Paging Yoslate......

[Kuz]

Thanks, Brentrocks! I like to learn what I can about Heritage.  Here's another thing. In this pic ( photo credit Brent), check out the headstock just to the left of the top of that blue guitar case.  Great pictures, Mr. hadlunchwiththebigdogs!  ( A touch of insomnia, nothing more )

 

Believe it or not (actually quite believible when you think it Heritage) that is the "Old Prototype" room. Yes, thats right. Just throw them over in the corner??!!! I was amazed when Ren told/showed me that area!

 

Can you image what the value (still some value I suspect) those guitars would have if the prototypes were cared for?

 

But again the mind set of our boys is "Aw they just some old, no good, early guitars"!!??!! ;D

[Dick Seacup]

this one?

 

Katie Flamm does a final sanding and fixes tiny imperfections prior

to sending the guitars to the finishing department.

 

Man, I was going to guess, "Sandy!" 

[111518]

...since several expressed interest in trying to play this 4 chord Autumn Leaves, I thought I'd add the fingerings.  Ignore if uninterested.  So:

Chord name:        Am7            D9        G6            C6              F#m7-5        (NR) B9      Em7

Strings:              654321    654321    654321    654321    6 5  4  3  2  1  654321    654321

Frets:                5x555x    x5455x    3x243x    8x798x    x 9 10 9 10 x    x6767x    x7578x

Fingering:            2x333x    x2133x    2x143x    2x143x    x  1 3  2  4  x    x1324x    x2134x 

 

 

chord tones*:      Rx735x    xR379x    Rx635x    Rx635x        R b5 7 m3        3795      xR373x

*this is an analysis of which tone of the chord you are playing at each spot within the grip, or chord shape.  If the chord is a minor chord, the "3's" are minor, and in this progression all the "7ths" are dominant or minor.  The number relates to the scale degree of a related scale, so the "third" is the third note of a scale, the root the first note, etc.  Once you begin to learn which tones are where within a chord, you can easily modify one shape to create another.  The name of a chord is essentially a formula for the notes that it contains.  So, for example, if I took the F#m7-5 shape and raised the b5 by one fret, it would become a familiar shape for a m7 chord ... the one new chord fingering in the second set of chords:

 

Name:              Em7                 

Strings:            654321 

Frets:              x7978x   

Fingering:        x1312x

 

Chord tones:    xR573x

 

...a couple of other concepts, for those interested.  Notice that these jazzy sounding chords tend not to use the high "e" string.  They are called "inside" chords: usually use the 2nd,3rd, and 4th strings, with the bass note on the 5th or 6th.  In modern jazz comping, these chords would be further reduced ...the idea is to suggest the most important notes of the harmony, without filling up all the "space" or playing notes that create potential limitations for the soloist.  A complex chord name doesn't necessarily mean a guitarist will play all the notes in the "formula." 

 

Yoslate's Super is gonna sound great playing this style ...archtops evolved with this music. 

[brentrocks]

Thanks, Brentrocks! I like to learn what I can about Heritage.  Here's another thing. In this pic ( photo credit Brent), check out the headstock just to the left of the top of that blue guitar case.  Great pictures, Mr. hadlunchwiththebigdogs!  ( A touch of insomnia, nothing more )

 

are you refering to the red one?  i think the red one is a treminator?

 

that room is amazing!!!

[brentrocks]

Man, I was going to guess, "Sandy!"   

 

wwhhheeewww!  man, you just have to laugh ;D

[brentrocks]

Thanks, Brentrocks!..... Great pictures, Mr. hadlunchwiththebigdogs!  ( A touch of insomnia, nothing more )

 

thanks 555!!!

 

next time i'm gonna ask to buff a guitar  :o

 

nevermind that burn spot...lol

[AnH555]

It's an Ibanez! The headstock midway up the far left in that picture is an Ibanez. Thought that was odd to see in the Heritage factory.

[brentrocks]

It's an Ibanez! The headstock midway up the far left in that picture is an Ibanez. Thought that was odd to see in the Heritage factory.

 

oh, i see it now

[Thundersteel]

It looks like several types of headstocks are there in the rack to the right.

[AnH555]

You're right, Steel. A Heritage D'Angelico, maybe? And a bass just above the Ibanez. They could have a garage sale.

[brentrocks]

You're right, Steel. A Heritage D'Angelico, maybe? And a bass just above the Ibanez. They could have a garage sale.

 

i would blow my load at that garage sale!!!!

[Thundersteel]

i would blow my load at that garage sale!!!!

 

I don't need a visual of that!

[ingeneri]

...since several expressed interest in trying to play this 4 chord Autumn Leaves, I thought I'd add the fingerings.  Ignore if uninterested.  So:

Chord name:        Am7            D9        G6            C6              F#m7-5         (NR) B9       Em7

Strings:              654321     654321    654321     654321     6 5  4  3  2  1   654321     654321

Frets:                 5x555x     x5455x     3x243x     8x798x     x 9 10 9 10 x    x6767x     x7578x

Fingering:            2x333x    x2133x     2x143x     2x143x     x  1 3  2  4  x    x1324x     x2134x 

 

 

chord tones*:      Rx735x    xR379x     Rx635x     Rx635x        R b5 7 m3        3795      xR373x

*this is an analysis of which tone of the chord you are playing at each spot within the grip, or chord shape.  If the chord is a minor chord, the "3's" are minor, and in this progression all the "7ths" are dominant or minor.  The number relates to the scale degree of a related scale, so the "third" is the third note of a scale, the root the first note, etc.  Once you begin to learn which tones are where within a chord, you can easily modify one shape to create another.  The name of a chord is essentially a formula for the notes that it contains.   So, for example, if I took the F#m7-5 shape and raised the b5 by one fret, it would become a familiar shape for a m7 chord ... the one new chord fingering in the second set of chords:

 

Name:               Em7                 

Strings:            654321 

Frets:               x7978x   

Fingering:         x1312x

 

Chord tones:    xR573x

 

...a couple of other concepts, for those interested.  Notice that these jazzy sounding chords tend not to use the high "e" string.  They are called "inside" chords: usually use the 2nd,3rd, and 4th strings, with the bass note on the 5th or 6th.  In modern jazz comping, these chords would be further reduced ...the idea is to suggest the most important notes of the harmony, without filling up all the "space" or playing notes that create potential limitations for the soloist.  A complex chord name doesn't necessarily mean a guitarist will play all the notes in the "formula."   

 

Yoslate's Super is gonna sound great playing this style ...archtops evolved with this music. 

 

Autumn Leaves is actually the simplest jazz tune in the world.  It's really just a simple collection of ii-V-I cadences alternating between major and minor.  In the above example, that means a ii-V-I in Gmaj followed by one in e minor.  The exception being at the start of the B section where the mnor cadence repeats itself. 

 

At the same time, it can be tricky for beginners to solo over.  Unlike most jazz tunes, the key doesn't shift.  So you can get away with wanking away in g.  However, if you're unable to create melodies and know where you are in the form you'll quickly be found out when you run on an on or stop in the middle of a chorus.

 

All the voicings above work.  However, I have to dispute the notion that you never use the top e string.  There are voice groupings for the 6432, 5432, and 4321 string groupings.  You need  a fairly decent variety of these to avoid sounding like a play-along, so knowing all the inversions for each voice grouping is very helpful.  It's also what enables you to later get into creating chord melody and chord solos.  Later on, you can develop even further by adding extensions (9,13) and alterations (b9,#11).

 

A quick chord sub to add variety when comping is the tri-tone.  Basically substitute a flat dominant II7 chord for the V7 in the ii-V-I progression.  So in Autum Leaves this would mean playing a-7, Ab7, Gmaj7 and then f#-7b5, F7, e-7.  To add similar variety to your solos, use the diminished and melodic minor scales, raised one step above, when addressing the V7 chords (ie. play d# diminished over the D7 or c diminished over the B7).

 

To make life complicated, most horn players prefer the original key of Bb to the piano/guitar friendly key of G in the Real Book.

[111518]

Ingeneri:

 

Good points, but you seem unaware this arrangement was shaped by the need to play the song with FOUR chords: 6th, 9th, m7-5, and m7 ... chosen not by me but by a joking restriction that Yoslate laid out on the thread.  This is not the way I would play the tune, but an exercise in what one can do with harmony within a strict set of limits.  I mostly agree with your comments about soloing over the tune (the minor ii/V, and the d# in the melody, implies harmonic minor, so sticking to G can produce a sour "d" --but I was stuck since I had only a minor 7th chord and neither a straight minor or minor/maj7th.  Maybe this is what you mean by the need to know your place in the tune).  None of this was part of the earlier thread, which was about the four chords that Brent could play on Yoslate's Super, other than that I mentioned in one of the posts that there was a harmonic (minor) problem with my arrangement. 

 

Though I did not say that jazz chords never use the first string, only that they tend not to use it, I stand by that point in the sense that for most guitar players the sound of a chord is determined by the notes on the top strings, and jazz chords tend not to be voiced in that way.  It is a significant difference, though you are right that it is not an absolute rule, and obviously doesn't apply to chord melody.  I also think that it is a difference in guitar sound.  Flat-top guitars tend to emphasize the highs and lows, archtops are more even and therefore are rich in the middle.  I was trying to make the point, since the thread revolved around Yoslate's wait for his archtop, that these types of chord voicings are particularly consonant with the sound of an archtop. 

 

Sorry if I sound peeved ...but I invested a lot of time in writing and proofreading this set of posts, in the hopes it would be helpful to the guys out there beginning to play around with jazz chords and intrigued by what one can do with only four.  I'm certain you are a better jazz player than I, and I read your posts with interest, but please ...a little care for context.  I invested time trying to put some information out there ...this feels like being shown up.  Certainly doesn't inspire me to provide more fodder. 

[ingeneri]

111518,

 

Sorry if you feel my post was an attack or an attempt to show you up.  I was actually responding more to some posters' comments that they found your chord chart intimidating. I understand how much work your post must have taken, but making these points clear is always a challenge given the format restrictions of these forums (no capacity for notation or tab).

 

You're right, I did miss the four chord limit.  However, my post was not intended to refute yours, merely to add an overview of the tune as a whole to your discussion of the chords. Sorry if you felt I was bullying my way in. 

 

That said, I was excited to see a discussion of music on the site.  After all, what the hell are all these planks hanging around our necks for? :afro:

[Gitfiddler]

I am always intrigued by the directions our threads go after a few posts!  8)

 

Since we're now discussing a bit of jazz music theory, I'd like to re-introduce the following link for those that might benefit from it.  (like me, for example!)

 

Check this out:

 

http://www.jazzguitar.be/

[SouthpawGuy]

Some nice music theory discussion on this thread , I appreciate everyones contributions.

 

I can understand the theory etc. , it's doing it in real time that's the problem for me, it usually sounds contrived or rehearsed, not spontaneous as it should be.

 

As Gitfiddler mentioned this is one of the great things about the HOC, discussions can go off on tangents and usually are very informative and interesting as a result.

 

I like to think of myself as a "seat of the pants" jazz player.

 

i.e. it mostly sounds like I am playing from the seat of my pants  ;D

[111518]

Ingeneri:

Fair enough ...I'm probably just cranky because of the heat. 

 

Obviously, I agree about discussion of music.  As difficult as the technical problems with notation and tab is the understandable fact that people here at HOC are at very different places musically, with very different goals.  I guess I'm so driven to learn more that I think everyone should have the same compulsion ...but why?  Guitar can and should be fun, and people derive their fun in very different ways. 

 

I hope we can continue some exchanges about music.  We need a "name that jazz head" thread, for example. 

 

By the way, I didn't know what the tritone substitution would sound like given the four chord restriction, but Am7/(NR)Ab9/G6 sounds pretty cool. 

 

As for Southpaw's comment ... I feel the same way about my jazz playing: too mechanical.  But then, for me, the same thing has been true of each new step in my playing.  I think you have to consciously play new stuff before it begins to work its way into your unconscious playing;  so, I try to target a certain scale, or substitution, when I practice, with the hope that it will eventually find its way into my more natural vocabulary.  In other words, I think the "contrived" stage is a necessary step to pushing towards new ground.  If I don't consciously do something different, I'm going to tend to fall back into the familiar and well-worn ruts. 

 

Fortunately, the Aebersold playalongs are not interactive.  None of those cats have told me, "you suck," yet, so when I try new stuff no-one gets hurt.  (I must admit that sometimes my dog gets up and leaves the room.)

[yoslate]

Well....  That all seems to have "resolved" pretty well.  As the namesake and ersatz host of this thread, actually begun by Kuz, I'd like to thank all of you guys, especially ingeneri and 111518, for the time and trouble to post enlightening material and share knowledge and experience.  You guys have given me some ideas to put into practice and also given me the feeling that I'm not completely ungrounded in what little I do know, nor alone in my musical struggles, my nearly perpetual dissatisfaction with where my playing is. 

 

It's easy to become discouraged with what seems an insurmountable corpus of knowledge to tap into and put into regular practice.  I think we all must plateau and occasionally backslide in our pursuit of something so difficult as playing a musical instrument well and meaningfully.  I don't always have a lot of support in my relationship with the instrument, so hearing from you all this time 'round was a nice shot in the arm for me this week.  Thanks all!        8)

[Kuz]

Well....  That all seems to have "resolved" pretty well.  As the namesake and ersatz host of this thread, actually begun by Kuz, I'd like to thank all of you guys, especially ingeneri and 111518, for the time and trouble to post enlightening material and share knowledge and experience.  You guys have given me some ideas to put into practice and also given me the feeling that I'm not completely ungrounded in what little I do know, nor alone in my musical struggles, my nearly perpetual dissatisfaction with where my playing is. 

 

It's easy to become discouraged with what seems an insurmountable corpus of knowledge to tap into and put into regular practice.  I think we all must plateau and occasionally backslide in our pursuit of something so difficult as playing a musical instrument well and meaningfully.  I don't always have a lot of support in my relationship with the instrument, so hearing from you all this time 'round was a nice shot in the arm for me this week.  Thanks all!        8)

 

To heck with all that sappy crap! When is the guitar of all guitars arriving to your house???  ;D

[yoslate]

To heck with all that sappy crap! When is the guitar of all guitars arriving to your house???  ;D

 

 

No sooner, I hope, than whenever the boys in Kalamazoo can send it all in the same box!  Although I suppose it'll have to go to Jay first...dammit!  Maybe I will just wind up liberating it in July in a sort of prison break, with ingeneri's Burrell.  May be time to start the tattoos of the layout of Parsons Street....  Brent!  I need some blueprints!           

[fxdx99]

oh, that's right - this thread was about "work in progress guitars"!   That's some real value-add posting by 6-digits ( ) and ingenious, tho.  These along w/the Carlton link gives me plenty to absorb.  Good stuff, Maynard!!!  Thanks for taking the time to post this in-depth, guys - really enjoy this (along with statusing where those oh-so-cool guits are)!!

 

For these jazz boxes (Eagles/Kennys/etc), are they solid tops or laminated?  For that matter, same question for 535/555s.  I'll go poke around the site and see if I find this -  was reading about a 60s Barney Kessell today (G-brand) that had some of each (laminate/solid) tops made.

 

Well, that was easy - edit my own post since site clearly shows solid tops for the thick-body jazz boxes (Nice!) and laminate's for 535/555.

[High Flying Bird]

Maybe I will just wind up liberating it in July in a sort of prison break, with ingeneri's Burrell.  May be time to start the tattoos of the layout of Parsons Street....  Brent!  I need some blueprints!           

 

I hope more than anything I can see you take ownership in Kzoo. 

 

If we have to take drastic measures..............  We can take control of the factory and the radio stations in Kzoo while T-Steel and 525 will lead a faint towards the Gibson plant in Memphis but instead paint "Heritage" on the fake smoke stack at the Nashville showroom.  Kind of like Oceans 11 but we would be called the "Shat Pack."  Cool.....

 

I am thrilled about the music discussion here as well.  I hope to see more of it.  Tomorrow I have devoted a couple of hours to working on this stuff.  Thanks gents! 

[brentrocks]

No sooner, I hope, than whenever the boys in Kalamazoo can send it all in the same box!  Although I suppose it'll have to go to Jay first...dammit!  Maybe I will just wind up liberating it in July in a sort of prison break, with ingeneri's Burrell.  May be time to start the tattoos of the layout of Parsons Street....  Brent!  I need some blueprints!           

 

LOL....i'm going down there fri.  i'll see if there has been any progress

[yoslate]

Thanks, Brent!  Tell Ren and the boys I'm actually very cool with all this.  I know that this guitar will be very special and every bit worth the wait and that I appreciate all they do.  I really don't think I'd have this any other way.  I guess if this had been a Gibson of some special description, which certainly wouldn't have been my spec, I'd have had it in relatively short order, with no real sense at all of where it came from.  Every time I think of the genesis of Gibson guitars, all I can see is that astonishing conveyor in the rafters, in the video of the Nashville plant, John posted a couple of months ago, which he aptly characterized as being like a vast dry cleaners.  And thanks again to everyone who's kept this thread going.  I've had a lot of laughs with it, and I've really dug the jazz changes dissertations!  I'm looking forward to you guys having a chance to spank some 7ths and 9ths on Sid in July!  Brent, you'd better do some work on 111518 and ingeneri's postings from yesterday!!!            8) 

 

Oh, and Kuz....  Your comment about "sappy crap" wounded me deeply!  I spent the evening, locked in my music room, listening to old Carpenters vinyl and listening to Kenny G, just trying to reconnect with myself...you know...heal....          :'(