heritagefan7 Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 I have a Vox valvetronic vt50 and it is just., IMO, really awesome. It certianly has it's limitations, but man is it clear and strong and versatile! I've always owned solid state stuff, while me friends have had tubes. the tube (particularly the Fender twin reverb) seems extremely clean, clear and strong...but, the VT 50 seems fairly close (again IMO) and has a lot more versatility...So is there really that big of a gap b/w today's modeling amps and tube amps in terms of clean/clear tone?
mars_hall Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Depends on your degree of sensitivity and your ability to discern the differences.
barrymclark Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Close you eyes and listen. If you are happy.... then awesome. Don't buy with a spec sheet, a brochure or with your favorite musician in mind. Buy with your ears. If the Valvetronix does it for you, then awesome. I have said before, I will put my Cube against anything anybody has... and that will happen is they will find themselves matched by a $300 used amp. Now... you can have a taste that would lead you away from the Cube or whatever tubes or not. But.... the quality of tone is unmistakable. Amp makers innovations in tone improvement over the past 10 years for modelling is striking. I would call Axe-FX more of a modeller than the Cube. That amp... you can set up a 5150 sound... and then have a 5150 set up right next to it in a recording... and the tone difference is BARELY discernable. This was on a thread named "Guess which one is the real deal" I had to A/B back and forth and FINALLY I picked out the mush that told me there are tubes involved but that was just a guess. Turned out I was right... but I could just as easily been wrong just like half of the people in the poll. Honestly, I preferred the modelled sound as I posted in the poll. I guessed the 2nd track but preferred the first. The Cube... it just does flavors. That's my view on it. Had they had the two amp's recording samples separate... there is no way I could have just said at all, not even a guess, that it was tube or not. Now.. the early days or even 5 years ago in modelling... yeah. Crap. I agree.
schundog Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 All of my current amps are tube amps, but one "models" as well, Fenders Super Champ XD. It makes it a very versatile practice amp, allowing a smorgasbord of options with good enough tone for not much money. I had a Vox Valvetronics 50 at one time, and dug the tones in it, too, but it was cheaply built w/ a plastic input jack that fell into the amp. Still a fun amp, but pros won't take one seriously over more durable tube amps. Great for home use.
smurph1 Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 i played a Line 6 Flextone 2 for 5 years and absolutely Loved That amp!! No matter what song we played, what bar we were in, I could dial up a tone that fit..And it was LOUD to boot..i have a friend who has a Valvetronix and loves it.. the only reason I don't still have that Flextone is because I put a beer on it while I was playing..(not recommended) DOH!!
yoslate Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Isn't it just great that they make chocolate and vanilla?!
barrymclark Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Isn't it just great that they make chocolate and vanilla?! AND neopolitan!
DetroitBlues Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 To me there is a tone difference, but I think it matters too as to what you are playing. Jazz players may favor solid state amps because of their ultra clean tones and response. Myself, I'm a blues-rock guy and I love the warmth of a good soaked tube amp....
barrymclark Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 To me there is a tone difference, but I think it matters too as to what you are playing. Jazz players may favor solid state amps because of their ultra clean tones and response. Myself, I'm a blues-rock guy and I love the warmth of a good soaked tube amp.... But... could you listen to a single recording with nothing to reference other than the rerecording and definitively tell whether or not a tube amp is producing it? I am guessing no as that would the case for the vast majority of people save for a very, very select few. The thing is, going from tube amp to tube amp there is a tone difference and some are so far apart from each other, saying that there is a 'tube' tone really has a hard time being applied. In my opinion, I think the tube thing really is in the mind. That isn't writing it off at all. I mean, if you feel better about the gear you are playing through, then you will play better through it too... or at least you perceive yourself doing so where as an average listener-on will not even notice. It is one of those only I will know it is a Cube and only you will know it is a Tube.
barrymclark Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 ...of course you have to remember these opinons come from a guy who finds the distortion on a JC120 very usable.
Hfan Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 I love the tones of my tube amps with or without breakup. Never tried a really good SS amp and don't know if I could pass the blindfold test. One thing for sure; the tubes currently available are a challenge in that the old ones are expensive and the new ones can be hit or miss and are not cheap either. If I had a reliable SS amp with great tone how bad could that be? Or maybe tinkering with our tube amps is part of the fun?
barrymclark Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 HFAN, that is exactly where most hardware modellers fall down. The software ones have ever inch the flexibility of a tube amp. The Axe-FX is the only notable hardware modeller that I know of that has that flexibility. You can mix tubes, tone stacks, etc. That is about to change if my buddy is right. He says 3 companies are getting in on the AxeFx action one of which is Roland. Should be releasing this year.
JeffB Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 I have a Vox valvetronic vt50 and it is just., IMO, really awesome. It certianly has it's limitations, but man is it clear and strong and versatile! I've always owned solid state stuff, while me friends have had tubes. the tube (particularly the Fender twin reverb) seems extremely clean, clear and strong...but, the VT 50 seems fairly close (again IMO) and has a lot more versatility...So is there really that big of a gap b/w today's modeling amps and tube amps in terms of clean/clear tone? My brother uses one of these Vox's and plays in a dub band, a rockabilly band and a heavy alt rock metal stoner????band. Theyre all original bands and all have cross over points. But the amp is up for the task and he makes it sound good whether he's using an EMG loaded LTD EX or his Danelectro 59 or barritone Dano. He also has his fender amps but seems to use his Vox for most gigs and rehearsals.
Kuz Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 HFAN, that is exactly where most hardware modellers fall down. The software ones have ever inch the flexibility of a tube amp. The Axe-FX is the only notable hardware modeller that I know of that has that flexibility. You can mix tubes, tone stacks, etc. That is about to change if my buddy is right. He says 3 companies are getting in on the AxeFx action one of which is Roland. Should be releasing this year. I was playing my 150s through my Axe-Fx last night on some Tweed Deluxe patches I made. I would be happy to post an A/B of the Axe-Fx vs a real Tweed Deluxe Clone. I don't think people could tell the difference. I run my Axe-Fx through some high quality monitors. This where people go it all wrong with judging modeling gear (especially the Axe-Fx). They listen to it through a crappy pair of $100 monitors or worse yet, $20 headphones, and say they can hear the difference. On my home studio rig, I doubt anyone could tell a discernible difference.
heritagefan7 Posted January 5, 2012 Author Posted January 5, 2012 My brother uses one of these Vox's and plays in a dub band, a rockabilly band and a heavy alt rock metal stoner????band. Theyre all original bands and all have cross over points. But the amp is up for the task and he makes it sound good whether he's using an EMG loaded LTD EX or his Danelectro 59 or barritone Dano. He also has his fender amps but seems to use his Vox for most gigs and rehearsals. My LP, 555, 574 and strat all shine w/ this amp (in spite of my playing.) I'd say that I notice the greatest difference (Fender twin tube vs. Valvetronix ss) w/ the Strat. The strat Fender tube combo is hard to beat---but the humbuckers through the Vox are extremely nice. The strat is as well, but I think the humbuckers---especially when run each through the gammit of options on the Vox--really shine. That's a great thing when the Vox cost me $300!... As an added bonus---It will absolutely blow the windows out and have the neighbors calling the local authorities when pushed even slightly--and still maintain sound quality in the process. I don't experiment too much in this arena though!
schundog Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 If you want to experience some different sounds, take the back off of the Vox; Or, some will cut a circular hole in the closed back to get a more open sound.. Have some fun!
High Flying Bird Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 Isn't it just great that they make chocolate and vanilla?! I suspect you and I like the same flavor.
JeffB Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 My LP, 555, 574 and strat all shine w/ this amp (in spite of my playing.) I'd say that I notice the greatest difference (Fender twin tube vs. Valvetronix ss) w/ the Strat. The strat Fender tube combo is hard to beat---but the humbuckers through the Vox are extremely nice. The strat is as well, but I think the humbuckers---especially when run each through the gammit of options on the Vox--really shine. That's a great thing when the Vox cost me $300!... As an added bonus---It will absolutely blow the windows out and have the neighbors calling the local authorities when pushed even slightly--and still maintain sound quality in the process. I don't experiment too much in this arena though! Fender guitar and fender (or fender copied) amp really does seem to just work.
schundog Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 The obvious advantage to me of modelling amps and/or multieffect pedals that have amp modelling on them is that I get to try out "amps," OK, simulations of amps, that I will NEVER either be able to afford or would never buy because of practicality. I'm a basement classic rock/country/blues kinda guy; Will I EVER need a Marshall/Soldano/etc stack?! No, but I get an idea of what that tone is very quickly and cheaply with one of these. Then, when I'm done trying that out, easily switch over to something completely different. I love my tube amps, and the sound they deliver from Guitar-Cable-Amp, but it's sure nice to be able to get some completely different sounds, on the cheap, for a home player like me, or, as Tully mentioned about his brother, someone who need completely different sounds while gigging in completely different bands. Used, these Voxes can be had for next to nothing. As I mentioned, however, they aren't built like a tank; somewhat planned obsolesence.
Kuz Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 The other thing to remember (especially with the Axe-Fx) is the sound you are hear is that of a MIC'D GUITAR SPEAKER/CABINET. This would be the same tone you would hear of the particular amp being mic'd on a CD or being mic'd on stage and then sent through the PA.
barrymclark Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 From all of the demo's I have heard, putting flexibility aside, I'd put the modeler units in this order in terms what I like the sound of the most. This isn't saying that these do a better job of immitating certain amps. I don't care about that so I don't listen for it. haha. I base these opinions on demos where they played the same riff through several of these units. Roland COSM (not just the Cube but any of their COSM hardware like the BR-1600 or VG-99) Fractal Axe-FX and Line6 HD Pro tied for second. Vox Valvetronix This is a VERY tight top three. Not a lot of light between them. I'd be happy to play through about any of them. To be perfectly honest... the BEST sounding amp sim I have EVER heard is the TH2 by Overloud. HOLY CRAP that sounds good. They put that in box... I will sell my children for it. But... since that isn't hardware... I didn't put that in the list.
kbp810 Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 Transistors can't keep you warm on a cold winter night the way tubes can! This is an overly simplified explanation... The key to the tube sound in a nutshell is "distortion" - keeping that in mind, I am talking about both the clean and overdriven sounds. Even when "voiced" to be clean, there is still a small amount of distortion that chimes through as what is often refered to as an overtone (second-order harmonic distortion). While the sound is still "clean" to the ears, there is a hint of a sort of "warmness" or "3d" effect that seems to follow the note. For the overdriven sound, add the above with a soft non-linear clip, that can produce a sort of richer and more rounded sound (again relating to higher levels of second-order harmonic distortion). These are two of the often desirable characteristics that solid state components struggle to recreate. Can everyone pick up on the nuances? Not always, no... If your playing a gig will the audience care? Probably not... To a cork sniffing tube snob such as myself, I absolutely have to hear those characteristics in an amp, if not, it bugs the heck out of me; but even that being said it, it's for my own personal benefit - I'm usually playing for my dog and/or my wife, who I assure you couldn't care less!
barrymclark Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 Well said, Brian! haha. Quality build is quality build and you either like it or your don't and that has more to do with the player than the amp.
t0aj15 Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 In my case it became a no-brainer as soon as I received my Axe-Fx Ultra. It just has sooo many more possibilities then ANY amp out there, and I don't just mean the multitude of available amps & efx. The connection possibilities far exceed even the most flexible of tube amps and with a minimum of hassle. For example stop and think of all the hoops you have to jump through if you want to record a tube amp, choosing efx, mics, mic placement, all the extra cabling, and most importantly the time invested in setting all this up....time and time again, especially if your doing multi-track recording. Yesterday I got a Tascam 24 track recorder and it was so nice to be able to run a single S/PDIF (digital audio) cable from the output of the Axe-Fx to the input of the DAW and start laying down tracks without having to do anything more then punching buttons and adjusting sliders on the DAW to make changes (tracks etc.). Using this method keeps everything in the digital domain from the input of the Axe-Fx to the finished product that comes out of the built in CD burner in the DAW, there is NO loss due to D/A or A/D conversions. This is just one example of the many ways the Axe-Fx outshines tube amps, and keep in mind of course this is just IMO.
barrymclark Posted January 5, 2012 Posted January 5, 2012 Agreed, for someone who does a lot of recording, something like the Axe-FX/Pod HD is all but a must have. If Overloud ever puts their TH2 in a box... then I will be seriously GAS-sing. If you guys ever get the chance, look up videos on this software. You won't believe it.
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