brentrocks Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 I don't play in a band, so my playing time is very inconsistent. Sometimes multiple times a day. Would i be better off to power up the amp and leave it on standby all day or turn it on and off each time I go down to play? What would be better on the tubes and the amp as far as being less wear and tear?
tulk1 Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 Rule of thumb - if you have a standby switch, turn the amp ON for 30 secs before full power (use the standby switch). If you don't have a standby switch, then the amp is designed to NOT have one and will power up slowly. It's that big full power hit to the tubes that strips electrons too fast. Bad for tubes. As for leaving the amp on or off, I always go with OFF. It's what that switch is for. If you don't just flip both switches ON every time, then you'll be fine powering up each time you go to use the amp.
jjkrause84 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 What he said... Power up, and down, every time you play....that's what I do.
111518 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Rule of thumb - if you have a standby switch, turn the amp ON for 30 secs before full power (use the standby switch). If you don't have a standby switch, then the amp is designed to NOT have one and will power up slowly. It's that big full power hit to the tubes that strips electrons too fast. Bad for tubes. As for leaving the amp on or off, I always go with OFF. It's what that switch is for. If you don't just flip both switches ON every time, then you'll be fine powering up each time you go to use the amp. I was taught that the standby switch turned on the heater elements in the tubes so that they warmed up to operating temperature before current flow began, and that you could essentially accomplish the same thing with an amp with no standby switch by turning the amp on with the volume(s) at zero, and waiting the thirty seconds or so that you'd wait to throw the standby switch to begin to turn up the volume. This makes sense to me, but I'm no expert, and it could be one of those myths that circulate; others certainly have more knowledge and maybe different advice.
tulk1 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 I think thats a myth. Sorta like turning the vol to zero and playing your guitar when you power down will bleed the caps. Was looking for a verifiable source, but my aging memory can't find it. So I'll post some unsupported "facts". On amps without stand-by switches they normally use a rectifier that powers up slowly, allowing the tubes time to warm up before going to full power. Hence, no need for an extra switch in the system. Two amps that come readily to mind that don't have them are the Blues Jr. and the Carmen Ghia. I have to suspect that if one were needed, the good Dr. would have added one to his circuit.
kbp810 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 I think thats a myth. Sorta like turning the vol to zero and playing your guitar when you power down will bleed the caps. Was looking for a verifiable source, but my aging memory can't find it. So I'll post some unsupported "facts". On amps without stand-by switches they normally use a rectifier that powers up slowly, allowing the tubes time to warm up before going to full power. Hence, no need for an extra switch in the system. Two amps that come readily to mind that don't have them are the Blues Jr. and the Carmen Ghia. I have to suspect that if one were needed, the good Dr. would have added one to his circuit. Turning the volume all the way down is not the same as putting the amp in standby; with the volume all the way down there is still juice and signal going through the tubes; albeit it generally at frequencies that are inaudible to the ears. Right off the top of my head, the 5Y3 rectifier is one of those that warms up very slowly, and until the rectifier is warmed up there is no power going to the circuit; so it gives a chance for the filaments to warm up first.
212Mavguy Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 KBP! 5y3 warms up wuickly, not slowly, it's directly heated. Turn on one of your very cool amps that uses one with it out of the circuit, wait a minute for all the other tubes to get good and hot, then socket the 5y3, you should get some sounds within 5 seconds. 5v4, 5ar4 warm up more slowly, they are indirectly heated.
tulk1 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Turning the volume all the way down is not the same as putting the amp in standby; with the volume all the way down there is still juice and signal going through the tubes; albeit it generally at frequencies that are inaudible to the ears. Right off the top of my head, the 5Y3 rectifier is one of those that warms up very slowly, and until the rectifier is warmed up there is no power going to the circuit; so it gives a chance for the filaments to warm up first. Didn't say it does. Myth.
brentrocks Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 So it sounds like I should power down after every session. Thanks guys!
kbp810 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Didn't say it does. Myth. Sorry about that Tulk, meant that reply to be directed more towards what 111518 had said
kbp810 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 KBP! 5y3 warms up wuickly, not slowly, it's directly heated. Turn on one of your very cool amps that uses one with it out of the circuit, wait a minute for all the other tubes to get good and hot, then socket the 5y3, you should get some sounds within 5 seconds. 5v4, 5ar4 warm up more slowly, they are indirectly heated. That's why I should wait to post until after a cup of coffee or two in the morning There are versions of the 5y3 that are indirectly heated and start up slowly, but you are right - in either case though a tube rectifier in general does act somewhat like a thermistor, in that they do need some degree of warmup before they let current through. The only amps that really "need" a standby switch would be those with the average solid state rectifier.
brentrocks Posted July 4, 2011 Author Posted July 4, 2011 Thanks guys. It sounds like I should just turn it on, play, turn it off.
111518 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Turning the volume all the way down is not the same as putting the amp in standby; with the volume all the way down there is still juice and signal going through the tubes; albeit it generally at frequencies that are inaudible to the ears. Right off the top of my head, the 5Y3 rectifier is one of those that warms up very slowly, and until the rectifier is warmed up there is no power going to the circuit; so it gives a chance for the filaments to warm up first. Suspected there must be some advantage in the stand-by, although I guess perhaps less current (by turning down the volume) is marginally better than more current, so perhaps like many myths there is a bit of truth in there somewhere. Also interesting to know that the rectifier tube delays the beginning of current flow while the other tubes heat up. Hadn't thought about that. Really understanding tube amp operation is something I'm committed to eventually doing, but, in the meantime, I appreciate the knowledgeable posts here that add bits and pieces to my understanding. Thanks.
Trouble Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Suspected there must be some advantage in the stand-by, although I guess perhaps less current (by turning down the volume) is marginally better than more current, so perhaps like many myths there is a bit of truth in there somewhere. Also interesting to know that the rectifier tube delays the beginning of current flow while the other tubes heat up. Hadn't thought about that. Really understanding tube amp operation is something I'm committed to eventually doing, but, in the meantime, I appreciate the knowledgeable posts here that add bits and pieces to my understanding. Thanks. One advantage to the standby is during gigging, you can switch to standby for a break, when you come back your tubes are still hot and sound like they did when you left. I know that my old Super Reverb sounds quite a bit warmer after it has been on for an hour or so, I'm not exactly sure why and I don't notice so much of a difference with my newer tube amps, but with the Super at least I definatley want to leave it on when I take a break so it sounds the same when I come back. I have no idea what it does for tube life to leave it on like this, (I suspect nothing good) but at least the immediate tone quality is unchanged. While we are on the subject does anyone have an idea why the tone of the Super chnges after it has been on for a while? Also, I suspect this is another myth but I know a few old school guys who think it is best to put a tube amp in standby for an hour or so before playing, thinking maybe these two things might be somehow related, any opinions?
kbp810 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Suspected there must be some advantage in the stand-by, although I guess perhaps less current (by turning down the volume) is marginally better than more current, so perhaps like many myths there is a bit of truth in there somewhere. Also interesting to know that the rectifier tube delays the beginning of current flow while the other tubes heat up. Hadn't thought about that. Really understanding tube amp operation is something I'm committed to eventually doing, but, in the meantime, I appreciate the knowledgeable posts here that add bits and pieces to my understanding. Thanks. Well, let's take a step back for a moment here The below is a long winded yet perhaps overly simplified explanation... but thought it might help Tubes don't much care for having to amplify anything until they are heated and ready to be up to the task; so the standby switch keeps that end of the amp turned off. A tube rectifier also has to heat up before it can effectively start doing it's job, which is to supply power to the amp, so while they are on a different heater tap (5v vs 6.3v), by the time it's heated and starts doing it's job, the rest of the tubes are ready (or just about ready) to do their job as well. A Solid State rectifier doesn't have to wait to heat up to it's job, which is why a standby is really more important for SS rectified amps. That being said, and taking a SS rectified amp as the main example; amp on, standby on, and guitar volume all the way down on startup; signal can still going to try and get through the tubes before they are ready for it. (also the same if the guitar was not even plugged in) So... the standby serves it's main purpose by allowing the tubes to warm up before you put signal through them. The standbys potential second purpose, is to silence the amp when you want it on and ready to go, but are taking a short break from playing it - to this effect turning the volume all the way down on the guitar could also do the job; Though on that note, another idea for the standby is so you could unplug the guitar and not hear that nasty "pop" sound; if you turn the volume all the way down and pull the plug, your still probably going to hear that pop. Of course that's were a silent tip comes in handy (underlying shamless plug for GT cables here )!
Trouble Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Well, let's take a step back for a moment here The below is a long winded yet perhaps overly simplified explanation... but thought it might help Tubes don't much care for having to amplify anything until they are heated and ready to be up to the task; so the standby switch keeps that end of the amp turned off. A tube rectifier also has to heat up before it can effectively start doing it's job, which is to supply power to the amp, so while they are on a different heater tap (5v vs 6.3v), by the time it's heated and starts doing it's job, the rest of the tubes are ready (or just about ready) to do their job as well. A Solid State rectifier doesn't have to wait to heat up to it's job, which is why a standby is really more important for SS rectified amps. That being said, and taking a SS rectified amp as the main example; amp on, standby on, and guitar volume all the way down on startup; signal can still going to try and get through the tubes before they are ready for it. (also the same if the guitar was not even plugged in) So... the standby serves it's main purpose by allowing the tubes to warm up before you put signal through them. The standbys potential second purpose, is to silence the amp when you want it on and ready to go, but are taking a short break from playing it - to this effect turning the volume all the way down on the guitar could also do the job; Though on that note, another idea for the standby is so you could unplug the guitar and not hear that nasty "pop" sound; if you turn the volume all the way down and pull the plug, your still probably going to hear that pop. Of course that's were a silent tip comes in handy (underlying shamless plug for GT cables here )! Without fail I always hit the standby and unplug before it has time to power down so I still get the pop, you would think after 20 years or so I would learn but no. I think it may be some sort of subconscious thing as I know how much the guys in the band enjoy it, especially when I'm running through the PA system!
JeffB Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Im a bit.....casual? when it comes to stuff like this. I got my Fender Concert in 86-87 and didnt understand the reason for the standby switch. I pretty much just flicked the main power and standby switch on or off at the same time. I continued to do this right up until 2003-05. Not only did I do that but I would leave it on humming away for quite extended periods of time while I mowed the lawns, cooked dinner or drove down the road to buy some shoes. It was 2003ish-05ish I finally decided to give the amp a 21stish birthday present and have new tubes put in. The first thing I noticed once I had done the swap was there was no change in sound or feel. The new tubes sounded no different to the old ones that had been in there for 21ish yrs. I still have the old ones and try them in different amps from time to time. They work fine. I still out of habit flick the two switches on or off at the same time and have had no tubes blow in the 6-8yrs since I did the swap. I dont do this with any of my other amps. Power on then minimum 30sec's later standby on.....unless I forget and bang them both on at the same time.
Joe Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 Im a bit.....casual? when it comes to stuff like this. I got my Fender Concert in 86-87 and didnt understand the reason for the standby switch. I pretty much just flicked the main power and standby switch on or off at the same time. I continued to do this right up until 2003-05. Not only did I do that but I would leave it on humming away for quite extended periods of time while I mowed the lawns, cooked dinner or drove down the road to buy some shoes. It was 2003ish-05ish I finally decided to give the amp a 21stish birthday present and have new tubes put in. The first thing I noticed once I had done the swap was there was no change in sound or feel. The new tubes sounded no different to the old ones that had been in there for 21ish yrs. I still have the old ones and try them in different amps from time to time. They work fine. I still out of habit flick the two switches on or off at the same time and have had no tubes blow in the 6-8yrs since I did the swap. I dont do this with any of my other amps. Power on then minimum 30sec's later standby on.....unless I forget and bang them both on at the same time. What brand of tubes were in the amp originally and what brand did you replace them with? I've read articles which said that some tubes will last that long, but in my limited experience, have never had that kind of tube life.
NoNameBand Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 I've read recently that you should allow at least a full minute to Two minutes to reach full heat in the tubes, especially bigger amps 50-100 watts and the life expectancy is about 500 hours which equates to about 5 hours a day for a year. Leave on between sets on Standby (when playing a show) and power off when not in use.
smurph1 Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 Rule of thumb - if you have a standby switch, turn the amp ON for 30 secs before full power (use the standby switch). If you don't have a standby switch, then the amp is designed to NOT have one and will power up slowly. It's that big full power hit to the tubes that strips electrons too fast. Bad for tubes. As for leaving the amp on or off, I always go with OFF. It's what that switch is for. If you don't just flip both switches ON every time, then you'll be fine powering up each time you go to use the amp. My Classic 30 doesn't have a standby switch, but I'm thinking of having my tech put one on to do away with the "pop" on powering down..Is that a bad idea?
NoNameBand Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 My Classic 30 doesn't have a standby switch, but I'm thinking of having my tech put one on to do away with the "pop" on powering down..Is that a bad idea? I wouldn't think so as it serves to protect the life of the tubes as well as prevent power surges through the speaker which can also damage the speaker voice coil.
smurph1 Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 I wouldn't think so as it serves to protect the life of the tubes as well as prevent power surges through the speaker which can also damage the speaker voice coil. Cool..that's kinda what I was thinking..
Halowords Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 I know that my old Super Reverb sounds quite a bit warmer after it has been on for an hour or so, I'm not exactly sure why and I don't notice so much of a difference with my newer tube amps, but with the Super at least I definatley want to leave it on when I take a break so it sounds the same when I come back. [snip] While we are on the subject does anyone have an idea why the tone of the Super chnges after it has been on for a while? Also, I suspect this is another myth but I know a few old school guys who think it is best to put a tube amp in standby for an hour or so before playing, thinking maybe these two things might be somehow related, any opinions? I have no answer for you, however I DO notice my amp (current Marshall, and I think my former Vox AC15 too) seems to (have) sound(ed) better after being on for a while. As in, it sounded o.k. after I warmed it up and flicked off "standby", but sounded amazing after I had been playing for an hour or so and went to put the guitar down. It made me want to, well, never put my guitar down and just keep playing! I am not sure why, and not sure how wide-spread it is, but to some extent I seem to find the longer I play a tube amp the better it sounds. Kind of like the more beer you drink the better it tastes. It could help explain the "put it in standby for an hour then play" because, for one they might notice it sounds better, as well as the "more is better" mentality (i.e. if waiting a couple of minutes for the tubes to warm up is good, waiting five-to-ten is better, and waiting an hour after you mow the yard, take a shower, and eat a sandwich to flip off standby must be sensational!, the proof being how the amp actually sounds better when you do it!!!).
NoNameBand Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 I have no answer for you, however I DO notice my amp (current Marshall, and I think my former Vox AC15 too) seems to (have) sound(ed) better after being on for a while. As in, it sounded o.k. after I warmed it up and flicked off "standby", but sounded amazing after I had been playing for an hour or so and went to put the guitar down. It made me want to, well, never put my guitar down and just keep playing! I am not sure why, and not sure how wide-spread it is, but to some extent I seem to find the longer I play a tube amp the better it sounds. Kind of like the more beer you drink the better it tastes. If you've ever noticed, touring amps/bands, power up their amps at least an hour before the gig starts.
Joe Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 My Classic 30 doesn't have a standby switch, but I'm thinking of having my tech put one on to do away with the "pop" on powering down..Is that a bad idea? My Delta Blues would pop when powering down but quit doing it after I changed tubes.
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