Guest HRB853370 Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 What are the characteristics of the so-called tweed amp sound that is so sought after? What makes it unique and what tube configuration and wattage is typical of a tweed amp?
yoslate Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 Will, I'm no authority, but having recently come into a really good tweed clone, here's my take on the 5E3 tweed Deluxe: 5Y3 rectifier, 2 6V6's, a 12AY7 and a 12AX7, and a 12" speaker at 15 (mine's 20+/-) watts is just an uncomplicated, useful package. What I hear are warmth and character ( a little breakup, "hair," or grit, which doesn't overwhelm or misrepresent anything produced by the guitar, just augments it) in both single coils and humbuckers, which are components of the inherent voice of Rock & Roll and blues. There's a harmonic character reminiscent of a sax, which was an important voice in the...ethos...of early Rock & Roll and its cousin jazz, and by association, blues. There's an aspect of the voices in all three musical genres which commands, often demands, attention, especially in soloing. The more the tweed circuit is wound up, the more adamant and emphatic that voice. And I think an adamant voice is what R&R, jazz, and blues, especially early on, were all about. The tweeds just do that; those circuits developed, as did the electric guitar, with the music of which that instrument is such an important part. I'm sure kbp, MavGuy, (miss slider!) and the other really knowledgeable amp guru's on the forum will chime in much more substantively than I have. I'm just a fan and a user. I thought this was a cool question.
Guest HRB853370 Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 Will, I'm no authority, but having recently come into a really good tweed clone, here's my take on the 5E3 tweed Deluxe: 5Y3 rectifier, 2 6V6's, a 12AY7 and a 12AX7, and a 12" speaker at 15 (mine's 20+/-) watts is just an uncomplicated, useful package. What I hear are warmth and character ( a little breakup, "hair," or grit, which doesn't overwhelm or misrepresent anything produced by the guitar, just augments it) in both single coils and humbuckers, which are components of the inherent voice of Rock & Roll and blues. There's a harmonic character reminiscent of a sax, which was an important voice in the...ethos...of early Rock & Roll and its cousin jazz, and by association, blues. There's an aspect of the voices in all three musical genres which commands, often demands, attention, especially in soloing. The more the tweed circuit is wound up, the more adamant and emphatic that voice. And I think an adamant voice is what R&R, jazz, and blues, especially early on, were all about. The tweeds just do that; those circuits developed, as did the electric guitar, with the music of which that instrument is such an important part. I'm sure kbp, MavGuy, (miss slider!) and the other really knowledgeable amp guru's on the forum will chime in much more substantively than I have. I'm just a fan and a user. I thought this was a cool question. And thank you for your useful insights Rob! Enjoy the new Epson, er, I meant to say Empson!
yoslate Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 ...Epson, er, I meant to say Empson! When I read that in the other post, I thought it was really funny, Will! I think Kenny did, too....
zguitar71 Posted September 2, 2011 Posted September 2, 2011 watch this and you will possible have a better understanding.
DetroitBlues Posted September 3, 2011 Posted September 3, 2011 The old tweed amps are just super clean, easy to repair, easy to modify, and help people relive those old tunes they grew up listening to.
JeffB Posted September 3, 2011 Posted September 3, 2011 When I asked the same question some one put this link up(Kuz I think) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_J4pADDMZs and some one else mentioned Neil Young.
zguitar71 Posted September 3, 2011 Posted September 3, 2011 The tweed amp vary by year and size. The most sought after years tend to be the mid to later 50's and very early 60's. The smaller amps used 6v6's and the larger ones used 6l6's and 5881, there are probably some other tubes used too but those are the main ones with 12ax and at7's too.To me they have a fuller more open sound and loose. When cranked tweeds are heavenly, a deluxe will get really nasty when turned all the way up. the bigger tweeds like the twin do not get as nasty but still break up nicely. The James Gang guitar intro is a great example.
Guest HRB853370 Posted September 3, 2011 Posted September 3, 2011 When I read that in the other post, I thought it was really funny, Will! I think Kenny did, too.... Kinda stupid funny maybe, but take out the M and you have a once famous computer company!! I was into them in the 70's and even belonged to an Epson Users Group out of Ann Arbor Michigan. As I got older, I quit being a computer geek. Guitars are more fun.
DetroitBlues Posted September 3, 2011 Posted September 3, 2011 When I asked the same question some one put this link up(Kuz I think) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_J4pADDMZs and some one else mentioned Neil Young. Those old tweed amps need to be turned way up in order to get that breakup. Its a little hard to crank those amps whenever you feel like it...
zguitar71 Posted September 3, 2011 Posted September 3, 2011 Those old tweed amps need to be turned way up in order to get that breakup. Its a little hard to crank those amps whenever you feel like it... Yea they can be loud when cranked, the 14 watt deluxe is not so bad but cranking a twin or bassman could get you escorted out of a small club.
DetroitBlues Posted September 3, 2011 Posted September 3, 2011 I think my 22 watt amp is more then loud enough for any band, but it is based on the blackface era.
tulk1 Posted September 3, 2011 Posted September 3, 2011 And thank you for your useful insights Rob! Enjoy the new Epson, er, I meant to say Empson!
JeffB Posted September 3, 2011 Posted September 3, 2011 Those old tweed amps need to be turned way up in order to get that breakup. Its a little hard to crank those amps whenever you feel like it... I think my 22 watt amp is more then loud enough for any band, but it is based on the blackface era. I sometimes, not often, go to a local jam and play blooz and classic shlock with appropriate facial expressions. The 1st thing I always notice is the line of wee amps set up to go. The 1st time I went I took my Mesa LS and 212 cab and was either mocked or warned with earnest expression and tone not to be too loud. The simple fact was even with 100w and 212's as opposed to 12-18 w/112 I was quieter and more controlled than the tone hound hand wired guitar to amp purists. The last time I went I took a Bad Cat Classic Cat and some stomps. I hated the sound and volume but the visual and smaller foot print of it seemed to relax the other guys. Im in, part of the cool club. The point Im not making very well is I can get the cranked tweed amp sound very easily and in comparison, very quietly with a 100w amp like a Mesa LS or maybe even a Fender 60w super sonic. Sure its not entirely power amp break up but with low watt speakers it has a degree of authenticity that even a 18w amp on 3-4 can not attain without the aid of a stomp. Ive had the drummer and bass player who are involved with a new band we are getting going over today to work out songs etc. Running through the songs I also switched through different amp and cab combinations looking for a sound that suited the overall sound of us all. Theyre all set up so not a real time waste. They became as interested in the process as I was and made comments on their preference's for cab and head. We all settled on the Fender 60w SuperSonic, V30 212 cab and a strat.(damn. wanted the H150 to win) Their involvement and my openness to their suggestions on the way the guitar should sound in the band seemed to be quite a unifying experience. It seemed to put every one at ease and it felt like we became more of a team. Once we settled on the sounds we played an absolutely grooving and satisfying "strange brew". Yah, real blooz. They work with another guy who is a small amp die hard and they commented how much quieter I played but how much fuller my sound is. I just wish I had the other guys ability. They were suprised that no amp I used was less than a 60w and that one that we also liked was 120w. It ran counter to what their small watt amp enthusiast guitar player had rambled on at them about the day of large watt amps being numbered. I know we are all on our own little sonic journey and hear different things we want to incorporate in to our sound but I just cant do small watt amps. Ive tried enough times to know the next time I will take a 212 and 60-100 watt head. The last gig I did was with a 120w 212 combo in a smallish room and it sounded great and once again I was asked to turn up a few times. just my experience and I can spin on a dime if I see something shiny out the corner of my eye.
DetroitBlues Posted September 3, 2011 Posted September 3, 2011 212 cab Out of all that, one point remains clear to me, its not about the amp wattage, its about the speaker cab. You are pushing through a 2x12. Even a 4x12 will give any amp a much fuller sound. I'd be the first to admit that! KBP810 RD amp is completely different when pushed through a 4x12 with a lower volume then pushing it's internal 1x12". And since I don't have a master volume like your amps do, I have to use a power stack pedal to get the overdriven preamp tone at a lower volume.
H Posted September 3, 2011 Posted September 3, 2011 Those old tweed amps need to be turned way up in order to get that breakup. Its a little hard to crank those amps whenever you feel like it... Not necessarily, put a boost pedal in front and you can get there at lower volumes. Works with my 5E3-based Limey amp and that stays clean way longer than a Tweed Deluxe.
blackjack Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 The point was made that Tweeds carried an over-abundance of mid and bass, and due to that, would break up at lower volumes. But I'll add a missing piece to the discussion; the phase inverter circuit here is an earlier evolution than in blackface and beyond. It's not balanced as well, and none of em are balanced perfectly, nor is perfect balance needed. Back to the point, the harmonic content of the breakup is a bit different due to that circuit. I think this circuit causes some to describe it as a wider-grained breakup. Just my two-cents. You can swap tube types, or alnico speakers, and get some components of the tweed sound all day long. But with the phase inverter, it's a much more permanent part of the amp. It's not practical to make that part of the circuit switchable in order to go in/out of tweed mode. Too many dependencies between that, and the remainder of the power section. Much more practical to switch over to a Tweed amp to do Tweed-style sounds. (btw, I love this forum. Lot's of good discussion.)
Kuz Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 Those old tweed amps need to be turned way up in order to get that breakup. Its a little hard to crank those amps whenever you feel like it... Well. yes and no. I love the sound of a "cleanish" tweed and they break up early with little headroom when playing with humbuckers. If you want the full dime'd Neil Young tone, then they can be loud. But for bluesy break-up and fat cleans they aren't crazy loud. Not necessarily, put a boost pedal in front and you can get there at lower volumes. Works with my 5E3-based Limey amp and that stays clean way longer than a Tweed Deluxe. +1
yoslate Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 But for bluesy break-up and fat cleans they aren't crazy loud. I can get Stonesy rhythm, Hendrix chording, all the Tele bite in a solo I'd ever need in the band, with just a bit of the first "channel" on a Full-Tone Fulldrive ( volume and overdrive knobs at ten-o'clock) and the 5E3's volume on 4 (out of 12) and not threaten to clear the room. Get out of the Full-Tone, and it cleans right up. I liked Jeff's observations about using 60, 100, and 120 watt amps judiciously to achieve great tone, too. I've really kind of had it with what I hear most of the time, that saturated, ear bleed, wood chipper thing. Wouldn't presume to tell someone else what to like, but that's just not me. Must be getting old....
Blunote Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 I'll admit i'm not as knowledgeable as many others here on the board, but from what I've read, Fender made many amps that came to be called tweed amps by virtue of being covered in tweed versus tolex or some other material. It seems than that the "tweed" sound, generally refers to a number of tones. Having said the Bassman seems to be the one amp everybody can agree is a tweed amp. By that reasoning, blackfaced and later Fender amps or 5e3 builds wouldn't be.
kbp810 Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 I'll admit i'm not as knowledgeable as many others here on the board, but from what I've read, Fender made many amps that came to be called tweed amps by virtue of being covered in tweed versus tolex or some other material. It seems than that the "tweed" sound, generally refers to a number of tones. Having said the Bassman seems to be the one amp everybody can agree is a tweed amp. By that reasoning, blackfaced and later Fender amps or 5e3 builds wouldn't be. Well, you are right to an extent... in regards to the stereotypical design of the amp for the given era is synonymous with it's generalized label; "Tweeds" being covered in tweed, Blackface having a black faceplate, etc... The "Tweeds" generally refer to the small chassis builds that are typically mounted vertically. Simple circuits with short signal paths is something that is shared throughout those considered to be a Tweed style amp. Here's a good example... first is the 5E3 layout, often referred to a the Tweed or Narrow Panel Deluxe (which is my all time favorite amp, by the way); followed by the AB763 Blackface Deluxe layout.
koula901 Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 Those old tweed amps need to be turned way up in order to get that breakup. Its a little hard to crank those amps whenever you feel like it... You could get a supersonic, and still get that bassman sound, and probably get the breakup at lower volumes.
kbp810 Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 Then also to throw the 5E5 "Tweed" Pro out there to compare to the 5E3... you can see how similar the circuit is - with the exception of 6L6 tubes and a respective extra filter cap in the power section.
kbp810 Posted September 4, 2011 Posted September 4, 2011 Those old tweed amps need to be turned way up in order to get that breakup. Its a little hard to crank those amps whenever you feel like it... But the breakup is totally worth it! I love taking a low power tweed amp and putting it through a super efficient speaker like an EV12ML... cranking it up and hear the amp itself growl out loud proudly
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