplified setting. What makes the Golden Eagle or another really nice fully-hollow Archtop such an appealing purchase is that it would add that great acoustic sound. While I think it'd be kind of cool to plug it into an amp, really, why would I need to? Particularly if it will be diminishing the acoustic sound for one, and if I can do that with my other guitars for another.

 

Let me know if I am totally missing something.

 

I think you pretty much hit it on the head and answered your own question. Just, don't think the you can't use an arch top with a floating pup through an amp. You can. You just can't crank it up to loud. I think Ren's 4 point neck pup mounting process is a good compromise between the two . . . but, for the best acoustic tone and properties . . go with an X braced tap tuned top with a floating pup. There's nothing like it.