Why keep reinventing the wheel?

[hinesarchtop]

Many guitar builders have tried to reinvent the wheel, but in some form will always end up being somewhat derivative. The ergonomics of a Tele, Strat, and L Paul are the standard for a reason...........they work! Unless you go to the ultra odd shapes it's going to be based on one of the original designs.

 

I like what Heritage does.......and love their connection to the old days. They could have done a better job of copying the snakehead headstock, and the Super Eagles pickguard looks like bird poo. Actually, I've grown accustom to most of the design things that initially I had issue with.

[the jayce]

There are at least two parts to design and we often tend to focus on one part, ignoring the other. We look at the package you would hold in your hands and forget what it takes to get to that package.

 

Heritage is very good at the implementation side of the current designs, but from where did the artwork come? It took an artist based in reality, not just an artist. When the artwork was created, the final product was executed with the tools of the day. The result is mainly square cuts and limited curves.

 

To get to more sweeping designs with complex shapes and surfaces, more material has to be consumed as waste in a resource limited world. This says nothing of the tooling and artistic creativity necessary to get away from the squareness of the past and move to the curvatures of the future. First you needs artists that can think in terms of transition, making incremental changes in the use of the present tooling to move toward slick complex curves. CNC can get you there, but the waste is still there and dedicated graphic designers are not necessarily interested in cost of the implemented design. It's the art that drives them and flows in their soul.

 

So I challenge you to come up with a design of complex curvature that can be implemented with minimal waste using an incremental set of new tooling. Think in terms of the art, think in terms of materials, think in terms of the required functionality, and draw a design that can be implemented. What is needed and what is on hand? Suggest a creative input to solve the puzzle we agree exists.

Excellent answer marshall. I takes some thought and tools and creativity to get past that hurdle. But if gibson did it in the 50's and 60's and came up with those models that are still popular today it can still be done nowadays. I would be more than happy to get my hands dirty and help do the leg work with heritage if they would let me. Your right when you say the first step is getting a milling machine or subcontract it done for now to get started. Materials shouldnt take anymore than a slab of wood the size thier useing now, to come up with the new body styles and they can work on the dressing up from that point.

 

There has to be a starting point with the ideas as with anything. And a little investment can go along ways. But there has to be some leadership over at heritage motivating the whole crew to get beyond just the norm. I would be asking every employee to draw up some ideas and tell them that the company is moving forward together and i want each and everyones ideas incorperated in that goal. The moral around the company would change drastically and the new challenges and innovations would re-energize the company as a whole and thier customers. sitting back day by day and just doing what is working at the time is not gonna create any change or improve the companys future what so ever.

 

I understand the main fellas down there are set in there ways and arn't intrested in change and they have earned that right. But the others should be motivating them with ideas and concepts and keep that creational spark alive. They should always make what they are now but reach to snag the attention of others by thier new product lines if they ever decide to do so. If it where me down there i tell my guys that where unveiling 5 new models at this years namm show, totally new and unique to heritage, and the whole team is going to have a part in thier designs. So lets get started. none of this dragging are feet . Where going to blow are competitions a#s'es out the door. The only thing lacking at heritage i would say is motivation of anykind. Thats where the leaders should be stepping in.

 

[the jayce]

Why would they make anything else? What they make is what they have always made, and they do it "perfectly". Why change now?

Not saying to stop making what they are because thier guitars are awsome. Just saying offer new unique only to heritage/ not based off any other competitors designs. Alot of us guitarists like new innovation as well as the traditional stuff.

 

Who here remembers "The Can Opener...? I rest my case.

At least they tried somthing. It amazes me how many folks have no drive for anything out of the norm. That mentality isnt gonna hold water in todays world of competitors.

 

I buy Heritages because I like them. If they came up with a new offering that I really liked, I might buy it because I thought it was cool, or smart, or because of the tones, or workmanship...but not because it was the "next new thing".

 

I don't follow fads.

You will never know if you would buy one because there not offered.

 

They are musical instruments, and their design is based, at least in part, on an understanding of laws of physics and ergonomics which can be traced back centuries. We live in an age wherein innovation is held at a premium, for a variety of reasons, one of which is not necessarily that it improves a time-tested design. Innovation frequently serves only itself. I don't want to play an Edsel or a Pacer or a Princess phone....

Yeah but to put it bluntly people get tired of the same ol'e same ol'e and lose intrest after awhile. Especially the younger generations. Hate to see heritage fade off to the history books because of this simple human tendancy, wouldnt you guys? It's time they offer new styles to choose from.

[111518]

I guess I should stay out of this, but I just don't understand the metaphor. It seems to me that Heritage should be praised for consistently not wasting their most valuable asset trying to reinvent the wheel. The "wheel," after all, is a group of consistently successful designs derived from the long evolution of guitar making. It seems that, for all the market-driven efforts at innovation, electric guitar design has, for fifty years, come down to three designs: a mahogany bodied/set-necked solid guitar, a maple-necked bolt neck guitar, and various semi-hollow bodied guitars. (full hollow guitars are amplified acoustic archtops --not designed to be electric guitars). The entire ethos of Heritage, since day one, and its greatest asset beyond the craftsmanship of its workers has been its human and geographic connection to the tradition that created two of those three designs, as well as the fact they offer great value as one of the only surviving American shop producers of archtops. Sure, they made some super strats, but those designs came and went without making a ripple in the surging sea of super strat makers. When they've gotten bandsaw happy in recent years ... well, how many of those models are still in production? I'm happy that Heritage seems committed to not making the mistake that American auto companies made and that almost cost them their existence --in the end, it's not the sheet metal that matters.

 

As long as they continue to produce guitars in the K'zoo tradition, at competitive prices and with more attention to craftsmanship than the corporate entity that owns the original brand name, they have a place in American guitar making. Once they leave that "heritage" behind, they are one of many small shop guitar makers, and, I'd venture to guess, less equipped technologically and in terms of market/computer research/responsiveness to survive than many of their competitors.

 

My 2 cents of course, and I'm particularly happy to say that I'm almost certain the guys on Parson street could care less what I think about their designs or their business model.

[the jayce]

I guess I should stay out of this, but I just don't understand the metaphor. It seems to me that Heritage should be praised for consistently not wasting their most valuable asset trying to reinvent the wheel. The "wheel," after all, is a group of consistently successful designs derived from the long evolution of guitar making. It seems that, for all the market-driven efforts at innovation, electric guitar design has, for fifty years, come down to three designs: a mahogany bodied/set-necked solid guitar, a maple-necked bolt neck guitar, and various semi-hollow bodied guitars. (full hollow guitars are amplified acoustic archtops --not designed to be electric guitars). The entire ethos of Heritage, since day one, and its greatest asset beyond the craftsmanship of its workers has been its human and geographic connection to the tradition that created two of those three designs, as well as the fact they offer great value as one of the only surviving American shop producers of archtops. Sure, they made some super strats, but those designs came and went without making a ripple in the surging sea of super strat makers. When they've gotten bandsaw happy in recent years ... well, how many of those models are still in production? I'm happy that Heritage seems committed to not making the mistake that American auto companies made and that almost cost them their existence --in the end, it's not the sheet metal that matters.

 

As long as they continue to produce guitars in the K'zoo tradition, at competitive prices and with more attention to craftsmanship than the corporate entity that owns the original brand name, they have a place in American guitar making. Once they leave that "heritage" behind, they are one of many small shop guitar makers, and, I'd venture to guess, less equipped technologically and in terms of market/computer research/responsiveness to survive than many of their competitors.

 

My 2 cents of course, and I'm particularly happy to say that I'm almost certain the guys on Parson street could care less what I think about their designs or their business model.

On the contrary, when a company stops listening to thier customers they will lose them. If you buy thier product your 2 cents should mean alot.

[DetroitBlues]

I visited Heritage back in 2008 for the first time. Took the tour and got to meet with Marv. I shared with him how much I liked the 170 design (original by Heritage). He proceeded to share with me he had been working on a prototype of the 2nd Generation 170 and took me though the tour and showed me the prototypes. I asked him if anyone had dibs on first one. He called Vince and next thing you know it was mine. He called me along the way of its build and it was ready a little early as they wanted to get it into production. They have a good mix of original designs, and those based on Gibson classics. I kinda like that. I have a les paul and a 335 but I also have a 150 and soon a 555. I'm not sure what the numbers look like, but I think its nice to get an original as well as something based on a classic design.

 

Would that be the 170 KBP now owns?

[barrymclark]

I guess what I don't get in this... although I am guilty of this too... why would any of us want them to be anything different than what they are? Sorta like asking your friend or spouse to be something they aren't. Kinda makes you re-evaluate your part in the relationship.

 

As far as the kiddies not liking these.... you know what... you're right. The kiddies might not like it. But... then they grow up. Look at me. When I was a kid (to be read as anything approaching my mid-20s), the oldest design style I would be caught dead with was a dinky strat style. Now... the opposite is true. Wouldn't be caught dead with a guitar styled like a punk rock hairdo.

 

Fact of the matter is, Heritage doesn't turn out tired Gibson styles. What they do make is modern representations of proven timeless designs from an era they helped make iconic!

 

The way to look at a Gibson ES175 is to maybe see it as a classic 57 Chevy. The new models are just like the old ones but made in a more modern way.

 

The way to look at a Heritage is to see it as a 57 Chevy custom build. It is done by building the body the old way but internals are all modern hot rod.

 

Heritage, I love you for what you do.

 

Jet City amps has this nice tag line about how if you are looking for a jazz amp, buy from somebody else. That is sort of how I see this argument. If you don't like it, buy from somebody else.

 

I remember when I first got into Heritage, I too wanted them to make a million models. I just couldn't get enough. Then I calmed down. They make what they make. I have made peace with the fact that if I want an SG, it will say Gibson on the headstock.

[Guest HRB853370]

On the contrary, when a company stops listening to thier customers they will lose them. If you buy thier product your 2 cents should mean alot.

 

So what exactly are you saying that the market is demanding of Heritage that they are not fulfilling? It does not make much sense to launch new product designs, with the "hope" that the market will catch on and demand will suddenly emerge. I have to agree with 111518, in that the basic designs of electric guitar making have been pioneered and well entrenched for the past 50 years and the market is now saturated with manufacturers producing these basic designs. Where Heritage has a niche in the marketplace is in their fine archtop guitars made right here in the USA by American workers.

[hinesarchtop]

To the Jayce..........So are you basically saying you would like to see different headstock and body shapes? They would still be based off of the ergonomics of the standard designs, and therefore still derivative. Try to lay out and design a completely new instrument and see what happens. I'll bet you start referring to one of the old standard designs before long...........they work for a reason. I'm not saying that you couldn't dress them up different and put a curlicue here and there. It's harder than people realize, but who am I to talk? I bought the LAV guitar from Brent haha.

[barrymclark]

On the contrary, when a company stops listening to thier customers they will lose them. If you buy thier product your 2 cents should mean alot.

Well... that assumes that there is only one way to conduct your business as it relates to customers.

 

If their primary pursuit IS making money and customer service with what they want being secondary, then you are right.

 

If their primary pursuit is making instruments they want to make and, if they make money at it, awesome.... well, then your view isn't so. The fact that they are so flexible in what you can do to customize your order says they do care but there are limits.

 

What I recommend you do is go to... Ibanez and get a custom build. When you hit that dead end, go talk to Gibson/Fender and see how much that costs you. This really isn't just Heritage. In fact, Heritage is easily one of the most flexible there is especially in the price range. The problem is, they may not be flexing the way you want them to. At that point, Heritage is the wrong tree to be barking up. If they don't do it, they don't do it. Doesn't make them a bad company. Just means you've gone beyond the limits to which they are willing to extend.

 

This really isn't that big a deal.

 

If their model is bad.. they will go out of business. If not... well, they will enjoy the business they've been doing for almost 30 years now.

[Blunote]

Whether by accident or on purpose, Heritage IS listening to their customers and marketing to them. They don't need to go after the mass market and deal with chain stores like Guitar Denter or Sam Ash. They know there's a substantial enough niche market for hand crafted Kalamazoo guitars in the style and tradition of the Gibby Golden Era. What I'm saying is: their product isn't just guitars, its all the mojo that comes with being the living heritage of Kalamazoo. The market niche they appeal to doesn't necessarily want guitars that are significantly different than the traditional models.

 

I think (hope), they're savvy enough to realize that IT IS POSSIBLE TO "IMPROVE" YOURSELF RIGHT OUT OF BUSINESS.

 

To illustrate, let's say the founders turn the company over to a group of MBAs or industrialists who have no appreciation for the history, or appeal of their product. First thing they'd probably do is substitute less costly but functional parts to save a nickel here and there. Then they'd probably replace all that old machinery with new CNC machines, or just eliminate the labor intensive processes entirely. Parts can be made offshore more cheaply and merely assembled in Kalamazoo. Some other hotshot MBA would realize that many more models could be offered at much higher prices by making a few cosmetic changes to the instruments. Of course they'd need additional staff to come up with all these great ideas, CAD systems, manufacturing controls, computer rooms, etc...

 

Damn, to afford all this "progress" they now have sell a lot more guitars, so they start marketing through Best Buy, Walmart, and Guitar Center.

 

After all this, how many of us would still be loyal customers?

 

The scenario above may sound crazy but it's sort of how GM ruined SAAB.

[JeffB]

All I want are tele, strat, LP and 335 type sounds and feels. Consistently they only seem to come from tele, strat, LP and 335 type designs.

PRS consistently have a PRS sound about them no matter the body shape or structural design. I find that interesting.

[the jayce]

To the Jayce..........So are you basically saying you would like to see different headstock and body shapes? They would still be based off of the ergonomics of the standard designs, and therefore still derivative. Try to lay out and design a completely new instrument and see what happens. I'll bet you start referring to one of the old standard designs before long...........they work for a reason. I'm not saying that you couldn't dress them up different and put a curlicue here and there. It's harder than people realize, but who am I to talk? I bought the LAV guitar from Brent haha.

Not entirely, thier head stock is thier biggest identifier going. I love it's design. simple but sleek and bold. Thier body styles could use some new choices. Im not saying to go 80's on us and design crazy thunderbolts that glitter and have cheesy quotes airbrushed on them. Im thinking new sophisticated designs with subtle yet pronounced dimensions/curves ect. Pickup comfigurations unique to thier guitar designs. alternative bridge layouts, custom bridges, some string through body styles, routered feature inhancements. And anything else(in good taste) to bring about thier own unique styles----> so when a player looks at it from the audience they can say hey! thats a heritage just at a glance vrs what is that a les paul or 335. Prs done a wonderfull job at the angles im thinking of, so has carvin. I want them to keep building the beautifull guitars they are today but offer some stuff unique only to thier brand. They dont have to make 200 of each design and hope they sell,,, start with 5 of each as a special release and if they all sell within a brief time(which they would) then make some more as the market demands. A test drive so to speak. Now whats the harm in trying that with about 6 models. I guess i dont see the problem in that, and it makes complete business and customer sense.

 

I know most of us are 40 years plus old and are like are fathers where in being set in thier ways and most wouldnt change thier outlook on anything anymore,,,( just like are dads) People just dont like change whatsoever the older they get, but that being said cant anyone remember back when they where late teens through 32 when somthing new and unseen before was what you where after. Maybe not for the rest of you but I do.... Theres alot bigger market in the 17-32 year old range than us 40+'ers when it comes to guitarists. why not tap that market aswell and have fun doing it.

[barrymclark]

I can definitely remember my teens... and I am glad I am not there anymore. haha.

 

Well, I guess Heritage is not interested in tapping into that market on purpose. That's flooded enough. Furthermore, they'd have to compete with a flood of companies turning out guitars that teenagers and early 20-somethings can afford. I'd say Heritage would be out of their element here. Maybe they don't see that market as fun? This really has nothing to do with not wanting change.In fact, some of the biggest changes you can go through happen at that mid-life transition. It is where you stop going where the wind blows you and really cement your path in life. Heritage is really for those people that know full well where they are going.

 

One thing to keep in mind as that a number of us were in our teens and twenties in the 80s where the metal guitars and their looks were all the rage... and Heritage did try to get into that at the time. So... our tastes did indeed change to what Heritage offers and weren't stuck in the mud. We just simply matured in our tastes and a respect for antiquity has settled in. Heritage is just that: respect for antiquity.

[Hfan]

Lots of eloquent, well thought out responses here, I'll add mine anyway.

 

Instead of wishing for what Heritage might become, I am thankful for what they are. They currently offer too many options for me to explore without hitting the lottery.

 

Also lets not forget what the word "heritage" means.

[Kuz]

Again, I will default to the acoustic guitar. About 3 designs (Dreadnought, OM, and a Cutaway model). There are hundreds of luthiers/companies making acoustics and no one is screaming for new designs. They have proven the test of time.

 

AND as far as Heritage not listening to the public is rediculus!! They changed to Locking Pro hardware, CTS pots, AND long tenons.... all due to feedback from customers/dealers input.

 

AGAIN, I think you need to look through the old catalogs from Heritage, they must have nearly 15-20 NEW designs that are no longer being made. To do design investigations in a company this small would be a HUGE waste of time & money (IMHO).

 

They have a saying at Heritage that I have heard repeatedly from Ren & Marv..... "We like to think we know what we do best".

[barrymclark]

I think this type of thread should be included in the rules for new posters. haha. Until you make a thread about headstocks and the models they don't make, you aren't allowed ot post about anything else. Just get it out of your system. haha.

[the jayce]

 

I think this type of thread should be included in the rules for new posters. haha. Until you make a thread about headstocks and the models they don't make, you aren't allowed ot post about anything else. Just get it out of your system. haha.

Oh I dont know, it's kinda nice to discuss somthing besides what pickups someone should use or which is better rosewood or ebony or ( hold on to your hats here!) does the weight of the guitar increase tone and sustain........ I like to discuss things with a little more subject matter from time to time than just the basics. But heck if everyone feels the need to hash over the same endles topics I'll be happy to join in. and with that i will let this thread rest in peace.

[DeLorean]

As Detroit said they have developed NUMEROUS Heritage original designs in the past; ie here are just a few...140's, Prospects, Millie's, Little One, 127's, ASAT's

The ASAT is a Leo Fender guitar from his last company (G&L). That is sort of the inverse of Heritage, the real thing (Leo and George) sold the original company (and Leo's last name) and moved on.

[yoslate]

Oh I dont know, it's kinda nice to discuss somthing besides what pickups someone should use or which is better rosewood or ebony or ( hold on to your hats here!) does the weight of the guitar increase tone and sustain........

 

Indeed it is! And we actually seem to be able to do this civilly, here. Nice!

[pushover]

The ASAT is a Leo Fender guitar from his last company (G&L). That is sort of the inverse of Heritage, the real thing (Leo and George) sold the original company (and Leo's last name) and moved on.

 

A heritage ASAT is probably just a STAT for people with dyslexia like me

 

But its again Heritage's take on an existing design.. BTW. What is the Heritage Tele like model? I think there is one?

 

I do think it's good that Heritage has it's own models. I think the milli is awesome and a Prospect is much more comfortable to hold than a 535 while maintaining similar tonal qualities. I think Heritage has all of the tonal bases covered, and if you're into archtops, I'm not sure why would you buy from someone else?

[tsp17]

Lots of eloquent, well thought out responses here, I'll add mine anyway.

 

Instead of wishing for what Heritage might become, I am thankful for what they are. They currently offer too many options for me to explore without hitting the lottery.

 

Also lets not forget what the word "heritage" means.

+1

[Gitfiddler]

I'm so glad that Heritage decided to break out, take a chance, and follow Wolfe's recommendation and produce the H525.

Sure, it is a much improved, upgraded version of the old ES225, but man, what a special guitar it is.

 

You see, sometimes the old guys do listen and make changes. They came up with something unique that no other builder is making.

[Guest HRB853370]

I'm so glad that Heritage decided to break out, take a chance, and follow Wolfe's recommendation and produce the H525.

Sure, it is a much improved, upgraded version of the old ES225, but man, what a special guitar it is.

 

You see, sometimes the old guys do listen and make changes. They came up with something unique that no other builder is making.

 

I know right? I cant wait to buy yours one day Gitfiddler!!!

[Guest HRB853370]

Whether by accident or on purpose, Heritage IS listening to their customers and marketing to them. They don't need to go after the mass market and deal with chain stores like Guitar Denter or Sam Ash. They know there's a substantial enough niche market for hand crafted Kalamazoo guitars in the style and tradition of the Gibby Golden Era. What I'm saying is: their product isn't just guitars, its all the mojo that comes with being the living heritage of Kalamazoo. The market niche they appeal to doesn't necessarily want guitars that are significantly different than the traditional models.

 

I think (hope), they're savvy enough to realize that IT IS POSSIBLE TO "IMPROVE" YOURSELF RIGHT OUT OF BUSINESS.

 

To illustrate, let's say the founders turn the company over to a group of MBAs or industrialists who have no appreciation for the history, or appeal of their product. First thing they'd probably do is substitute less costly but functional parts to save a nickel here and there. Then they'd probably replace all that old machinery with new CNC machines, or just eliminate the labor intensive processes entirely. Parts can be made offshore more cheaply and merely assembled in Kalamazoo. Some other hotshot MBA would realize that many more models could be offered at much higher prices by making a few cosmetic changes to the instruments. Of course they'd need additional staff to come up with all these great ideas, CAD systems, manufacturing controls, computer rooms, etc...

 

Damn, to afford all this "progress" they now have sell a lot more guitars, so they start marketing through Best Buy, Walmart, and Guitar Center.

 

After all this, how many of us would still be loyal customers?

 

The scenario above may sound crazy but it's sort of how GM ruined SAAB.

 

Gee, that scenario sort of sounds like Norlin taking over Gibson in the late 60's!! Talk about ruining a company!