H137/357 sustain problem

[MartyGrass]

The standard explanation for where the LP sustain comes from always includes the maple cap. This is discussed in The Beauty of the Burst, for example.

 

If that's true, the korina and mahogany slab Heritage would have inferior sustain. Does anyone accept that?

 

 

 

Fender gets around the sustain problem by having a large metal interface with its body.

 

 

 

Hmmm?

[NoNameBand]

There is no doubt that a guitar sound = the sum total of it's components, I'm not sure that any one component adds or decreases sustain/tone etc. For all we know, it may be the grain/density maybe even the age of the wood affecting sustain more than a Maple cap vs Mahogany slab. I don't believe that it is predictable when selecting woods for a build. If it was, all grand pianos and wood instruments would sound the same. Regardless of effect, neither wood is all or nothing. Alder, Basswood, Maple, Mahogany, Korina and so on, they all have great tone/sustain characteristics. I think some of it has to be hype. I don't if it has ever been measured or can be consistently.

 

Did you try plugging it in?

[FredZepp]

Perhaps some may sustain or attenuate certain frequencies.

 

For instance, I was reading a description of the difference in guitars with heavy mahogany or lighter mahagony a few days ago.

 

They said the heavy mahogany guitar had more pronounced lows and more pronounced highs. The lighter one was more woody sounding with smoother upper mids.

 

 

But then again, I'm commenting more on tone than on simply sustain.

[NoNameBand]

Perhaps some may sustain or attenuate certain frequencies.

 

For instance, I was reading a description of the difference in guitars with heavy mahogany or lighter mahagony a few days ago.

 

They said the heavy mahogany guitar had more pronounced lows and more pronounced highs. The lighter one was more woody sounding with smoother upper mids.

 

 

But then again, I'm commenting more on tone than on simply sustain.

 

I'm sure it's all affected in some way, but too many variables to predict, especially, after you plug it in to an amp/speaker, tube vs transistor, playing style, EQ, effects and so on.

[MartyGrass]

I'm waiting for someone with a 357 to get so upset at this post that he gives me his. Then I'll plug it in.

 

Mark, I completely agree with you on a couple of points. First, sustain is multifactorial. Second, hype and semi-founded opinion abounds. Third, you've got to play the instrument to judge.

[MartyGrass]

I'm sure it's all affected in some way, but too many variables to predict, especially, after you plug it in to an amp/speaker, tube vs transistor, playing style, EQ, effects and so on.

 

 

That's the guitarist in you talking. The drummer would have his complete response in three syllables or less.

[koula901]

I've had the experience of playing a 150 and a 137 through a pretty decent amp, and it seemed to me that the 150 was only slightly better at sustain. but now that i have a 137 and a 535, the 535 is a whole lot more sustain, but I am playing them through a cheap 5 watt amp at home, and the 137 has p 90s and the 535 has buckers, and of course different wood, fwiw.

[FredZepp]

With a good setup... I'd expect any of those tone woods to sustain quite well.

[NoNameBand]

That's the guitarist in you talking. The drummer would have his complete response in three syllables or less.

Uh, oh sh*t.

[Guest HRB853370]

That's the guitarist in you talking. The drummer would have his complete response in three syllables or less.

 

Watch it now! Maybe we will start a thread on the attributes of sustain in a drum shell!

[schundog]

That's the guitarist in you talking. The drummer would have his complete response in three syllables or less.

 

 

Mark, that wasn't very nice. (PSST. Cool it, we need these guys free services at PSPIV!!)

[MartyGrass]

Mark, that wasn't very nice. (PSST. Cool it, we need these guys free services at PSPIV!!)

 

 

My dirty little secret is that I was a drummer in the school band throughout high school and had a set of Ludwigs with Zildians in my basement.

 

I was a bad rock drummer but not too bad to keep me from sitting in when our real drummer was too drunk to continue. True story.

[MartyGrass]

Uh, oh sh*t.

 

 

No rudeness intended.

 

It's traditional to tease drummers since they usually aren't provided a mic for rebuttal.

 

After all, we can't all be as sophisticated as Slash and Iggy. Someone has to man the sticks.

[Guest HRB853370]

My dirty little secret is that I was a drummer in the school band throughout high school and had a set of Ludwigs with Zildians in my basement.

 

I was a bad rock drummer but not too bad to keep me from sitting in when our real drummer was too drunk to continue. True story.

 

Bad as in "Bad Ass"?

 

No offense taken, I am used to all the drummer jokes! My rebuttal is always try playing without the drummer you won't get very far!

[MartyGrass]

Bad as in not good at all.

[JackBaruth]

Finally have a moment to address this sustain issue... what follows is a mix of first-principles thinking and anecdotes from other sources. If you're easily bored, skip this post

 

When Les Paul built his first solidbody, he said he wanted to hear "the string alone". The way all acoustic guitars work is by making the string vibrate and then letting that vibration pass into the acoustic surfaces of the guitar so it can resonate. Since nothing is this world is free, the vibration energy in the body of the guitar has to come from somewhere. In this case it's the string itself. The string passes vibration energy into the body. This reduces the amplitude of the string's oscillation and so the note "dies" sooner.

 

The ultimate example of this was a "guitar" that Les built by attaching a string to a section of railroad track (Not a railroad tie, as he did to make the "Log" guitar; a section of metal track.) The mass and ridigity of the track meant that the string didn't transfer any vibration and so the sustain was outstanding. He was encouraged by this experiment and built a metal guitar. Unfortunately, it was extremely sensitive to heat transfer from the stage lighting so it wouldn't stay in tune.

 

Based solely on the above, one would think that sustain would be maximized by having the most mass and ridigity possible. This would avoid taking any energy out of the string. It occurs to me that a laminated neck-through design (like a 357) would qualify, since there is no neck joint to absorb vibration and the laminate plys tend to stiffen the neck. Which leads to Heretical Thought #1: The "wings" of a Bird don't matter very much. At most they add mass or serve as another cross-grain ply to further stiffen that section of the body, which is already the stiffest section since it's thicker. Heretical Thought #2: The same thing is effectively true for 535s and 555s.

 

The assertion made in "The Beauty Of The Burst" is that the tension between the glued maple top and the mahogany body enhances sustain by putting the whole guitar under stress. Unless you happen to be playing the guitar at exactly the same ambient temperature as was the case when it was assembled, the differing expansion rates of the maple and mahogany effectively "tension" the guitar. This changes the natural resonant frequency of the instrument and causes it to respond differently to the string.

 

Heretical Thought #3: Multi-ply guitars like Strats and Les Pauls with multiple planks are also stiffer and placed in some tension due to cross-grain differences. Heretical Thought #4: Pancake Lesters and plank Studios should sustain better than one-piece R9s. Heretical Thought #5: Glue cystallizes and therefore the more glue you have in a guitar, the more sustain. Non-Heretical Thought #1: But partial glue joints might create sustain-absorbing vibration. Insane Thought #1: This means that the $2000 "Historic Makeovers" where they steam out the Titebond partial joints in reissues and create solid glue joints from hide glue MIGHT ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING.

 

I'll stop now.

[DetroitBlues]

Too many questions, but it sounds like the more stiff a guitar, the better the sustain, no matter what its made out of. As far as tone is more noticable maybe more of the wood type than the stiffness. Either way, when people play guitars looking for long sustain, its the overdriven tone of an amp that makes the sustain really stand out. Add in some effects and the guitar could be a cigar box guitar and sustain for days. My own experience is a TOM bridge and end piece has more sustain than a strat style tremolo (unless the tremolo is blocked). This is why my tremolo is flush to the body of my strat to hold the strings tighter against the body to improve sustain.

[tulk1]

The standard explanation for where the LP sustain comes from always includes the maple cap. This is discussed in The Beauty of the Burst, for example.

 

If that's true, the korina and mahogany slab Heritage would have inferior sustain. Does anyone accept that?

Hmmm?

 

No.

[NoNameBand]

The glue in a band is the Drummer. Just to bring things full circle. Therefore, to increase sustain in a band or to sustain the band, you need a good drummer that is a good leader and facilitator. This is what tends to crystallize in the adhesion of a band, therefore, increasing sustain. So, apparently, it's all up to the drummer. Thanks MG for bringing this out and sharing it with the rest of the HOC. A valuable and important lesson to never underestimate the value of glue.

[MartyGrass]

Too many questions, but it sounds like the more stiff a guitar, the better the sustain, no matter what its made out of.

 

 

This is where the Ed Roman Cialis Guitar Rub shines.

[MartyGrass]

Thanks MG for bringing this out and sharing it with the rest of the HOC. A valuable and important lesson to never underestimate the value of glue.

 

 

I am here to serve.

[mars_hall]

The standard explanation for where the LP sustain comes from always includes the maple cap. This is discussed in The Beauty of the Burst, for example.

 

If that's true, the korina and mahogany slab Heritage would have inferior sustain. Does anyone accept that?

 

Fender gets around the sustain problem by having a large metal interface with its body.

 

Hmmm?

 

Inclusion of the maple cap does not mean exclusion of other factors. It is one in a list each contributing to rigidity. Jack has made several good points, though there is room for debate among the later points, mainly dealing with glued surfaces.

 

The whole topic of sustain is a classic physics problem that falls under The Laws of the Conservation of Energy (you might want to look it up for reference). Mechanical energy is instantaneous applied (the pluck) and converted to other forms (heat, acoustic, electromagnetic, etc) over time. The conversion of the initial mechanical energy within the string's vibration, and therefore conversion to other forms of energy, takes place mainly at the endpoints at wave reflection (bridge/fret or nut), though the wind friction and pickup magnetic fields also come into play.

 

The forces present within the initial energy vectors off in losses over time, mainly but not completely due to the elasticity of the materials used. Elasticity is a measure of rigidity or more correctly the ability of a material to return to a former state when externally stressed, such as through tension, vibration, etc.

 

Therefore, the remaining mechanical energy of the initial pluck is left to propagate the wave in the string, but continues to decrease through energy conversion over time. The lesser the elasticity of the the materials used, the quicker the conversion. This speaks of the mechanical path mainly, discounting the magnetic effect of the pups.

 

The way to increase sustain is to decrease the factors contributing to the energy conversion.

 

 

Now when you start talking about amplifiers and sustain, you are not talking about the original pluck and its initial mechanical energy alone. You are introducing a continuous external source of acoustic energy that is converted from electricity before the forming of a feedback loop. A portion of the original mechanical energy (the pluck) is converted to electrical energy which is augmented and amplified before being converted back into acoustic energy (the speaker) reaching the guitar with much of the initial frequency of the vibration. Depending on the quality of the feedback loop, the energy will work to excite the string vibration and counteract other conversion losses.

 

If you can not understand this, that is OK, and no comment is really necessary. With a little effort and focus, it is mostly there to be absorbed.

[FredZepp]

Now THAT is an answer.

And done in usual mars_hall fashion.

 

 

 

But in crafting a guitar, sustain is not the only consideration anyhow.

That is why after trying some all maple solidbodies, Gibson decided to make the guitars a Mahogany/Maple combination. The all maple versions sustained wonderfully, but the tone wasn't as they wished.