Tweed amps

[DetroitBlues]

But the breakup is totally worth it! I love taking a low power tweed amp and putting it through a super efficient speaker like an EV12ML... cranking it up and hear the amp itself growl out loud proudly

 

But you can get away with it in your house, not mine...

[JeffB]

 

212 cab

 

Out of all that, one point remains clear to me, its not about the amp wattage, its about the speaker cab. You are pushing through a 2x12. Even a 4x12 will give any amp a much fuller sound. I'd be the first to admit that! KBP810 RD amp is completely different when pushed through a 4x12 with a lower volume then pushing it's internal 1x12".

 

And since I don't have a master volume like your amps do, I have to use a power stack pedal to get the overdriven preamp tone at a lower volume.

Im kinda going off topic here as this is about tweed amps not about my personal preference for larger watt amps but I just wanted to clarify.

To me an amp is an amplifier is an amplifier and a cab with a speaker in it is a cab is a cab with a speaker in it. I dont call, or think of a combo as an amplifier, its and amp installed in a speaker cab. I dont use combo's to gig with. I did once, now I use an amp with a separate cab.

The reason Im trying to define this is because when I talk about using lower watt amplifiers I am talking about running the amplifier through a separate cab which is usually a 212. I like 212 cabs more than 112 and 412 cabs.

So when I say I dont generally like smaller watt amps, its because Ive tried them through the same 212 cab's as I would any amp Ive bought home to demo or tested at work whether they are a 5w blackstar,egnater tweaker, Marshall class 5 or any 50-100w marshall, mesa, egnater, badcat, etc

I have a few 112 combo's but even at home the internal speaker is generally disconnected and the amp is run through a separate 212 cab. The only combo's I dont do this on are 212 combo's. I like 212 configurations and any testing I do whether at gig's, jam's, rehearsals or at home is done as a separate cab and amplifier.

I dont generally like low watt amps even through a separate 212 cab. Ive liked the sound of some at lower levels but just wish that the sound would stay like that at the level where the stick hits the snare and not break up and compress so much. I want the bottom end to stay intact and the highs and mids not to bleed together so much. Smaller watt amps seem to me to project a narrower beam of frequencies when turned up and have a feel I dont really like. I like the definition of most higher watt amps. It reminds me more of an acoustic guitars response and I like the way the guitar and amp feel together. Probably a rod for my back as smaller watt amps compression is more forgiving to play through.

 

We are reading the same book just on different pages.

[Blunote]

Well, you are right to an extent... in regards to the stereotypical design of the amp for the given era is synonymous with it's generalized label; "Tweeds" being covered in tweed, Blackface having a black faceplate, etc...

 

The "Tweeds" generally refer to the small chassis builds that are typically mounted vertically. Simple circuits with short signal paths is something that is shared throughout those considered to be a Tweed style amp.

 

Here's a good example... first is the 5E3 layout, often referred to a the Tweed or Narrow Panel Deluxe (which is my all time favorite amp, by the way); followed by the AB763 Blackface Deluxe layout.

 

I can see that there'a a lot of similarity btw. the 5e3 and 5e3 pro on you later post but at quick glance the 5E3 and blackface circuits look about as similar as oranges and orangutans.

 

Was the bassman a 5E3 circuit? I didn't think it was. So if not, can the Fender Deluxe or blackface amps be called "tweed" by virtue of tone?

 

And wasn't the bassman circuit the one Marshall copied for their 18w amps (such as the Bluesbreaker)?

 

If so, would qualify those Marshalls as "tweed" amps?

 

Please don't take my questions wrong. I'm not trying to argue -just searching for a definition of what a "tweed" amp is.

[212Mavguy]

@Tully...

 

We have a lot in common as far as liking to keep the cab separate from the amp powering it, especially the low wattage designs. I'm pretty darn sure that as a result of trying three different output trannys in my Frank-en-champ that the sound you dislike is strongly correlated to the iron...wimpy iron leads to a narrower bandwidth on the tone. My little monster uses a 30 watt rated single ended output tranny that is bigger and heavier than the oversized replacement power tranny...this mutant OT weighs 5-7 pounds and had to be mounted onthe bottom of that combo cab. When I run it through a 16 ohm 2/12 with JBL's or a 16 ohm 1/15 with an Altec 418b, it is full, fat, punchy, and VERY ballsy. Gig volume is only 9-12:00 on the volume knob. Very, very loud to say the least! The tone controls are disconnected, huge preamp gain is the result. Cheap wimpy iron = cheap wimpy tone in any amp.

[DetroitBlues]

Im kinda going off topic here as this is about tweed amps not about my personal preference for larger watt amps but I just wanted to clarify.

To me an amp is an amplifier is an amplifier and a cab with a speaker in it is a cab is a cab with a speaker in it. I dont call, or think of a combo as an amplifier, its and amp installed in a speaker cab. I dont use combo's to gig with. I did once, now I use an amp with a separate cab.

The reason Im trying to define this is because when I talk about using lower watt amplifiers I am talking about running the amplifier through a separate cab which is usually a 212. I like 212 cabs more than 112 and 412 cabs.

So when I say I dont generally like smaller watt amps, its because Ive tried them through the same 212 cab's as I would any amp Ive bought home to demo or tested at work whether they are a 5w blackstar,egnater tweaker, Marshall class 5 or any 50-100w marshall, mesa, egnater, badcat, etc

I have a few 112 combo's but even at home the internal speaker is generally disconnected and the amp is run through a separate 212 cab. The only combo's I dont do this on are 212 combo's. I like 212 configurations and any testing I do whether at gig's, jam's, rehearsals or at home is done as a separate cab and amplifier.

I dont generally like low watt amps even through a separate 212 cab. Ive liked the sound of some at lower levels but just wish that the sound would stay like that at the level where the stick hits the snare and not break up and compress so much. I want the bottom end to stay intact and the highs and mids not to bleed together so much. Smaller watt amps seem to me to project a narrower beam of frequencies when turned up and have a feel I dont really like. I like the definition of most higher watt amps. It reminds me more of an acoustic guitars response and I like the way the guitar and amp feel together. Probably a rod for my back as smaller watt amps compression is more forgiving to play through.

 

We are reading the same book just on different pages.

 

That again brings up an issue with volume. Its damn near impossible to keep things down in my house. I really need to figure out how to control the volume of my amps while still letting the tubes breath. Now I had a Valveking 50 Watt combo. If I had a 2x12 to go with it, I'm sure it would of sounded even better. But a lower volumes, the tone was still amazing. When turned up, its compression really shone through and made my single coil strat sound rich and thick. Really loved that amp.

[zguitar71]

I can see that there'a a lot of similarity btw. the 5e3 and 5e3 pro on you later post but at quick glance the 5E3 and blackface circuits look about as similar as oranges and orangutans.

 

Was the bassman a 5E3 circuit? I didn't think it was. So if not, can the Fender Deluxe or blackface amps be called "tweed" by virtue of tone?

 

And wasn't the bassman circuit the one Marshall copied for their 18w amps (such as the Bluesbreaker)?

 

If so, would qualify those Marshalls as "tweed" amps?

 

Please don't take my questions wrong. I'm not trying to argue -just searching for a definition of what a "tweed" amp is.

 

The bassman is a 5f6 circuit and is a tweed amp. The entire line up of Fender amps from the 50's to the very early 60's are tweed amps and though there circuits are different the overall layout is very similar. The main differences are the tube types, speaker size and configuration and wattage. The common thing about tweed amps is there beefy mid range and their tendency to over drive at lower volumes. The way the cabinets are constructed has a role in the tone too. All that changed with the introduction of the black face amps which have there own wonderful tone. In the end the Black Face fender is not a tweed and Tweed and BF's are not British even though the early Marshal was a copy they all have there own unique character and represent an era of amplifier design. Does that help?

[gary0313]

I can see that there'a a lot of similarity btw. the 5e3 and 5e3 pro on you later post but at quick glance the 5E3 and blackface circuits look about as similar as oranges and orangutans.

 

Was the bassman a 5E3 circuit? I didn't think it was. So if not, can the Fender Deluxe or blackface amps be called "tweed" by virtue of tone?

 

And wasn't the bassman circuit the one Marshall copied for their 18w amps (such as the Bluesbreaker)?

 

If so, would qualify those Marshalls as "tweed" amps?

 

Please don't take my questions wrong. I'm not trying to argue -just searching for a definition of what a "tweed" amp is.

The Marshall amp that was based on the Fender 5F6A Bassman was the 45 watt JTM-45 of the early to mid '60's.

There is no substitute for what you perceive with your ears, but a book that I've been reading and re-readind for the past 15 years that has helped me to better understand the differences between Fender amps of different eras is FENDER AMPS The First Fifty Years by John Teagle & John Sprung. They do a good job of explaining how each model changed through the years and how those changes affected the look and performance of the amp.

[DetroitBlues]

Sweet, so KBP can change my RD amp into a JTM-45'ish amp?

[H]

Sweet, so KBP can change my RD amp into a JTM-45'ish amp?

Yes, he just has to change it into an 5F6A Bassman first. Pass him the axe.

[DetroitBlues]

actually just heard a modified RD amp he's waiting for a cabinet for. Oh man, does it ever sound good!

[koula901]

Not necessarily, put a boost pedal in front and you can get there at lower volumes. Works with my 5E3-based Limey amp and that stays clean way longer than a Tweed Deluxe.

 

Is that because more signal is going to the pre-amp?

[DetroitBlues]

I've played KBP810 go to amp, his 5E3, and that thing gets really, really loud before it even thinks about breaking up.

[H]

Is that because more signal is going to the pre-amp?

Yes, around 35db extra on tap with the pedal at maximum.

[lavern23]

I wanted to wait til I got my Eagle today to reply to this topic. I have a 1964 super reverb and a tweed bassman LTD. I tried the Eagle through both and the bassman sounds better to my ears through it. It is very versatile. Accepts pedals well and much more affordable. Just my 2 pennies.