Kuz Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Kuz, you can forget your friends at Ludlow Guitars and "the boys" at Heritage and this guy at Kirn and all the physicists and virtually every one else other than your own ear. When it come to wood, there are no certaintes. There are still, as of yet, undefinable differences. Anyone who tells you otherwise is merely speaking in generalities. As I've said before, the ones who truly had it figured out are no longer with us. All the rest are just guessing and opining. Trust only your own discerning ear. Doubt everything else that you hear and read. Creamsicle huh??? OK. I'll go along with that, only because you're a friend Yep, that is fine but my experiences have been exactly what the Ludlow Guitar boys stated (which was the same as the Heritage Boys say). So if I have experienced these characteristics and Ludlow and Heritage has played/made tens of thousands of guitars, why is it so hard for some to say that some generalities of weight and tone DO exist. Not 100% always, but generally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Nope, much to my dismay the "salmon" has fade to "creamsicle"! At this rate, Kuz, it will be transparent by 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jayce Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Yep, and I will have to say that I disagree with you. If you play a 6lb Tele and a 10lb Tele their will be generalizations that usually hold true. When I ordered my Heritages from the factory and spoke with Ren about weight & weight limits, he spoke about the guitar's weight and it's likely tone response. Alex Skolnick wants everyone of his personal 150s to be over 10lbs.... for his personal tone differences. If weight has no bearing on tone, why does a semi-hollow, weight-relieved, and chambered guitar all sound different?? They only sound a tad different unplugged. Plug them in and ad a touch of distortion or some mild affect of some kind, and you cant hear the minute variences , on top of that what ever amp you play will make it sound different as well. Weight creating a distinct sound for a guitar isn't gonna happen. Different woods used well then maybe, but weight "nope". I know others disagree and thats fine and i respect that, im just stating from my experience over the years. doesnt mean im totally right but i havnt been convinced otherwise yet , Weight nope! woods yes!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jayce Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Jayce, I value YOUR opinion, but it is very much in the minority. In addition to the boys at Heritage, Ludlow Guitars offered this quote from their web site.... "Eliminating the quality issues, which reputable makers have done in recent years, there do tend to be some consistent sonic characteristics of lighter and heavier guitars. With all else being equal (and we know that this is never the case) lighter guitars will tend to sound more open, percussive, and somewhat scooped in the midrange, with more bell-like highs. Heavier guitars will tend to have a thicker midrange, chunkier lows, and the high end seems to peak at somewhat lower frequencies. We have seen it written, by people who should know better, that a lighter body absorbs more string vibration and this translates into resonance within the wood itself, while a heavier guitar body doesn’t get moving as much from the energy coming from the strings, so the strings themselves retain more of the motion. Mostly this is nonsense, and any decent physicist will be able to explain it to you (unfortunately we did not have one on hand when this was being written). But it really doesn’t matter what the underlying cause of the differences are, they do exist. (N.B. if you are interested in the sustain of an instrument then strum it acoustically and feel the vibrations in the body die away by grasping the edge of guitar body in one hand. You can do this at various points around the guitar. Then strum the guitar and hold it against your ear, waiting for the sound to die away completely. If you are a real geek you can get your stop watch out. Then do the same test with another guitar. You will get a real sense of how the different instruments hang on to their sound in different ways.)" Very good point cuz, and it is well taken. I guess in the end if there are slight differences in tone or highs lows or mids, the amplifier that guiar is plugged into will amplify it however the amp settings are, and that sound can be tweaked however you want to tweak it, thats why i have always believed tone overall is in the elctronic chain and can be altered anyway you want it. So a ELECTRIC guitar really is at the mercy of someone who knows how to dial in a good tone,,,,simply because it's all electronic signals once plugged in. Now on an acoustic guitar all the rules are totally different, the tone sound is what ever that guitar makes, so woods, finishes, possibly even weight could make a huge difference in sound/tone. Big difference from natural tone to amplifed signals, by the time the natural sound of a guitar travels through the magnets -cable-metal input-circuitry-to your adjustable mids-bass-highs-lows-reverb tank-tubes-speaker wire- then finally a speaker,,,,,,how could that possibly have any natural signal left. Thats why you can basically make any electric guitar you have sound like any other if you play with the knobs enough.. This the reason why I feel so strongly against weight being a factor in sound. Evn if thier is a little difference in tone naturally it is for surly altered electically when plugged in. You fellas all make good points on the other end of the spectrum and thier taken respectfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jayce Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 +1 Amen Brother!!! These people swearing that every vintage axe ( or even most vintage guitars) are superior to today's Heritages.... Well, this is where guys are snorting the pixie dust. I have owned my share of vintage guitars, and most are nothing special to today's fine crafted guitars. I second that +1!!!!!! You are dead on kuz......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HRB853370 Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Jayce, I value YOUR opinion, but it is very much in the minority. In addition to the boys at Heritage, Ludlow Guitars offered this quote from their web site.... "Eliminating the quality issues, which reputable makers have done in recent years, there do tend to be some consistent sonic characteristics of lighter and heavier guitars. With all else being equal (and we know that this is never the case) lighter guitars will tend to sound more open, percussive, and somewhat scooped in the midrange, with more bell-like highs. Heavier guitars will tend to have a thicker midrange, chunkier lows, and the high end seems to peak at somewhat lower frequencies. We have seen it written, by people who should know better, that a lighter body absorbs more string vibration and this translates into resonance within the wood itself, while a heavier guitar body doesn’t get moving as much from the energy coming from the strings, so the strings themselves retain more of the motion. Mostly this is nonsense, and any decent physicist will be able to explain it to you (unfortunately we did not have one on hand when this was being written). But it really doesn’t matter what the underlying cause of the differences are, they do exist. (N.B. if you are interested in the sustain of an instrument then strum it acoustically and feel the vibrations in the body die away by grasping the edge of guitar body in one hand. You can do this at various points around the guitar. Then strum the guitar and hold it against your ear, waiting for the sound to die away completely. If you are a real geek you can get your stop watch out. Then do the same test with another guitar. You will get a real sense of how the different instruments hang on to their sound in different ways.)" Now that sounds scientific! But I remain disappointed-no quote from Mr. McInturff on this subject? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HRB853370 Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Not to perpetuate this discussion, but can somebody tell me why my SG has very good sustain and tone? Its pretty darn light. Could it be the mahogoney? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jayce Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Not to perpetuate this discussion, but can somebody tell me why my SG has very good sustain and tone? Its pretty darn light. Could it be the mahogoney? Thank you slammer!! Just shows weight has no bearings on sound and sustain.....It's because it's a nice guitar and your probably running it through good equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wesmo Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Thank you slammer!! Just shows weight has no bearings on sound and sustain.....It's because it's a nice guitar and your probably running it through good equipment. Weight has NO bearings on sound and tone?? Do you really believe that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuz Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Very good point cuz, and it is well taken. I guess in the end if there are slight differences in tone or highs lows or mids, the amplifier that guiar is plugged into will amplify it however the amp settings are, and that sound can be tweaked however you want to tweak it, thats why i have always believed tone overall is in the elctronic chain and can be altered anyway you want it. So a ELECTRIC guitar really is at the mercy of someone who knows how to dial in a good tone,,,,simply because it's all electronic signals once plugged in. Now on an acoustic guitar all the rules are totally different, the tone sound is what ever that guitar makes, so woods, finishes, possibly even weight could make a huge difference in sound/tone. Big difference from natural tone to amplifed signals, by the time the natural sound of a guitar travels through the magnets -cable-metal input-circuitry-to your adjustable mids-bass-highs-lows-reverb tank-tubes-speaker wire- then finally a speaker,,,,,,how could that possibly have any natural signal left. Thats why you can basically make any electric guitar you have sound like any other if you play with the knobs enough.. This the reason why I feel so strongly against weight being a factor in sound. Evn if thier is a little difference in tone naturally it is for surly altered electically when plugged in. You fellas all make good points on the other end of the spectrum and thier taken respectfully. Wow, I think you and I are starting to get closer to agreeing !!!! Ha, ha, Bottom line is I believe there are some generalized differences between weight and tone (I agree with the one I quoted above, they mirror my experiences completely), but the difference can be small enough that you can change them with different pickups, different pedals, and different amp settings. I don't know if it is completely possible to make a Strat through a cranked Marshall sound like a Les Paul through a cranked Marshall, but I know both will sound good!!!! There was that interesting post about Billy Gibbons current rig and how he plays all his guitars through an eq analyzer that can then be matched so the eq coming out from the amp is exactly the same. So in essence all his guitars sound close to identical. My question to him would be..... what is the fun in that????????????? I want my Tele to sound like a Tele, a Strat like a Strat, a 150 like a 150, ect....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spectrum13 Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 If weight effects sound and tone, what would happen if we had a shoot out with a 12 lbs and an 8 lbs 150 on the space station? I would go with the density on a cellular level in the wood. Take a heavy opera singer and a normal weight opera singer. Send them in orbit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 If weight effects sound and tone, what would happen if we had a shoot out with a 12 lbs and an 8 lbs 150 on the space station? Ill go...Ill do it....pick me.. Yeah I dont think its the weight that makes the difference but the density. Not comparing swampash to mahogany but type with type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wesmo Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 If weight effects sound and tone, what would happen if we had a shoot out with a 12 lbs and an 8 lbs 150 on the space station? I would go with the density on a cellular level in the wood. Take a heavy opera singer and a normal weight opera singer. Send them in orbit. Very interesting question and concept! I agree with the density also. However, weight often relates directly to mass. It would probably take some pretty significant and sophisticated electronic testing equipment to determine exactly what effect increased mass has on a guitar body's ability to shape tone, than one with less mass. As I mentioned earlier, all anyone can really do on this subject without such testing equipment, is to opine. And, even with the testing equipment, there would be too many other variables between the 2 guitar bodies for 100% certainty and accuracy. It's really an argument of factless opinions. And who really cares anyway? Ya strap on a guitar, plug it in and if it speaks to you its weight is irrelevant, as it relates to the tone. There are other reasons that may come into play, such as comfort and (for me anyway) perception. A long time ago, I bought a 1979 Fender Strat on the cheap, without even seeing it. When I finally got it, I picked it up out of the case and freaked out at its weight. It played OK, it sounded OK, but, I just couldn't get beyond its weight. Seemed like it was double that of my other strats. Just didn't "feel" right to me. I gave it to our sound man, who couldn't afford a good guitar. (He was always a better guitar player than me anyway) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wesmo Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Ill go...Ill do it....pick me.. Yeah I dont think its the weight that makes the difference but the density. Not comparing swampash to mahogany but type with type. well, if two H150s are the exact same dimensions and both are mahog, then it's obviously the density differential causing the weight differential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 well, if two H150s are the exact same dimensions and both are mahog, then it's obviously the density differential causing the weight differential. no shit sherlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HRB853370 Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Weight has NO bearings on sound and tone?? Do you really believe that? I believe that is what he said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Sorry wesmo, I cant edit my post. Apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuz Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Ill go...Ill do it....pick me.. Yeah I dont think its the weight that makes the difference but the density. Not comparing swampash to mahogany but type with type. Yes, that is exactly what we are talking about (or at least what I am talking about). Weight of the guitar is related to the density of the guitar. I am saying there is a difference in tone when comparing two guitars with the same species of wood but with different weights (aka different desities which helps determine weight!!) Yep, I think we are all starting to getting closer to agree. Again, I applaud this HOC croud to express opinions without getting flamed and talking like respectful adults, well done HOC members!!!! Woops, maybe I spoke too soon.... LOL!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Yes, that is exactly what we are talking about (or at least what I am talking about). Weight of the guitar is related to the density of the guitar. I am saying there is a difference in tone when comparing two guitars with the same species of wood but with different weights (aka different desities which helps determine weight!!) Yep, I think we are all starting to getting closer to agree. Again, I applaud this HOC croud to express opinions without getting flamed and talking like respectful adults, well done HOC members!!!! Woops, maybe I spoke too soon.... LOL!!!!! Yes. Ive been sick for a while and have spent too much time on guitar forums. Ive lost my manners and restraint. Also spell check. Didnt realise how much I used it. I should probably take a break. Even thoughthe difference to a listener between a heavy guitar and a light guitar or a line6 xtlive and a cranked plexi is not really noticable, it is to the person who is playing. Thats where all the small increments matter. Its kinda like tyres on motor bikes, theyre all black and round but I used to prefer the feel on the road of one brand over others. It really didnt matter what anyone else thought. When I was powering out of a corner I liked the feeling of that brand and model. Felt good. Responded to the throttle and my weight just as I liked. With a guitar, I like a more dense guitar. When I smack down hard it feels like it sounds. With a less dense guitar I feel like I have to hit it harder but if I do the strings vibrate to much and I get a temporary out of tune thing happening. The less dense guitar just doesnt react like I want. Doesnt give me the sound coming up through th floor boards kind of feeling like a denser guitar. Some one watching me play might just be thinking "dudes got different socks on" and have no clue or care about the time it took me to chose my guitar over all the others that were in the selection process. I just pick heavy guitars because they sound right and feel right to me. Then I run them through a whole lot of transistors, digital devices and crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koula901 Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Then I run them through a whole lot of transistors, digital devices and crap. : ) Hope u feel better soon, Tully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wesmo Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Sorry wesmo, I cant edit my post. Apologies. tully; no need for an apology. It was my bad to begin with. I misinterpreted your post. Thought you were differentiating between weight and density. Rereading it made it clear you were corrolating the two. Besides, Sherlock is my middle name anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jayce Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Weight has NO bearings on sound and tone?? Do you really believe that? yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yngwieaddict Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Hello I was surprised when see the weight of Heritage H150 guitars... The middleweight of a H150 is between 4,2 and 4,5kg - 9,3 and 9,8 lbs ???? As an exemple, a H150 59" custom shop is at 9,61lbs.... Is that a correct weight, the balance of bass and treeble of the sound will be good ???? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthpawGuy Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Hello I was surprised when see the weight of Heritage H150 guitars... The middleweight of a H150 is between 4,2 and 4,5kg - 9,3 and 9,8 lbs ???? As an exemple, a H150 59" custom shop is at 9,61lbs.... Is that a correct weight, the balance of bass and treeble of the sound will be good ???? Thanks. Weights vary because the wood varies. My '03 150 is 8.2lb and my '03 157 is 9.4lbs, both were bought used and unseen by myself, neither were "custom shop" to my knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yngwieaddict Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 And the sound of your guitars is similar ? The '03 is has a more "agressive" sound ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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