Super Eagle String Tension

[setemupjoe]

I recently bought a 2006 Super Eagle to replace my previous guitar, a Gibson Super V, as my day to day workhorse jazz box. One of the things that interested me in the Super Eagle is that the neck was identical to my Super V as both guitars use the Super 400 style neck and inlays. One thing I've noticed is that the string tension on the Super Eagle is markedly less than on my Super V. I use Thomastik George Benson flat wound strings .014-.055 so I'm used to a fairly firm tension with the strings not bending too much but on the Super Eagle they feel much lighter. If I didn't know better I'd swear they were .011's or .012's.

 

Now this is only my perception but I've played many archtops over the years and this guitar definitely feels lighter than any I've played before. Has anyone else had a similar experience or am I just going loopy with this? I find when I want to dig in to the strings like chomping away Freddie Green style or pushing hard on the strings when I'm playing faster lines that the light tension really bothers me. My tech guy suggested changing out the tailpiece for a finger tailpiece which is what I have on my Gibson Super V. That way we can adjust the string tension. Any feedback on this is appreciated.

[barrymclark]

I believe, and I could be wrong, that hollows are shipped with 12's normally.

 

At least I think I heard that when I was talking with Graham.

[brentrocks]

Welcome to the HOC!

[setemupjoe]

Hi Barry, I've had the guitar set up and put my usual .014-.055 strings on it so it's not a matter of lighter strings.

[H555rocks]

I believe, and I could be wrong, that hollows are shipped with 12's normally.

 

At least I think I heard that when I was talking with Graham.

This is kinda off topic, but Graham is a BEAST!

[Genericmusic]

I believe your luthier (guitar tech.) is correct. I have a finger tail piece on my classic eagle. I also use Thomastik flat wound strings but a lighter gauge. The finger tail piece does allow me to firm up the string tension with little sacrifice in tonal quality and less inadvertent string bending.

[barrymclark]

Hi Barry, I've had the guitar set up and put my usual .014-.055 strings on it so it's not a matter of lighter strings.

ah. Ok. I misread. I thought you were wanting to know what was on your guitar originally. My bad.

 

Either way, beauty of a guitar. Welcome to the HOC!

[setemupjoe]

I figured that would be the case. I can buy the finger tailpiece online but it doesn't come with the input socket. I would have to move the socket to it's more traditional spot further around the body. Does anyone know if Heritage would sell me their finger tailpiece?

[setemupjoe]

Thanks Barry. It's a really nice guitar and I'm totally enjoying it. My Gibson has had 30 years of playing to age and mellow it's sound so this new guitar sounds very bright and brash right now. I'm looking forward to breaking it in and seeing how the sound develops.

[barrymclark]

Thanks Barry. It's a really nice guitar and I'm totally enjoying it. My Gibson has had 30 years of playing to age and mellow it's sound so this new guitar sounds very bright and brash right now. I'm looking forward to breaking it in and seeing how the sound develops.

I've had my 575 a year now and I still feel like I'm in the honeymoon stage.

 

You'll have to share pics of your Gibby! Sounds like a winner!

[setemupjoe]

This is my Super V. It's been through hell with me for the last 30 years. It was crushed in the trunk of a cab in Atlantic City, it was stolen from my girlfriend's apartment on the Lower East side in NYC, and it's been played on tour in about 20 countries and counting. Incredible guitar. It just needs to be put into semi-retirement before it runs out of steam.

[Steiner]

I believe this is the tailpiece that Heritage uses.

 

http://www.allparts.com/SearchResults.asp?search=finger+tailpiece&x=0&y=0

 

Welcome to the HOC!

[setemupjoe]

Thanks. WD Music sell it for almost half that price. Exactly the same item.

 

http://www.wdmusic.com/archtop_finger_tailpiece.html

 

The only problem is that this unit doesn't have a space to put a guitar jack so I'd have to move that somewhere else. Not the end of the world but I know Heritage has a piece that allows for the guitar socket.

[Genericmusic]

Give Heritage a call. They are pretty amicable.

[Steiner]

The only guitar I have with the fingered tailpiece has the jack on the treble side of the lower bout. The Golden eagle Heritage shows on their site has a fingered tailpiece and the jack on the lower bout.

You could send the tailpiece to Big Bob to be "augmented." He's the kind of guy that's handy with tools

 

Beautiful looking Super you got there! I have one of her smaller cousins with a 17" lower bout; blonde too! You chose well!

[MartyGrass]

I ponder the finger tailpiece value fairly often. I have several archtops with them. They are bulky and heavy. Their benefit is that they allow fine tuning.

 

I can't understand how having a longer or shorter string length makes any difference unless it's between the nut and bridge. The string tension is the same for the same scale length at the same note.

 

Think about it. If the length of string between the nut and the tuning key affected string tension, Fenders would have slacker 6th strings than 1st. They don't.

 

Guitars with pigtails would have the loosest strings of all.

 

Benedetto is certainly on the inner ring of the elite luthiers. He designed his ultimate Johnny Smith without a finger tailpiece.

 

String tension is determined primarily by scale length and tonal frequency when you take the same set of strings and move it from one guitar to the next.

 

I have the same set of FWs on my Super Eagle with a bale TP as on my Golden Eagle with a finger tailpiece. Same 25.5" scale, same string tension.

[MartyGrass]

Moving the jack to the side is a bigger job than you might think. It has to be internally braced.

 

I suggest forgetting the tailpiece change. I don't think it will make much difference, unless you hate the style.

 

I have a headless Steinberger with a combined bridge and TP. That gets rid of all excess string length. I use GHS 10.5-50s on it, a H150, and a Millenium with a bale TP. Same string tension on all guitars despite very different total string lengths.

[setemupjoe]

You may be right Marty, I suppose the only way to find out would be to go ahead and spend the bucks to do it, which I'm not sure I want to do. The interesting point for me is that no one seems to share my story regarding the string tension being lighter than usual so I'm guessing this is just my issue. I'm going to live with it for a while and see how I settle in with the new guitar.

[barrymclark]

You know, now that I think about it, the 12's on my 575 are more slinky feeling than I have experienced with other guitars with similar string sets on them.

[MartyGrass]

You know, now that I think about it, the 12's on my 575 are more slinky feeling than I have experienced with other guitars with similar string sets on them.

 

 

Heritage can't redefine physics. The H575 has a shorter scale than the Super Eagle, so the strings should feel a little looser.

 

The shape of the neck can alter mechanical advantage of the hand in fretting the strings. That may account for the change in the sense of work while fretting.

[barrymclark]

Heritage can't redefine physics. The H575 has a shorter scale than the Super Eagle, so the strings should feel a little looser.

 

The shape of the neck can alter mechanical advantage of the hand in fretting the strings. That may account for the change in the sense of work while fretting.

No? haha.

 

I can't honestly recall what the last guitar I played on was and I was honestly going off of memory. ...which I question. haha.

[DetroitBlues]

I recently bought a 2006 Super Eagle to replace my previous guitar, a Gibson Super V, as my day to day workhorse jazz box. One of the things that interested me in the Super Eagle is that the neck was identical to my Super V as both guitars use the Super 400 style neck and inlays. One thing I've noticed is that the string tension on the Super Eagle is markedly less than on my Super V. I use Thomastik George Benson flat wound strings .014-.055 so I'm used to a fairly firm tension with the strings not bending too much but on the Super Eagle they feel much lighter. If I didn't know better I'd swear they were .011's or .012's.

 

Now this is only my perception but I've played many archtops over the years and this guitar definitely feels lighter than any I've played before. Has anyone else had a similar experience or am I just going loopy with this? I find when I want to dig in to the strings like chomping away Freddie Green style or pushing hard on the strings when I'm playing faster lines that the light tension really bothers me. My tech guy suggested changing out the tailpiece for a finger tailpiece which is what I have on my Gibson Super V. That way we can adjust the string tension. Any feedback on this is appreciated.

 

I think what you are noticing is guitar being easier to play which is usually the case with a guitar with lower action. The scale could also be slighty shorter. But, I think its all about your perception than fact. Just my opinion.

[111518]

The issue is not simple tension --tension in a string is pretty much determined by the gauge, length, and the pitch to which it is tuned. However, the break angle at the nut and the bridge can influence the amount of force needed to change the pitch of the string. This is the reaction that "Setemupjoe" is noticing, and it does have a foundation in physics. I've read a couple of explanations --some focus on the simple fact of more friction, others on more complex explanations of how the angle of bend influences the response of the string to changes in force. (We know, for example, that ribs in sheet metal --introducing angles-- make it stiffer.)

 

The finger tailpiece is not a fine tuner. It is designed to allow individual adjustment of the break angle on each string and builds on longstanding technology: the classic Gibson archtops --the L-5 and Super 400-- had an adjustment on the tailpiece that moved it up or down to change the break angle. And, this is part of the ongoing discussion about whether or not to top-wrap stop tailpieces.

 

Now, whether you could drill a finger tailpiece out to fit around the endjack on a Heritage without compromising the attachment plate or losing too many screw holes is a different question.

 

Beautiful Super V, by the way. I once owned a Super 400, but it was way too big for me, so I dreamed about finding a Super V that would have the cool split blocks etc. on a smaller body ...but I never lucked into one.

[111518]

--just found this explanation ... old timers here will remember Pacer X:

 

While you are correct that the tension is not reduced to hit a given pitch, the difference in feel is real - and conforms with the laws of physics.

 

Here's how it works:

 

When you bend a string, you are increasing the tension in the string to raise the pitch.  A given amount of increased tension in the string is required to hit a given change in pitch.

 

The RATE of change difference the the amount of force you have to put into the string defines how "stiff" or "slinky" the guitar feels.  In other words, a guitar that requires less input force from you to get to the desired pitch feels "slinkier" than a guitar that requires more.

 

Were the system 100% efficent, then all guitars would feel the same.

 

Trouble is, it isnt'...

 

Here's where the physics starts...

 

When you bend a string, you apply more tension to it.  The net amount of added tension that gets to the OPERATING part of the string is what increases the pitch.

 

Strings, however, come over the bridge.

 

In a free body diagram (a little engineering sketch) the input force is broken into what are called "vectors" at the bridge.  One vector runs parallel with the string (the part that increases the pitch), the other points straight into the body (through the bridge - it gets wasted).  The breakover angle of the bridge determines how much of that force ends up on which vector.  The greater the vector driving the bridge into the body, the greater amount of force that has to be input into the string to reach the desired pitch, because the force on the vector driving the bridge into the body is wasted (fundamentally, it's an efficiency loss).

 

So, if you want a slinkier feel to your strings while bending (or even with fretting them), the way to get it is to shallow up the bridge breakover angle by raising the height of the tailpiece (or lowering the height of the bridge).  That makes the vector driving the bridge into the body smaller, and makes the system more efficient from the standpoint of the amount of added force you put into the string giving a larger amount of difference in pitch.

 

In top-wrapping, that's effectively what you are doing, and why the string feels slinkier.

 

Any resonance benefits are more problematic...  and would take a lot more math... but are probably due to the tailpiece making better contact with the body than it does when it is just slotted into the posts.

[MartyGrass]

Very interesting.

 

String bending is mostly irrelevant since he's using 14-58s. The break angle would effect tension proportional to the travel distance of the string (action). This should be trivial with such heavy strings.

 

You're right though about the finger tailpiece being designed for break angle tweaking. I don't bend strings on the guitars that have these TPs and the actions are all very low. Practically this leaves those fingers as fine tuners, at least in my guitars.

 

Thanks for the info, 111518. Good stuff.