Super Eagle String Tension

[setemupjoe]

I spoke with my tech guy today when I picked up my guitar from him after he changed out the pickups and I asked him to explain why my Gibson and my Heritage would feel different even though they both have 25.5" scale necks. His answer was pretty similar to what 111518 posted. He said every neck is pitched at a slight angle from the body. This changes the tension depending on how great that angle is. Also the degree of pitch of the headstock has to be considered. He said newer guitar's headstocks are often pitched at 9 degrees whereas the older style is for 17 degrees. And finally the angle of pitch of the strings from the bridge to the tailpiece. The greater the angle, the more tension is felt on the strings. As the Heritage "H" tailpiece is hinged it makes a straight line from the end of the body to the bridge whereas the finger tailpiece on my Gibson is screwed all the way down so it provides a little more of that downward vector that 111518 mentioned.

As it stands now, I'm very reticent to change out the tailpiece so I think I'm just going to keep playing it until I get used to it. The differences are really pretty small. It made for an interesting discussion thread though and I certainly learned something new about the mechanics of guitars. Thanks everyone.

[MartyGrass]

I'd love some real data on this. If someone has a pressure sensor device to detect the lbs necessary to fret a string, the finger tailpiece could be placed in different positions between measurements.

 

I'll bet the break angle contributes to friction at the nut and the bridge. With less friction, there is easier stretch of the extra string that's not between the nut and bridge.

 

Except with string bending, I can't imagine the break angle matters much with a low action. But we need data.

 

Does anyone have such a measuring device?

[MartyGrass]

I've been looking for reasonable information on the finger tailpiece controversy. It is no surprise that there are many conflicting opinions. Below are some of them.

 

It makes sense that loosening the break angle will allow the strings to slip through the saddle more easily plus allow stretching off the string between the saddle and the TP. This would be theoretically more noticeable with string bending then fretting since there is more string travel in bending. With just fretting of a low action guitar, I'm not convinced there would be a detectable difference. The string tension does not increase linearly with displacement, probably exponentially, so small displacements (fretting) wouldn't make much difference with the break angle changes.

 

Another concern is energy transfer to the sound board. This is increased with a steep break angle. So volume and overtones might be affected.

 

From a practical stand point, these are not important differences for more than 95% of electric players. The tailpieces are expensive and heavy.

 

I use mine for fine tuning, just like Ren Wall showed me. But now I'm going to try different break angles. What the heck? Maybe I'll be surprised!

 

 

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145343

 

 

Q) Hi there my name is John and I definitely have a question for you that I hope you can answer. I recently got some custom parts for my full bodied jazz guitar for Christmas. One of them was a custom tailpiece with my initial on it. I noticed right off the bat that the tailpiece was shorter than the previous one I had on there. After putting it on and of course changing the strings I noticed a significant change in tension and feel. The guitar became very stiff and lost a lot of sustain. Do you think this is do to the new tailpiece or just the change of strings which are the exact same ones I had last time just new? I realize that this is kind of a stupid question but I want to make sure I'm right before putting the old tailpiece back on. Thanks, hope to hear from you.

A) Hmmmmm.....In theory...string tension is a function of scale length; which is the

distance between the nut and saddle. Having said that, many other factors affect string tension and/or "FEEL" on the archtop guitar. Neck angle and the break angle over the saddle/bridge have a MAJOR contribution to this equation. This is also a very important element to consider when building the guitar, as down force on the top will affect the voice. As the tailpiece approaches the bridge, the break angle increases and subsequently increases the down force on the top plate. The reverse is also true.

What is confusing to me is that you seem to be experiencing the opposite. Normally, as the tailpiece becomes shorter, it is farther from the bridge and the break angle (depending on the geometry of the carve/arch) decreases; decreasing down force. You say string tension has increased! And then there is the loss of sustain issue....this shouldn't be happening. All very confusing without seeing the guitar and tailpiece.

Most tailpieces have some sort of hinge. If your tailpiece is not hinged, it could have increased the break angle and subsequently down force.

Also...in general, as the total string length (not scale or speaking length) increases, the guitar will "feel" looser and have more sustain. In theory, because of the scale length and string gauge, the string tension is the same. My experience, both as a repair person and a player, has always been that long strings = loose feel. I had a couple of 50s Gretch(s). Between the low arch and long string length, you could string those beasts up with 13s and they felt like I was playing on 10s!! Jimi Hendrix started the whole "reverse headstock" thing, by playing a stock strat, left handed. The longer string length on the bass strings...made them feel looser and sustain

longer. Some modern players buy guitars with reverse headstocks for the same reason (or maybe it's just to look cool!).

I would have your local "guitarguy" check it out. The easy first step is always to swap out the parts, put the original tailpiece back on the guitar and see if the problem goes away. If it does...you have your answer. If not....it's not the tailpiece...but rather a set-up issue. Perhaps the t-rod somehow moved and there is now more relief in the neck. Or the bridge was accidentally moved/adjusted up and the action is higher...or both!

In general, I tell people that a great guitar is a well designed, cohesive instrument. Parts are usually very carefully thought out and designed to fit THAT GUITAR. Try putting the original part on the guitar and take it from there.

Best of luck. A year of peace, love and joy to all.

.............................................................

the varying down-pressure of the string onto the bridge results in more or less volume and more or less treble emphasis in the tone. i could not detect any difference in tension or feel on a Johnny Smith model i once owned which had an Oettinger "Fingers" tailpiece. i did use it to increase the volume and brightness of the bass strings and it was a noteable effect.

[DetroitBlues]

Sounds like this going to end up like trying to figure out how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop... The world may never know.... No need to beat ourselves in the head over it...

[big bob]

Heritage can't redefine physics. The H575 has a shorter scale than the Super Eagle, so the strings should feel a little looser.

 

The shape of the neck can alter mechanical advantage of the hand in fretting the strings. That may account for the change in the sense of work while fretting.

+1

[big bob]

As for the finger tailpiece it should have a shorter/smaller mounting footprint than the H tailpiece. You may be able to mount it above the jack. If this does not work it would be less expensive and less traumatic to your guitar to take the H-tailpiece and the finger tailpiece to your local machine shop and ask if they can swap out the mounting plates or fabricate you one that would work on the finger style one. Or just ship the guitar and all the parts to me in Florida and I will do it for you, and for free at that. My average turnaround time one I have the guitar and can start working is two years.

[Kuz]

I spoke with my tech guy today when I picked up my guitar from him after he changed out the pickups and I asked him to explain why my Gibson and my Heritage would feel different even though they both have 25.5" scale necks. His answer was pretty similar to what 111518 posted. He said every neck is pitched at a slight angle from the body. This changes the tension depending on how great that angle is. Also the degree of pitch of the headstock has to be considered. He said newer guitar's headstocks are often pitched at 9 degrees whereas the older style is for 17 degrees. And finally the angle of pitch of the strings from the bridge to the tailpiece. The greater the angle, the more tension is felt on the strings. As the Heritage "H" tailpiece is hinged it makes a straight line from the end of the body to the bridge whereas the finger tailpiece on my Gibson is screwed all the way down so it provides a little more of that downward vector that 111518 mentioned.

As it stands now, I'm very reticent to change out the tailpiece so I think I'm just going to keep playing it until I get used to it. The differences are really pretty small. It made for an interesting discussion thread though and I certainly learned something new about the mechanics of guitars. Thanks everyone.

 

That a boy, I wouldn't change a thing. Keep playing her and if you like the tone she gives, after two months she will feel like an old friend.

 

The only other thing I have to offer is that Thomastic Flats are known for having less lbs of tension than other brands of strings of the same gauge. I use Thomastic GB 12-53 and noticed a HUGE difference in less tension vs D'adario flats of the same gauge.

 

I can't remember if you had exactly the same set guage & brand for both guitars, but the Thomastics will definitely FEEL lighter.

[MartyGrass]

Robben Ford says you need to give a guitar six months before you decide if you like it.

 

I'm just sayin'....not necessarily doin'!

[Kuz]

Robben Ford says you need to give a guitar six months before you decide if you like it.

 

I'm just sayin'....not necessarily doin'!

 

Yea, and who stated that here first??!!!! LOL

[setemupjoe]

Ok, this post is mainly for Marty, but I thought it was worth mentioning on this topic. To settle this in my mind at least I took my old Gibson Super V with the finger tailpiece, played it for a bit to get the feel under my fingers, then I loosened the fingers as far as they would go so the strings were not pulled down toward the body at all. I then spent the day going between my Gibson and my Heritage to first, see if they felt more similar in string tension, and second, to see if the Gibson felt lighter and looser with the finger tailpiece slackened off.

I did notice a difference on the Gibson. The strings were definitely looser. (yes, I retuned the guitar to A440 after I slackened off the tailpiece.) It was much easier to bend strings. Comparing it to my heritage the Gibson still felt a little tighter but they were much closer in tension to each other.

This, at least for me, answers my question about whether the finger tailpiece would add more tension onto my Heritage if I changed over tailpieces. I think it definitely would but not greatly. However, the tailpieces are so dissimilar that it would present too many problems to actually do it. So, I've packed my Gibson away for the time being and I'm playing the Heritage on all my gigs until it feels comfortable to me.

[Spectrum13]

Makes sense to me and it justifies getting the finger tailpiece. Do any other tailpieces exist which present a greater angle (other than the 400 and L5) over the bridge for an archtops ?