After 30 + years, I finally tried the "wrap around" method, here's MHO

[Kazwell]

Well, after finding out like a true dummy that it could be harmfull to have my tailpiece screwed all the way down as to have the strings pushing down on the back of the bridge, I went ahead this morning and tried the "wrap around " stringing method.

 

Well, from a completely objective standpoint since I was not completely sure what to expect, here's what I found:

 

Tuning remains stable.

 

No action adjustment required. String height remained the same.

 

String tension was reduced allowing better control over the strings.

 

Sustain appears to have improved by at least 20%.

 

Now here is the only gripe:

 

I lost some of that heavy, woody, punch-you-in-the-gut LP bite that I was getting with the strings pushing down on the end of the bridge.

 

It makes sense to me that despite potential damage, the strings pressing down on the bridge create a tone connection and the strings pick up the vibrations of the wood better through the bridge than through the tailpiece.

 

Does this make sense to anyone else?

 

I know the benefits appear to clearly outweigh the "only gripe", however, in the end, the purpose of a guitar like the (in this case 10 lb) H-150, is to fully realize it's unique tonal capabilities. Before, it sounded like a 10 lb tone monster, now it sounds like many other guitars, good sounding and better playing than before, but not as unique.

 

I have too much invested to potentially destroy the bridge. My only next step is to go for the cvg locking tailpeice system. Does anyone know if the H-150 requires the standard or metric size screws?

[Thundersteel]

Not everyone that tries the top wrap likes it. I've yet to try it.

 

As far as your question, I would ASSUME it's the standard, and not metric--if I'm wrong, please someone tell me!

[Kazwell]

Now I had a chance to play around fpr a while at higher volumes I have to say, yes I am finally getting the "endless sustain" that people speak of. It IS quite amazing actually. Its always a give and take. I have to dig a bit harder with a heavy pick and I can get some more of the grinding woody sound I really enjoy hearing. Maybe some more tweaks and some ear adjustment and who knows. Thanks to you who have offered suggestions. Today is a big step mostly forward.

[davesultra]

I've never done the top wrap thing either. I was thinking about it while restringing my Ultra this morning, maybee some other time. And I'm 99.9%+ that the threads are standard.   

[cosmikdebriis]

I'm intrigued by what you mean by "standard"

 

Are you referring to the threads being metric or imperial. And/or are you referring to the distance between the studs.

 

On either count, I wouldn't be surprised if it varied depending on manufacturer.

 

I'll have a play, compare the Schaller to some Japanese Greco stuff and let you know what I find out.

[wingnut1]

I tried top-wrapping for the first time last year.  I have my G* LP Std top-wrapped and my Heritage H150.  On the LP the groove in the high E string saddle isn't deep enough and the string slides out when I bend the string a full step or more.  I really like the sound of both guitars with the strings like this though.  I haven't tried it on my H157 and I doubt that I will since I want at least one LP style guitar not wrapped.

[jacques]

I'm intrigued by what you mean by "standard"

 

Are you referring to the threads being metric or imperial. And/or are you referring to the distance between the studs.

 

Like I said in the other thread about screwing down your tailpiece, I pity you guys....and they even call it 'imperial'... >

 

But, Cosmic, now you made TWO changes to your 150. Instead of just screwing up (-wards that is) your tailpiece you also topwrapped. Shouldn't you try the strings in the usual way first, and then without them touching the back of the bridge? Only if this leaves you with a dangerously high tailpiece, you can screw it down all the way and topwrap. Topwrapping will hardly ever give you the disired angle of strings that really press downwards on the saddles.

While we're at it - I remind all interested that the Schaller set of bridge and tailpiece I had on my H127 allowed complete screwing of the tailpiece without strings touching the bridge. Could have been that particular guitar, of course..... How are these things with your Firebird, Cosmic?

[davesultra]

I guess I meant to say US Standard threads.  :afro:

[brentrocks]

the next time i change the strings on my '00 170...i'm gonna try the wrap around again and see if it works better the second time

[cosmikdebriis]

I guess I meant to say US Standard threads.  :afro:

 

Just to be a bit anal, because I did engineering in college, the US standard thread is "UNF" or "Unified". Other threads include "Whitworth"

or "BSW", BSF" (British Standard Fine), BSP (British Standard Pipe), BA (British association) ISO Metric (Metric) and a few others of very little significance.

 

Ideally, anything requiring fine adjustment would use BSC (cycle) as this is very fine at 26 threads per inch. But it's not an ideal world.

 

Anyway... Having checked, Schaller hardware is NOT standard metric. Possibly UNF (American). But I'll see if I can check somehow.

[cosmikdebriis]

How are these things with your Firebird, Cosmic?

 

Ok, so I'll resist the temptation of posting yet another pic of it...  >    Any excuse will usually do... ;D

 

Suffice to say... I LOVE it, never been into that shape of guitar but I can't put it down. I don't think it's EVER been back in its case since I got it. No hope of it getting pick guard rot... :wink: ;D

 

I'm going to put the new SD P-Rails in... So that should hopefully just about crown it. 8)

 

Thanks again for the tip off and if anyone ever sees one advertised again... BUY IT. :angel:

 

One final thing... You seem to have confused me with someone else, I've never top wrapped a guitar. I suppose I ought to try though... :wink:

[Kazwell]

Well after some slight bridge adjustments am letting myself get used to this new feel, I need to tell you folks. I am truly floored. The string control and sustain is making this possibly the best guitar experience of my life. I am also using 9's for the first time since my Strat days, and to tell you the truth, I'm really liking them . Used to equate them with thin sound, but in this case, I think the sound is really full with the Seth Lovers, as opposed to single coils. I'm starting to wonder now if I even want to try to modify the tailpiece. Sad to say, but NOW, today I am finally getting a taste of the true H-150 experience the way it should have been all along. Despite all the mods I made, with the electronics, which definately helped the sound, this is the icing on the cake. This is what forums like this are all about. Had I not been a part of this, I would have never known to do this, and or had the option to modify the tailpiece. I think I'll get back here and jam some more....can't put this thing down... 8)

[High Flying Bird]

Just to be a bit anal, because I did engineering in college, the US standard thread is "UNF" or "Unified". Other threads include "Whitworth"

or "BSW", BSF" (British Standard Fine), BSP (British Standard Pipe), BA (British association) ISO Metric (Metric) and a few others of very little significance.

Ideally, anything requiring fine adjustment would use BSC (cycle) as this is very fine at 26 threads per inch. But it's not an ideal world.

Anyway... Having checked, Schaller hardware is NOT standard metric. Possibly UNF (American). But I'll see if I can check somehow.

 

Thank you Mr. Spock!

[jacques]

[quote author=cosmikdebriis link=topic=1352.msg16420#msg16420 date=1209252020

 

One final thing... You seem to have confused me with someone else, I've never top wrapped a guitar. I suppose I ought to try though... :wink:

 

Ahhh stupid me....the post was meant for Neill Kazwell :undecided:

Seems Neill is very happy at the time, so I shouldn't bother him....

 

So nice to hear from you that you like the Firebird so much. I have the same experience with my old 1988 Heritages - they play sooo well and are just a little different from the usual Les Paul and ES models that are perfect in their own ways. The Schaller pickups in my 162 are GREAT, but the ones in my new VIP2 (and those in my old and sold 127) are not perfect. They do sing and they do have great rythm sounds, but they feed back when the amp is turned up way loud. I have ordered a set of Seymour Duncan's Alnico II pro humbuckers. Hopefully I find someone to solder them in the right way, since there is a Var-I-Phase system on board that is rather complicated but allows for great rythm guitar tones.

[wingnut1]

[quote author=cosmikdebriis link=topic=1352.msg16420#msg16420 date=1209252020

 

One final thing... You seem to have confused me with someone else, I've never top wrapped a guitar. I suppose I ought to try though... :wink:

 

 

Ahhh stupid me....the post was meant for Neill Kazwell :undecided:

Seems Neill is very happy at the time, so I shouldn't bother him....

 

So nice to hear from you that you like the Firebird so much. I have the same experience with my old 1988 Heritages - they play sooo well and are just a little different from the usual Les Paul and ES models that are perfect in their own ways. The Schaller pickups in my 162 are GREAT, but the ones in my new VIP2 (and those in my old and sold 127) are not perfect. They do sing and they do have great rythm sounds, but they feed back when the amp is turned up way loud. I have ordered a set of Seymour Duncan's Alnico II pro humbuckers. Hopefully I find someone to solder them in the right way, since there is a Var-I-Phase system on board that is rather complicated but allows for great rythm guitar tones.

 

Hey Jaques, are those pickups potter?  You could get some beeswax and try wax potting them.  This will usually eliminate that squeal.

[jacques]

That sounds like some interesting advice, Wingnut! I'll see what will happen with the Alnico II pros and maybe experiment a little. You see, the Schallers are very alive combined with the tremolo. Also using the vari -phase on the bridge pickup and mixing that (very thin) sound with the neck p.u. I get wonderfull fairy tail tinklings or what shall I call it arpeggios.

[jamison162]

Topwrapping with 9's, AND Seth Lovers wiith A2 mags?  Hmm, the Seth's were bright and thin enough to me with a stock setup.  That may be a first.  I topwrap and use 11's due to the slinkier feel.  Every guitar is different and will respond different.  You really can't say which version is gonna do what for any particular guitar every time. 

 

On my H-150, I went with a set of TonePros locking STEEL studs, Gotoh lighweight aluminum tailpece, TP locking Nashville bridge, topwrapped.  I also have CTS pots, Jensen caps, wired 50's style and WCR Crossroads/Darkburst pickups.  And I thought this H Goldtop was the best LP I'de ever played, when it was stock.  You guys oute see, hear this thing now.  Of course, the highly polished frets, Fret Dr. board conditioner and locking 18:1 Grovers didn't hurt either.  I just need a new pickguard and nut now.

 

But yeah, topwrapping is a nice alternative.

[Cryoman]

String tension is not reduced. This would defy the law of physics. A string's pitch is determined by the materials & construction of the string (namely it's diameter, other things to lesser effect), its tension, and it's length.

 

If the length of the string between nut and saddle is not changed (you'll have major intonation problems if it has been as you've effectively changed the scale of the guitar) and you have the same strings, and they are tuned to correct pitch - the tension of the strings is identical.

 

The string neither knows nor cares that it has been around the bridge or straight across it before defining the vibrating portion determined soley by distance between nut and saddle.

 

Cheers, Cryoman

[Kazwell]

Not sure what is being directed at who in this post. I know you are a tone junky extrondinaire jamison162-and I mean that in a good way. I go with what feels and sounds best to me. I could care less about any rules of physics or whatever. I also have Jensen caps with the whole RD 50's setup. The 9s topwrapped w the Seths MAY be a first. Hell I saw EVH here in St. Lous last night. Great show, you can catch some of his solos from the tour on youtube. As I recall, he broke a few rules himself in his day.  :wink:

[fxdx99]

Having played a strat for so many years, I'd not paid attention to the stop piece height and did find that strings were touching the back of the bridge on  both 150 and lp guits since the stop piece was down pretty much to the bottom of guitar.  So raised it on both so that the strings cleared the back of the bridge.  Now the stop pieces are ~1/2" or so above the guitar body.  Can't say that I hear much difference with this move... but haven't done much a/b-ing yet. 

 

What's the 'normal' height of the stop piece above the guitar body (w/o top wrap and such that the strings clear the back of bridge)?  I've the vintage (Wolfe) style bridges on both lp and 150.  Both high and low e strings are the last to clear the bridge - would seem that I could remove some material of the bridge to provide more clearance angle, but I don't see that referenced anywhere (here or other forums).  My erlewine book doesn't cover much on this other than the 'clear the back of bridge for strings w/stop piece height' and he also mentions to try the 'stop piece to guitar body increases sustain' and makes it sounds as if he's unconvinced on that hypeothesis.

[jacques]

Here are two pics of my 150 with top wrapping and without, so you have an idea of the height of the tail piece and also of the different angles the strings make. I think Cryomans post makes sense, but I feel the sharp angle of the strings does have some effect on the downward force on the saddles. But...like I said, I did not notice any difference (and I didn't like the way my tailpiece leaned forward with the top wrapping).

 

http://www.jacquesguitars.com/Heritage150_English.html#13

http://www.jacquesguitars.com/Heritage150_English.html#14

[fxdx99]

Thanks, jacques.  Nice pics and site.  My stop piece is similar height - slightly higher as I have a thread showing above the guitar.  My saddle on the low e is further forward than yours for intonation, so need additional height to clear the bridge back.  Seems to work fine - can't really hear any difference in tone on either guitar after raising the stop piece.

[Spectrum13]

My belief..."wrap around" is a solution to a problem only some guitars have. I would look at the neck set angle, bridge height and type of bridge and view this relationship as a whole. If your screws are facing the tail, the height of the saddles, orientation of the saddles (mine face the same direction) and height of bridge above the maple with action set, will START to determine what you do with the strings after they leave the bridge. How well was your guitar built and if it is old, how much did the neck move from the 4% set angle it MAY have been built with? When Billy G topwraps his holly grail, that guitar is 50 years old so he most likely has issues unlike a 10 year old 150. Sorry, I don't intend to prevent anyone from playing/experimenting with their setup and reporting their observations. My track record for my 150 and 137 was spend 10% over the purchase price in order to optimize tone and playability. After much reading and experimentation on this subject, I felt it necessary to point out some basics left out of this equation and trust fellow forum members understand I am trying to be constructive.       

[Dick Seacup]

...If your screws are facing the tail...

 

Should they be?  Mine are setup with the intonation screws facing aft, but I've seen pictures of Tunamatic's setup with the screws facing forward (toward the neck).  Is there a right way?

[Spectrum13]

The right way has more to do with the "take off points" on the saddles. If you intend to change the saddle orientation consider the need to get a screw driver in there to adjust intonation which is dependant on distance from the bridge pickup to bridge and height of bridge & pickup rings or distance to and height of tail piece if you go the other way. The type of bridge and placement of the studs into the body limit how you can orient the saddles.