Gruhn and Heritage

[111518]

Plexirocker's Nashville Experience thread included a discussion of George Gruhn's attitude toward/relationship with Heritage.  Here's a question and reply from Gruhn and Walter Carter's Q & A column in Vintage Guitar, v. 20, n. 05, March 2006, p. 76. 

 

If you disagree, please remember ...don't shoot the messenger.

 

Q: I have owned three Heritage guitars and found them to be well-crafted instruments that play and sound great.  I've also been impressed by the factory's willingness to customize instruments.  Yet they seem to get no respect in the collectables market.  What do you think of the quality and collectibility of these instruments -- David L. Holst

 

A: Heritage Guitars are made in Kalamazoo, Michigan, in the original old Gibson factory building at 225 Parsons Street.  The Heritage employees and management are ex-Gibson company people who were active at Gibson from the late 1960s through 1984, at which time Gibson closed the plant.  In my opinion, Heritage guitars are very similar in quality to the Gibson instruments that these same people made when they were employed by Gibson.  New Heritage guitars are priced significantly cheaper than most Gibsons with similar appointments and used Heritage instruments tend to be available at relative bargains compared to the same age used Gibsons.  While I would not hold my breath waiting for used Heritage guitars to significantly appreciate in price or become sought after collectibles, they are excellent quality utility instruments which, in my opinion, provide excellent "bang for the buck." 

 

 

There's a guitar on Gruhn's site that makes a strong case for the connection between Heritage and Norlin -era Gibsons.  Check this out: Gibson Kalamazoo Award ...Golden Eagle by any other name, except the fretboard inlays and the volute...

http://www.gruhn.com/photo/AR3686.jpg[/img]

[Dick Seacup]

I like how he subtly slams Heritage with the "late 1960s through 1985" throw away line.

[yoslate]

Check this out: Gibson Kalamazoo Award ...Golden Eagle by any other name, except the fretboard inlays and the volute...

http://www.gruhn.com/photo/AR3686.jpg[/img]

 

 

And the price!  The Kalamazoo Award listed for $5350, in 1984, the last date I can get info for.  The source is Tony Bacon's book, The Ultimate Guitar Book.  Note also the wood pickguard.

[JohnCovach]

I like how he subtly slams Heritage with the "late 1960s through 1985" throw away line.

 

Yep, I remember reading this and being quite irritated.  First, it is fair to acknowledge that our Heritage guys were not only around during the tail end of the McCarty era, but that they also worked there during the less-glamorous Norlin 70s.  But that having been said, decisions to "value engineer" those Gibson guitars were likely the source of some frustration for Heritage.  When they separated from Gibson, they did not decide to make large quantities of production guitars, but sized everything down to custom-shop scale.  They kept the features of the high-end custom Gibson guitars, not the plastic-laden cheaper Gibsons of the late 70s.  It is true that they tried making hot-rod Fender-style guitars for a time in the 80s, but it seems like they soon realized that this was not their strong suit.

 

I have to say that part of me greatly respects George Gruhn for the role he has played in the preservation of vintage guitars.  He and Walter Carter have done a lot to help people get information on these guitars and that's wonderful.  But guys like Gruhn also played some role in the almost criminally inflated prices of vintage guitars--prices that make these guitars all but unavailable to working musicians (ironically, Gibson's slogan used to be "the workingman's guitar").  If there was ever a business that sold air-in-a-can, the vintage guitar business is it.  I won't say that it's dishonest, but I also can't say it does much of a service for most guitarists.

 

Consider this: Let's say the current Heritage reorganization fails (I hope not, but just consider it).  Guys like Gruhn will be among those who will scour the earth for Heritage guitars and drive the prices way up.  The the story will change, and a new one will replace it--one involving the true Kalamazoo craftsmen and their excellent guitars that went unappreciated for so many years until collectors discovered their value and exquisite quality.

[jacques]

It is true that they tried making hot-rod Fender-style guitars for a time in the 80s, but it seems like they soon realized that this was not their strong suit.

 

Beware John! As a very proud and satisfied owner of two of these excellent Fender-styles I object to the subtle connotations of this sentence in your otherwise quite valid observation. ;D

[Gitfiddler]

Gruhn's quote is very much a self-serving, suck-up to his loyalty to the Gibson brand.  He's made a ton of money selling their high priced new and vintage gear, so it seems clear why he would give such a tainted compliment to Heritage.

 

Now, fast forward 10 years or so, and let's see how 'vintage' Heritage archtops fare on the resale market.  Hmmm...these SOLID wood, hand made, high quality archtops will most likely be worth much more than they are currently, and with the relative limited availability of this type of US made instrument, even resellers like Gruhn will surely see the value in boosting the Heritage marque.  Maybe then he will be able to present a more 'objective' review of these fine products.

 

And as to the photo of the G-Brand Kalamazoo Award, check out this true Kalamazoo award Golden Eagle for comparison.

 

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/5284/heritagegoldeneaglepicspl2.jpg[/img]

 

http://img520.imageshack.us/my.php?image=h...aglepicspl2.jpg

[cook]

The bottom line is that Gruhn says that they are excellent quality instruments which is true.  I don't buy my guitars thinking about future collectibility or resale value.  Gruhn has in other columns explained his thoughts on why things are collectible.  Quality is often a small part of the equation.  New Gibs aren't very collectible either because they make a lot of them and are readily available.  I think Heritages hold their resale value relatively well.  Sometimes I wonder who would buy a new LP at Guitar Center.  I see them for sale used for $800- $1000 less than new prices. 

[JohnCovach]

Beware John! As a very proud and satisfied owner of two of these excellent Fender-styles I object to the subtle connotations of this sentence in your otherwise quite valid observation. ;D

 

I'd buy a Heritage strat in a minute!!

[golferwave]

Yep, I remember reading this and being quite irritated.  First, it is fair to acknowledge that our Heritage guys were not only around during the tail end of the McCarty era, but that they also worked there during the less-glamorous Norlin 70s.  But that having been said, decisions to "value engineer" those Gibson guitars were likely the source of some frustration for Heritage.  When they separated from Gibson, they did not decide to make large quantities of production guitars, but sized everything down to custom-shop scale.  They kept the features of the high-end custom Gibson guitars, not the plastic-laden cheaper Gibsons of the late 70s.  It is true that they tried making hot-rod Fender-style guitars for a time in the 80s, but it seems like they soon realized that this was not their strong suit.

 

I have to say that part of me greatly respects George Gruhn for the role he has played in the preservation of vintage guitars.  He and Walter Carter have done a lot to help people get information on these guitars and that's wonderful.  But guys like Gruhn also played some role in the almost criminally inflated prices of vintage guitars--prices that make these guitars all but unavailable to working musicians (ironically, Gibson's slogan used to be "the workingman's guitar").  If there was ever a business that sold air-in-a-can, the vintage guitar business is it.  I won't say that it's dishonest, but I also can't say it does much of a service for most guitarists.

 

Consider this: Let's say the current Heritage reorganization fails (I hope not, but just consider it).  Guys like Gruhn will be among those who will scour the earth for Heritage guitars and drive the prices way up.  The the story will change, and a new one will replace it--one involving the true Kalamazoo craftsmen and their excellent guitars that went unappreciated for so many years until collectors discovered their value and exquisite quality.

 

  "Air in a can" is a wonderful way to put it John.  I remember when there were plenty of Pre-CBS Strats available that anyone could afford to buy. Not anymore. And who in the world has convinced the guitar collecting public that 70's Strats are worth the kind of money that they're fetching now? IMO these guitars are some of the biggest pieces of crap ever bolted together.  Give me a brand new Fender for a few hundred anyday over those albatrosses!  Last Summer when the fate of Heritage was uncertain these dealers that have badmouthed Heritage were scrambling to buy everyone that they could get their hands on. I hope that the boys in Kalamazoo keep on building us great guitars that we can afford for many moons to come.

[slider313]

  "Air in a can" is a wonderful way to put it John.  I remember when there were plenty of Pre-CBS Strats available that anyone could afford to buy. Not anymore. And who in the world has convinced the guitar collecting public that 70's Strats are worth the kind of money that they're fetching now? IMO these guitars are some of the biggest pieces of crap ever bolted together.  Give me a brand new Fender for a few hundred anyday over those albatrosses!  Last Summer when the fate of Heritage was uncertain these dealers that have badmouthed Heritage were scrambling to buy everyone that they could get their hands on. I hope that the boys in Kalamazoo keep on building us great guitars that we can afford for many moons to come.

 

The 70's strats were the worst!! The three bolt neck? The '79 model year had weight and finish issues out the wazoo. Ever play a 10 lb. strat? Find yourself a nice '79 and you'll see what I mean. The dealers who badmouth Heritage guitars are the same ones with the "shit to gold" attitude. We all know the resale is lower than other top makers,but don't give the line,"If I give you $800.,what am I going to sell it for?" Just look on GC's website at the $1450. H150's.and how they talk up the bang for the buck. If you bring one to trade in or sell.................well it's back to;it's shit when it's yours and gold when it's ours.

[plexirocker 68]

Slider and John NAILED it. If you're trying to sell it or trade it's worth nuthin' then once it's on their wall it's real rare, a "boomer" and all that other nonsense.

 

I wish I had a buck for everyone I sold to a dealer that I was told "it's a refin" or the neck has a "twist", then it would be sold as original finish and "straight" neck, no issues.

 

The game is all but up for many vintage dealers. They're pretty much done. They simply WON"T be able get needed inventory to sell. It's drying up all over.  I can remember trying to sell late 50's clean strats that were selling in the 7500 range and being offered 3500, that ain't fair. I know the dealer has to make money but..........  Ebay and other selling outlets will make many of the middle men simply disappear.......

 

 

Back in the day the vintage dealer was the go between between sellers and buyers. Not really needed that much anymore, there are lots of folks with as much or more knowledge the many of the dealers that are so called experts.

 

It is STUNNING to me that the bad guitars that were partly responsible for the vintage "thing" are commanding crazy prices now. Now that's just hype and BS. It also proves price is not the Barometer for quality or a great guitar. Most of it is the hype factor and romantic ideas about the guitars we wanted as kids but couldn't afford. Bingo

 

"Air in a can" I love that line ;D

 

 

plexi

[jacques]

I'd buy a Heritage strat in a minute!!

 

Well John, here's your chance:

 

http://www.heritageownersclub.com/forums/i...pic,1375.0.html

 

Maybe you are even allowed in the Red H162 Hot Club after I have thoroughly examined your credentials :afro:

[dblazer]

Gruhn is an honest guy. I don't think Heritage guitars will ever achieve the collector's values that Gibsons do, but who cares?

 

Play your Heritage happily. They're great guitars.

[slider313]

Gruhn is an honest guy. I don't think Heritage guitars will ever achieve the collector's values that Gibsons do, but who cares?

 

Play your Heritage happily. They're great guitars.

 

I met George Gruhn at a LI,NY guitar show some years back. He was friendly and didn't mind talking shop. Yes, I believe he's a honest person, but no one can predict what will or will not be collectible. He may have also been playing it safe in case Heritage couldn't recover. Who would have thought '70s strats could ever bring the prices they are being sold for today? How about Supro,Airline and the rest of the Valco line? These were lower end guitars and amps that have suddenly become desirable. I believe it all boils down to early Americana as in the antique toy market. Certain things will never again be made in the good old USA. Heritage is,I believe,the only US guitar company that doesn't have a budget line coming out of Asia. They may never command the prices vintage US made guitars, but I believe the early ones will be collectible to some degree and good used examples will hold better resale value.

[Spectrum13]

I see no logical reason NOT to believe these will be highly collectable in time. Relatively low production numbers, quality as good or better than other major brands, high number of one-off and special additions, all classic designs built in the old world /American traditional way by the guys that built them in the late 1950's. The headstock factor does not hold water when compaired to Supro and 70 Fenders. And we all know how well they play and sound. I did not think my 68 Goldtop would be ever be worth more than the $275 I paid for it either.

[JohnCovach]

If I had my way, none of these guitars--including the Fenders and Gibsons--would be collectible.  The development of the vintage guitar market over the last 20 years or so is a real shame from a player's point of view.  In most cases, it only serves to take instruments out of circulation among those who wold use them to play music.  And once you have a guitar like that, you're afraid to change anything because it might hurt the value, etc.  I'm glad I modified my older guitars before they got collectible!

[yoslate]

If I had my way, none of these guitars--including the Fenders and Gibsons--would be collectible.  The development of the vintage guitar market over the last 20 years or so is a real shame from a player's point of view.  In most cases, it only serves to take instruments out of circulation among those who wold use them to play music.   And once you have a guitar like that, you're afraid to change anything because it might hurt the value, etc.  I'm glad I modified my older guitars before they got collectible!

 

At the point a guitar is considered, by anyone, an "investment," I pretty much lose interest!  I don't read Vintage Guitar, I no longer go to Rumbleseat when I'm in Ithaca, and don't give much thought anymore to how much I sold what for and what I could've gotten for it now, if I'd only held on to it.  I find myself much more excited by the imminent arrival of my Super than the fact I could go to a pal's shop and play a '54 Strat all day, anytime I want.  I'd rather listen to you guys talk about the relative merits of your Millies, 150's, 575's and look at the pics you've posted of instruments you're playing, than check out all the vintage stuff Matt Umanov or Dave has.  Yeah, I know I've talked here about having owned this and played that, but it's all so...inaccessible anymore as to have become nearly irrelevant. 

 

What's not irrelevant is what's being played  on those instruments that lie on the bed, or just in the next room, or on the stand by the comfortable sofa where we watch TV and play along, with the mute button....  Just today, for the first time, I fired up the thread on which everyone posted a sound clip of a tune's intro; I just scrolled through and listened to, maybe, twenty-five.  And I thought, how cool is that?  All these guys, picking these guitars up, plugging in and banging away, just to amuse themselves and someone else.  Took just the 150 out to a gig last night.  It has plenty of war wounds, which would preclude a lot of potential buyers, e-bayers and people on this site, from giving it a second thought.  But that guitar's story, that neck, and that tone through the good Deluxe....