Origin of Heritage maple caps

[MartyGrass]

I thought most of Heritage's maple came from Michigan, but I don't know.

 

I found this on the LP Forum: Red Maple, called "Acer Rubrum" is indeed the softest I've seen with a specific gravity of about .46. Sugar Maple, runs around .57 (Rock Maple) and Northwestern Bigleaf is around .56. I've worked a piece of Northwestern Bigleaf quilted maple before and it's definitely extremely hard. Electron microscope scans found online show a huge difference in the density of the fibers in Red Maple.

 

Eastern Maple, as it's being called on this forum and on the PRS website, is a misnomer. I'm suspecting that the real trick to those sweet Les Paul Sunburst sounds is the use of Michigan-grown Red Maple for the tops. Why else would Ted McCarty have specified "Michigan red maple" for his McCarty models? Why are Gibson Reissues advertised by sellers as having "red maple tops"?

 

Again, Gibson's meticulously-researched all of the aspects of their most famous Les Pauls, and yet they only state their tops are "figured maple"? I think there's a secret they're keeping hushed up.

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I found this quite interesting. You history buffs probably have this all figured out, but I'm confused.

 

Back in the 50s, the purpose of the maple cap was to increase brightness. Clearly it is now just as much for the sake of art. But was the Red Maple chosen because it is a softer maple or because it was close by and convenient for Gibson? If it was for convenience, then serendipity created the gold standard of tone in the solid body HB guitar.

 

 

Here's another quote from the LP Forum that relates: I've been checking into the various maples used, and what I found was a small reference to Ted McCarty mentioning that "PRS McCartys" were to be made with "red maple tops, just like the old LP Sunbursts". These weren't highly figured tops, and the maple was sourced from the Michigan forests. I believe Ed Roman has also mentioned something about the woods used for the old "holy grail" LPs, not that he can always be trusted...

 

In looking at photos, I find that red maple, or "soft maple" as woodworkers call it, is significantly less dense than Eastern "Rock" or "Sugar" Maple and Northwestern "Big Leaf" Maple. It is considered another species. For a few Reissues, I've seen sellers advertise that they have "red maple" tops, and not the harder Eastern or Northwestern maples. There are significant differences in the grain which easily mark the "red maple" tops. Generally, those mineral stains and squiggly grains are a characteristic of red maple, as they're present in both the ORIGINAL '58, '59, and '60 Sunbursts, AND in the Gibson Custom Shop Reissue series guitars. Gibson, however, makes a decided point of NOT saying which variety of maple is being used. I find this VERY curious, especially in the case of the new VOS series which is touted as the "most accurate reproductions of the original Les Paul Sunbursts to date". This is an obsession to the point of lunacy, with the same grain filler, CTS pots, wire, bumblebee capacitors, etc, being used now. Yet Gibson somehow FAILS to note what sort of maple they're using for the tops? They're quite insistant upon using HONDURAN mahogany instead of the cheaper AFRICAN mahogany, yet they want us to believe that all maple sounds the same?

 

I call BS here. Obviously, a softer maple will make for a less-bright sound, and to anyone who's ever compared a new VOS to a Memphis-built "Standard" can attest, there's a HUGE difference in the sound between the two. Is Gibson using red maple for their "Standards"? No, probably not as the warmer winters in the last two decades have made figured red maple harder to find. Are they still using it for VOS and Reissue guitars? To my eyes, and ears, it would appear to be so. Just browsing through privatereserve.com shows quite a selection of flamed tops with squiggly grain and mineral marks. Even the "plain top" models, which can be had for about $3k, show these marks.

 

My question is, is the red maple top the real secret of the Custom Shop models?

 

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I'd love to hear from anyone who can shed some light on where Heritage's maple caps come from and whether the wood matters.

[DetroitBlues]

Maybe the the pair of Red Maples in my back yard are worth a fortune!

[MartyGrass]

Maybe the the pair of Red Maples in my back yard are worth a fortune!

 

 

They are not cheap!

[DetroitBlues]

They are not cheap!

 

They're almost 70 years old, and the one has all sorts of twists in it.... Might be extremely curly-ness to it!

[Steiner]

Let's "harvest" it DB and find out! I know some guys that can get it into slab shape

 

MartyGrass - I honestly don't know the variation within maple species. I do know there is easily a 10% difference in Specific Gravity within species and sometimes within a given tree. Growth rate will influence the grain too. The red maple's Specific Gravity in DB's yard is going to be considerably different from one that grew to the same proportions in a dense forest. The difference in growth rate will conditionally influence Specific Gravity.

 

I've never seen a red maple grow in a dense forest; not to say they don't. It brings up an interesting point. Perhaps those behemoth 59's are weighted by the cap too. Something to ponder...

[Blunote]

I just happened to have my "Nat'l Audubon Society Field Guide to N. American Trees" handy. It says the Black Maple, aka "Rock", or "Hard" maple is closely related to Sugar maple and has a similar range, though more common throughout Iowa. The range in Michigan seems confined to Southern counties. The Red Maple is also called 'Scarlet", or "Swamp" Maple and is most widely destributed from Maine to Florida and east to Texas and Minnesota.

 

The Sugar Maple, like the Black Maple is also variously called "Rock" or "Hard" maple and is found further North, covering all of Michigan's lower and upper peninsulas as well as many of the northern seaboard states not populated by the Black Maple. The guide specifically mentions this species as being a leading furniture wood, It mentios the special grain patterns, such as birdseye, and curly fiddleback. It is silent on this topic for the other maple species.

 

Whether from Michigan, or not, my guess is that Sugar Maple is the primary wood used by Heritage -especially for guitars with translucent finishes.

[Thundersteel]

I think there are numerous factors that affect the sound quality of an instrument.

 

Whatever type of maple is used, it sure is pretty!

 

 

[mark555]

It's my guess that what ever maple Gibson put on their 59's back in the day, it would be what people want now because it was what they used then.

 

Aren't strat necks made from Canadian rock maple?

 

Over here in the UK I have seen luthiers use English Sycamore for figured tops, it's a very close relative to maple. My daughter thinks that the sole purpose of Maple is to provide syrup for her pancakes.....

[yoslate]

At one of the last two PSP's, I can't remember which, someone asked Ren where they sourced their maple. He grinned, sort of chuckled, and, with a big grin, said something like, "I can't tell you that...."

[Steiner]

I asked Mr. Lamb where they get wood he said: "When you make guitars, they'll find you."

 

I walked through the woods today and didn't see any red oaks. I'll check my other sources and see what's available.

[Genericmusic]

I thought the Maple came from Brent's yard.

[High Flying Bird]

The wood and the guitars come from Canada. Eh?

[Guest HRB853370]

I just happened to have my "Nat'l Audubon Society Field Guide to N. American Trees" handy. It says the Black Maple, aka "Rock", or "Hard" maple is closely related to Sugar maple and has a similar range, though more common throughout Iowa. The range in Michigan seems confined to Southern counties. The Red Maple is also called 'Scarlet", or "Swamp" Maple and is most widely destributed from Maine to Florida and east to Texas and Minnesota.

 

The Sugar Maple, like the Black Maple is also variously called "Rock" or "Hard" maple and is found further North, covering all of Michigan's lower and upper peninsulas as well as many of the northern seaboard states not populated by the Black Maple. The guide specifically mentions this species as being a leading furniture wood, It mentios the special grain patterns, such as birdseye, and curly fiddleback. It is silent on this topic for the other maple species.

 

Whether from Michigan, or not, my guess is that Sugar Maple is the primary wood used by Heritage -especially for guitars with translucent finishes.

 

Sugar Maple-that would explain why Heritage guitars are so SWEET!

[Guest HRB853370]

It's my guess that what ever maple Gibson put on their 59's back in the day, it would be what people want now because it was what they used then.

 

Aren't strat necks made from Canadian rock maple?

 

Over here in the UK I have seen luthiers use English Sycamore for figured tops, it's a very close relative to maple. My daughter thinks that the sole purpose of Maple is to provide syrup for her pancakes.....

 

Let us not forget that hard rock maple is the most popular choice of wood for manufacturing drum shells. Birch would be second, followed by mahogany (cheaper drums), and poplar.

[DetroitBlues]

I asked Mr. Lamb where they get wood he said: "When you make guitars, they'll find you."

 

I walked through the woods today and didn't see any red oaks. I'll check my other sources and see what's available.

 

Hot and humid day to walk through the woods. You must of lost about 10lbs doing that!

[the jayce]

Bad case of over thinkin it im afraid. The musicians came up with those sounds. Amp settings, tone settings, ect ect ect ect.... But most importantly the hands of the musician, jimmy page ect. Why do you think jimmy can make a telecaster sound as sweet as his les paul??? Dont believe me check out some of his work before zepplin on the tele he plays.. sounds just like everything else he ever did because he was the musician.

 

Millions of dollars of exotic woods in a guitar isnt gonna make you sound good, only you can do that,, I say that with all due respect to every guitar player out there. The obsessive quest for a perfect guitar isnt going to do it. When you turn heads on a cheap acoustic with your playing, any electric guitar will do regardless of what wood its made of, or what country its made in. You control what it sounds like in the end.

[111518]

My understanding is that the classic-era Gibsons were made with hard eastern maple (also called rock or sugar maple). Supplies of figured eastern maple began to dry up by the late 60s and 70s, so Gibson and other makers began to shift to Western or big leaf maple, which is marginally softer, but tends to be more highly figured. Bigleaf maple grows faster and shows growth rings --lines perpendicular to the flame lines-- much more distinctly than the flamed eastern maple on older guitars.

 

So, I think the issue is that people want beautiful flamed and figured tops, BUT the maple that is available today that gives that "look" tends much more often to be Western big leaf maple than eastern hard maple.

There is also a debate about which wood has better tone, and some people argue that Big leaf maple is not only more easily worked but also sounds better (Anderson, Larrivee, etc.) ... but if the issue is "authenticity," then I think the trade off has become appearance v. species/tonal characteristics. People mythologize that all classic-era maple guitars were highly flamed (they weren't), and that's how they want their "reissues," even if it means the reissue is built out of a different wood. Go figure...

[Trouble]

Bad case of over thinkin it im afraid. The musicians came up with those sounds. Amp settings, tone settings, ect ect ect ect.... But most importantly the hands of the musician, jimmy page ect. Why do you think jimmy can make a telecaster sound as sweet as his les paul??? Dont believe me check out some of his work before zepplin on the tele he plays.. sounds just like everything else he ever did because he was the musician.

 

Millions of dollars of exotic woods in a guitar isnt gonna make you sound good, only you can do that,, I say that with all due respect to every guitar player out there. The obsessive quest for a perfect guitar isnt going to do it. When you turn heads on a cheap acoustic with your playing, any electric guitar will do regardless of what wood its made of, or what country its made in. You control what it sounds like in the end.

 

 

You have a very valid point and I agree with you. I think in the end it's the person playing the instrument and maybe more importantly the ears of the person playing, or maybe it's perception and not ears, that dictate the final sound.

 

 

I have owned a lot of very good and some very cool guitars over the years, mostly strats because of the versatility and they were easy on the shoulder and readily availble in my area. I have also had Ibanez, ESP, Shecter, Gibson, Carvin, Peavey, Yamaha and others all very good guitars.

 

I never really had a guitar that had the vibe or mojo that made me always want to play it more than every other guitar in the stable until I bought my 150. I bought it used, with the purpose of being a backup to my SG that had become my main instrument. I got a really good price on it and that was the main reason I bought it but the way the guitar played, sounded, and instantly bonded with me moved it to the front of the pack on day one.

 

My quest now is to have other guitars that have the same vibe and inspire me like this one. I don't think that it has to be made from the wood from a certain tree, on a particular acre of land, or that it has to have specific capacitors or pots to achieve this. I think that craftsmanship, quality of components, and now that I have found what I want in a neck shape it should have the same basic neck specs as my current 150.

 

I think if all these things come together I could have multiple guitars that inspire my to play the way my 150 does now, and that for me has nothing to do with what other people are playing or what other people sound like. In the end the sound will be mine, determined by my ears and perception, my amp and settings, whatever effects I choose, and the mood I'm in while I play, and quite possibly how much I've had to drink.

[the jayce]

You have a very valid point and I agree with you. I think in the end it's the person playing the instrument and maybe more importantly the ears of the person playing, or maybe it's perception and not ears, that dictate the final sound.

 

 

I have owned a lot of very good and some very cool guitars over the years, mostly strats because of the versatility and they were easy on the shoulder and readily availble in my area. I have also had Ibanez, ESP, Shecter, Gibson, Carvin, Peavey, Yamaha and others all very good guitars.

 

I never really had a guitar that had the vibe or mojo that made me always want to play it more than every other guitar in the stable until I bought my 150. I bought it used, with the purpose of being a backup to my SG that had become my main instrument. I got a really good price on it and that was the main reason I bought it but the way the guitar played, sounded, and instantly bonded with me moved it to the front of the pack on day one.

 

My quest now is to have other guitars that have the same vibe and inspire me like this one. I don't think that it has to be made from the wood from a certain tree, on a particular acre of land, or that it has to have specific capacitors or pots to achieve this. I think that craftsmanship, quality of components, and now that I have found what I want in a neck shape it should have the same basic neck specs as my current 150.

 

I think if all these things come together I could have multiple guitars that inspire my to play the way my 150 does now, and that for me has nothing to do with what other people are playing or what other people sound like. In the end the sound will be mine, determined by my ears and perception, my amp and settings, whatever effects I choose, and the mood I'm in while I play, and quite possibly how much I've had to drink.

Great point! I can agree 100% It realy does come down to the individual in the end and what thier looking for.

[bolero]

yup, those first 2 led zeppelin albums were done with a tele & a fuzz pedal

 

I like those tones better than any of their later stuff

 

but he still managed to get the job done with a les paul

 

 

back to the wood question, it is an interesting bit of trivia....but I agree it's the player & what they do with the instrument that makes the magic

 

we really are spoiled these days....back then they didn't have the option of researching all this stuff, they just used what was available.

 

and what was available was used to make all that great music. if jimmy page had played a plastic supro budget gtr on those albums, that is what people would be obsessing over

 

imagine that? trying to determine what blend of plastics had been used on the bodies...probably impossible to recreate because of environmental concerns

[MartyGrass]

Randy California (guitarist from Spirit) used a Sears Silvertone guitar for much of his early work. It was beautiful stuff.

 

He died saving the life of a child. That greatly cut short his career.

[pcovers]

.....we really are spoiled these days....back then they didn't have the option of researching all this stuff, they just used what was available.

 

Spoiled is one way to characterize it. Cursed might be another.

[Steiner]

This thread has haunted me since last summer. I often walk through the woods checking. This spring I have been on the hunt for red flowering trees. With the warm temps here, the maples have begun flowering. It's still too early for most of the other tall trees so it makes the job easy. To date I have spotted 4 good sized trees that appear to be the elusive Acer rubrum. I feel like a pirate that found the X

[Trouble]

This thread has haunted me since last summer. I often walk through the woods checking. This spring I have been on the hunt for red flowering trees. With the warm temps here, the maples have begun flowering. It's still too early for most of the other tall trees so it makes the job easy. To date I have spotted 4 good sized trees that appear to be the elusive Acer rubrum. I feel like a pirate that found the X

I have dogwood trees blooming in my backyard, is that a tonewood?

[Steiner]

If you're playing to the gals that howl