H-150 2 piece bodies versus 1 piece bodies

[barrymclark]

 

I have a 2 piece body 150 special. It is a bit thinner than a regular 150, (1 5/8 vs 1/7/8). Unplugged, it plays louder than any 150 I own. The Bird testified the same about his 2 pc 150 special. I think none of this has been scientifically proved, that a 1 piece is more resonant than a 2 piece.

Not to be contrary, but it is. Glue absorbs vibration. In fact, it is used for the express purpose in some applications like small motors or something. It isn't to say that a 1 piece is better than a 2. Not at all. That like every other myth in guitar players' heads... is all in their heads. You either like it... or your don't. If you like it... who cares how much glue it has or doesn't have?

 

The harder the glue, the less it absorbs vibration.

 

Edit: Found this article. Very close to this discussion. http://www.mcknightguitars.com/glue-hardness.html

 

The proper glue used in the right fits will reduce vibration loss at the joint to a minimum. Hardly an official experiment but clearly enough to form hypoethesis that any glue usage will reduce vibration throughout the body by some measurable amount.

[pcovers]

A good guitar is a good guitar. Dont think 1,2 or three piece bodies are going to change much of that. Too many good guitar floating around made up of multiple pieces.

 

Bingo. Almost ever one of the guitar minutia religious beliefs of guitar building has been debunked over and over with examples of guitars that sound just as good, bright, mellow, sustain as long, etc but are constructed at odds with the given "belief". In this case, if one piece made a predictable difference, there would be no debating it. If one piece sounded better, then most one piece LPs would sound better than muti-piece to most people. There is no generally accepted, universal agreement on this because they don't. I think buying one piece because you just like one piece makes sense. Buying it because of the lore, romance, and the belief that it produces superior tone is not so sound a reason.

 

While I'm at it (uh oh, I'm on a roll), as long as there are guitars made from non Honduran mahogany that sound as great as the ones made from Honduran (and there are tons) the same goes for that. I know that some would be willing to become a martyr for the cause before agreeing to the blasphemy that old Honduran does not always sound better than new (fill in some other central American country). But, the evidence of stunningly great sounding guitars made from other mahogany and mahogany-like wood it just too overwhelming to cling to the Honduran doctrine; In a blind test most could not distinguish Honduran tone from scrap palette wood tone. Wow, how did I get so far off the track

 

As to cost, I am in discussion with a builder on a mahogany solid body guitar and he said if I want a single piece, it is a $50 upcharge. I am with others that say Heritage uses what it has in inventory.

[barrymclark]

 

Bingo. Almost ever one of the guitar minutia religious beliefs of guitar building has been debunked over and over with examples of guitars that sound just as good, bright, mellow, sustain as long, etc but are constructed at odds with the given "belief". In this case, if one piece made a predictable difference, there would be no debating it. If one piece sounded better, then most one piece LPs would sound better than muti-piece to most people. There is no generally accepted, universal agreement on this because they don't. I think buying one piece because you just like one piece makes sense. Buying it because of the lore, romance, and the belief that it produces superior tone is not so sound a reason.

 

While I'm at it (uh oh, I'm on a roll), as long as there are guitars made from non Honduran mahogany that sound as great as the ones made from Honduran (and there are tons) the same goes for that. I know that some would be willing to become a martyr for the cause before agreeing to the blasphemy that old Honduran does not always sound better than new (fill in some other central American country). But, the evidence of stunningly great sounding guitars made from other mahogany and mahogany-like wood it just too overwhelming to cling to the Honduran doctrine; In a blind test most could not distinguish Honduran tone from scrap palette wood tone. Wow, how did I get so far off the track

 

As to cost, I am in discussion with a builder on a mahogany solid body guitar and he said if I want a single piece, it is a $50 upcharge. I am with others that say Heritage uses what it has in inventory.

Absolutely!

 

Honestly, unless you are buying a guitar to merely discuss that it is a one piece whatever, then don't ask what the hell it is made of. Just pick it up and play. Does it make a good sound to your ears? No... then it doesn't really matter if it was made of Godmium would it? You move on until you find that guitar that just sings for you. Would it matter that is was made of roof shingles and glued in 100 places using an obscure glue called Satan's Feces? It doesn't really matter. Listen with your ears and not a spec sheet and you will always be happy.

 

Those old Danelectro guitars? BAKELITE! I mean... really. And they sounded great. BAKELITE!

 

Pick up a pine guitar one day. PINE! One of the finest sounding guitars I have played using one of the cheapest damn woods you can get.

[pcovers]

A two piece body will not resonate the same as if it had been made a one piece.

 

A maple cap sorta takes away the point of having a single piece mahogany back, though.

 

Any glued joint absorbs vibration.

 

These could all be true and yet have no predicable relationship to guitar tone. I know what some "believe" about what they think resonance means, but there is no empirical evidence as to any of it on "better". I suppose these ambiguities are what keep the interest levels so high over such a long period of time.

[barrymclark]

 

These could all be true and yet have no predicable relationship to guitar tone. I know what some "believe" about what they think resonance means, but there is no empirical evidence as to any of it on "better". I suppose these ambiguities are what keep the interest levels so high over such a long period of time.

Absolutely on both!!

 

Actually, on all... but those two just ring. They vibrate more. heh-heh.

[Guest HRB853370]

These are all good discussions!! Like Barry said, who cares as along as it sounds and plays good. In theory, I can see why everybody would want a solid back, but it's not always an option, given inventory supplies, etc. as previously discussed.

[MartyGrass]

I don't know whether glue in a seam in one part of the electric guitar has any meaningful effect on the amplified tone, but if it does, it is not nearly as important as differences in strings, picks, and attack.

[barrymclark]

I don't know whether glue in a seam in one part of the electric guitar has any meaningful effect on the amplified tone, but if it does, it is not nearly as important as differences in strings, picks, and attack.

...and yet even those are arguable as there is no way to quantify what is good nor is there a metric. For some the Fender Medium pick is be all end all and I can't stand them. I love the 3.0 Dunlop Gator Grips and others hate them. Some use those rubber picks which I think sound great for some aspects of my playing but not in others. Same with strings.

 

Attack though... that is where you are getting into the player where the material in his hands having nothing to do with it. Again, though, you can say 'this' guitarist sounds amazing... and the next guy with a no less valid opinion will flinch at every note.

 

Some have more mass appeal than others, but that has to do more with the moment and the connection than it being measurably good.

 

That's my take on it anways.

[Kuz]

Well, for the sake of discussion, when's the last time you read a sales add promoting a wonderful short tenon? That's not supposed to make a difference.

 

Sure, one-pieces are more desirable if for no other reason than you could argue the seam MIGHT make some difference, and that it might actually be ever-so-noticeable. Which is true. Not to mention rarity or the fact you can say it's a one-piece. Yet, in reality in a blind taste test I would wager virtually nobody (maybe literally nobody) could reliably tell a difference a/o prefer guitars that were one-piece bodies. Otherwise, wouldn't you hear a difference due to the glue holding the neck, fretboard, frets, body, Maple cap, and headstock veneer? Sure, if I'm ordering one I'm probably asking for a one-piece. Basically as the one-in-a-million "what if" (even though logically, I know I will never, ever notice a difference, period, to me it's like throwing salt over my shoulder or some superstition), and resale should I ever need to sell it (even though I believe it really makes no real difference, most of the time and maybe all of the time, I can still throw it out as a sales pitch, and some do care to some extent).

 

Actually all Heritage solid bodies now are built with a long tenon.

 

My above reply also needs to mention that ALL my Heritages' have a short tenon and sound HUGE!!

 

I am not in the debate of 1 piece vs 2 over tone. My preference is 1 piece body because it is not just made from two pieces that were laying around.

 

 

THE REAL QUESTION IS: SINCE THERE IS NO REAL UP-CHARGE TO ORDERING A ONE-PIECE BODY FROM HERITAGE (minus the $75 custom order charge), WHY WOULDN'T YOU ORDER A ONE PIECE BODY????

[TalismanRich]

 

Those old Danelectro guitars? BAKELITE! I mean... really. And they sounded great. BAKELITE!

 

Maybe to some people, but I started on a Silvertone Dano in the 5th grade. Bakelite and masonite... and I couldn't wait to get rid of it. I've played an old Dano, and the reissues and while they might be some people's cup of tea, they aren't for me!

 

As the fine print always says "Your mileage may vary".

[Guest HRB853370]

 

Actually all Heritage solid bodies now are built with a long tenon.

 

My above reply also needs to mention that ALL my Heritages' have a short tenon and sound HUGE!!

 

I am not in the debate of 1 piece vs 2 over tone. My preference is 1 piece body because it is not just made from two pieces that were laying around.

 

 

THE REAL QUESTION IS: SINCE THERE IS NO REAL UP-CHARGE TO ORDERING A ONE-PIECE BODY FROM HERITAGE (minus the $75 custom order charge), WHY WOULDN'T YOU ORDER A ONE PIECE BODY????

 

Simple answer. They may not have that one piece slab of wood available so they use what they have, as discussed in this thread. And who cares about tenons! Tenons, shmenons!!

[Halowords]

 

Actually all Heritage solid bodies now are built with a long tenon.

 

Sure. However, why are they now all built with a long tenon? From all I've read, it was more or less the will of the people, not because it made them sound any better. They could have done that years ago, and didn't. The reason given (on this board, I believe) is that the tenon was "long enough."

 

My above reply also needs to mention that ALL my Heritages' have a short tenon and sound HUGE!!

 

Sure. Mine probably does too. Beats me, I wouldn't know any different either way. However, doesn't that follow the same logic? If I had a long-tenon single-piece-body Heritage for sale, I'd probably put that in the description. It doesn't mean it makes them sound better, just something I can list that might make it special to somebody somewhere. Still, nobody is boasting about multi-piece bodies or short tenons when in reality it might make no discernible difference.

 

I am not in the debate of 1 piece vs 2 over tone. My preference is 1 piece body because it is not just made from two pieces that were laying around.

 

THE REAL QUESTION IS: SINCE THERE IS NO REAL UP-CHARGE TO ORDERING A ONE-PIECE BODY FROM HERITAGE (minus the $75 custom order charge), WHY WOULDN'T YOU ORDER A ONE PIECE BODY????

I agree with all of that but just for the "why not" file. It's sort of a "just in case," should that extra glue make some strange difference. That said, if I got a multi-piece, I wouldn't really care. Kirn makes some highly-touted Barnbusters out of as many as four-piece bodies, I believe. I have heard no complaints based on the tone of said 4-pc. guitars. Still, you could argue that glue in some ways HELPS the sound of guitars. You hear that bandied around with the neck-thru vs. set/bolt-necks. There is a lot said of people preferring the latter rather than the former. At least in theory, and very summarized, the joint helps change the frequencies of the notes making them more interesting. Set-necks arguably being more boring since the notes are going up-and-down one long piece of wood (or pieces, if it's a laminate, in addition to the fretboard and wings).

 

I just do not think most in a blind test could tell the difference, and if they could, between a one- or two-piece body it would be subtle at best.

[barrymclark]

Maybe to some people, but I started on a Silvertone Dano in the 5th grade. Bakelite and masonite... and I couldn't wait to get rid of it. I've played an old Dano, and the reissues and while they might be some people's cup of tea, they aren't for me!

 

As the fine print always says "Your mileage may vary".

That was sort of my point.

 

...in an explicable sort of way.

 

What I was getting at was that it really doesn't matter what the guitar is made of. You could make it out of a frozen elephant turd... and SOMEBODY is gonna love it.

[Kuz]

 

Sure. However, why are they now all built with a long tenon? From all I've read, it was more or less the will of the people, not because it made them sound any better. They could have done that years ago, and didn't. The reason given (on this board, I believe) is that the tenon was "long enough."

 

 

 

Sure. Mine probably does too. Beats me, I wouldn't know any different either way. However, doesn't that follow the same logic? If I had a long-tenon single-piece-body Heritage for sale, I'd probably put that in the description. It doesn't mean it makes them sound better, just something I can list that might make it special to somebody somewhere. Still, nobody is boasting about multi-piece bodies or short tenons when in reality it might make no discernible difference.

 

 

I agree with all of that but just for the "why not" file. It's sort of a "just in case," should that extra glue make some strange difference. That said, if I got a multi-piece, I wouldn't really care. Kirn makes some highly-touted Barnbusters out of as many as four-piece bodies, I believe. I have heard no complaints based on the tone of said 4-pc. guitars. Still, you could argue that glue in some ways HELPS the sound of guitars. You hear that bandied around with the neck-thru vs. set/bolt-necks. There is a lot said of people preferring the latter rather than the former. At least in theory, and very summarized, the joint helps change the frequencies of the notes making them more interesting. Set-necks arguably being more boring since the notes are going up-and-down one long piece of wood (or pieces, if it's a laminate, in addition to the fretboard and wings).

 

I just do not think most in a blind test could tell the difference, and if they could, between a one- or two-piece body it would be subtle at best.

 

I am very consistent with my 1 piece body preference, even from Kirn. I ordered my Salomon Kirn with a 1 piece body and if you check the posts when a couple of Kirn barn busters were for sale I said I wasn't interested in the one that was a four piece slab. I think a 4 piece slab is just not attractive or worth the money. There was a 1 piece body barn buster for sale that was hard to pass on!

 

Again, if Terry MInturff said I can only build you a 2 piece master piece, that it is impossible to get a 1 piece body, I would trust his judgement.

 

But I will not pay the SAME price for a 2 piece body when a 1 piece is essentially the same price. Again, just my opinion.

[Guest HRB853370]

That was sort of my point.

 

...in an explicable sort of way.

 

What I was getting at was that it really doesn't matter what the guitar is made of. You could make it out of a frozen elephant turd... and SOMEBODY is gonna love it.

 

Not once it melts. Yuck!

[bolero]

starbucks sells something akin to that

 

I think a 2 piece is better, because you're combining the tone qualities of 2 different pieces of wood

 

actually, does anyone bookmatch bodies? same piece of wood, cut and flipped face to face? like they do with soundboards

[hinesarchtop]

[Flat]

I like the idea of a one-piece body, all resonating as a natural unit.

 

But I would rather have two pieces of A+ grade mahogany well-glued together than a single piece of A- mahogany, if that's what it comes down to. It might be easier these days to find two A+ as smaller pieces. I don't really know.

 

I've also read that if you split a piece of wood in two, and flip one piece so the grain runs in the opposite direction, that you buck hum and cancel phase or something. I can't remember if it was good or bad though.

[bolero]

some do that for structural stability...I know G&L used to cut & reglue their necks like that, but was it just a theory?

 

Hines, that is clearly an inferior body....look at all those squiggly lines!!

 

 

one thing for sure, the patterns & flame of woodgrain sure are mesmerizing

[hinesarchtop]

It's in the fireplace helping to warm my feet as we speak. I think I'll build a 4 piece body so we can do a blindfold test.Remember now, I do prefer one piece bodies, but know that it would be almost impossible for anyone to tell which was which. Don't forget that Robert Benedetto built a great sounding archtop from inferior grade knotty Pine. Not saying that wood doesn't make a difference ......it doe's, but he carved /tuned it and had good results.

[FredZepp]

 

 

But I would rather have two pieces of A+ grade mahogany well-glued together than a single piece of A- mahogany, if that's what it comes down to. It might be easier these days to find two A+ as smaller pieces. I don't really know.

 

I've pondered this thought also. My 157 with a 2 piece back sounds so good that the statement may perhaps have some truth to it.... that 2 pieces of great wood are better than one of good wood.

 

But really my one piece back guitars sound great , so maybe there are just too many other issues deciding the final tone anyhow.

 

 

 

 

BTW... yes, that is a nice looking piece of wood for the back of that Les Paul... very nice.