heritagefan7 Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 A recent check of ebay comparing Heritage 150's vs Gibson LP standards has the gibbys on average several hundered dollars less (again on average) than the Heritages. Now, it could be the fact that there are just lots more G's out there---or maybe the timing and that there just happens to be a random sampling of LP's tht are lower cost out there---but does this mean that maybe the myth of an H "poor" resale is going by the way? Is the rest of the world shifting to the H side?(Gibby's got the classic collectables, but apples to apples in today's market H looks awfully strong)
Spectrum13 Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 In a word yes. I have heard this conversation and the evidence does not support the myth. When I crunch the numbers G takes a much larger hit when first sold. A 40% or 50% drop on a $5000 R9 vs a 40% 50% drop on a $2800 157 would make the 157-150 a better resale value as the R9 lost an additional $1000 off the cost new.
JohnCovach Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 You can get an H-150 for $1200 without trying, and it's tough to find a LP for less that $1500. The 150 is the better guitar and more directly comparable with a Custom Shop LP, which is tough to touch under $2000. And an LP at $1500 will sell faster than a 150 at $1200 every time. I see Heritage guitars listed at unreasonable prices all the time. They're worth much more in terms of quality, but in terms of the actual market--the day to day of buying and selling--prices are often too high. It's not the price listed that counts, it's the selling price that tells the tale. Having said that, as the owner of about 8 Heritages (I haven't counted them in a while), I'd prefer that the prices go through the roof!!
the jayce Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 Tough subject to put a finger on. I dont think heritage values will be skyrocketing simply because the name has no demand. I like that though because if i want another heritage i can buy it cheap!!! I see these rediculouse asking prices on ebay and craigslist alot for heritages but we all know those prices aint gonna happen. It's great when where a buyer, and the buyer better be really carefull as to what they pay because selling a heritage isnt an easy task , thats why it has to be bought cheap cause it has to be sold cheap. A few jazz models heritage has will hold a pretty good value in the jazz market but other than that got to be really carefull not to let gas get in the way of common sense when it comes buying time. Gibsons sell quick because of who they are. You can buy a nice standard for about 2100 new if your a seasoned and savy negotiator , and sell it for around 1500-1700 used. Thats not a bad resale at all. You buy a new heritage and go to resell and you will lose at least half what you paid, kinda a slap in the face to the owner and heritage but doesnt change the fact. Heritage is such a good guitar i just cant stand they take hits like that, but thats where brand recognition comes in..........just because it a great product doesnt mean the majority knows it exists..... Can we all say together" !!MARKETING!! The one and only thng heriage dropped the ball on from the beginning, not only did they drop the ball -----> they popped it, cut it up, burned it, then sent it's ashes to the center of the sun! when it came to thier marketing strategy. Untill heritage has a huge recognized name are heritages aint gonna ever gain value. somthing to rember when getting ready to spend hard earned cash on one. I aint going to be playing 5 guitars for ever and when it comes time to sell it would be nice to be able to do so.
GuitArtMan Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 In a word yes. I have heard this conversation and the evidence does not support the myth. When I crunch the numbers G takes a much larger hit when first sold. A 40% or 50% drop on a $5000 R9 vs a 40% 50% drop on a $2800 157 would make the 157-150 a better resale value as the R9 lost an additional $1000 off the cost new. huh? 40-50% is 40-50%. That's like saying a car that sold new for 20K new and 10K used is a better deal than a car that sold for $30K new and sold for 15K used. They both lost 50%. I think you have to take into account street price vs. list price. I hope nobody here pays list price for their guitars.
heritagefan7 Posted January 17, 2012 Author Posted January 17, 2012 I agree that prices on ebay do seem exremely high...but if that trend continues, does it in effect change the market and make H a more "expensive" guitar. In effect, isn't this a form of marketing? Granted, Cragislist will surely sell 150s cheaper but Ebay and Gbase are ( i would certainly imagine) seen by thousands more people (and thus have a greater impact) than local ctaigslist stuff. Certainly not an intended marketing strategy---but hypothetically--is it not possible that tgis kind of exposure and listing git at these types of prices might in some way create a new value for Heritage? I agree abt not wanting that to happen--as I want 1000 gits and can't afford 1 at today's prices--AND, I'm not saying it would happen overnight but grass roots stuff can be impacting--just ask the variety of protest movement folks. (not intended to be political on that one--they just seem to be everywhere today!)
Spectrum13 Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 Custom shop Gibson Black Beauty lists for $6351 and sells retail for $4499 then sells used for $2,800 the first owner lost $1,700 Heritage 157 whatever the list ($3800?) retails for $2,800- $3,000 and sells used for $1500-$1800 the first owner lost $1,200. Let me know if my numbers are off but... when you drop 50% on a $30,000 car you lose $15,000 on a $20,000 you lose $10,000. That $5,000 difference on the car and $500 on the Black Beauty. Not an exact science but to a HOC member a 150 is on par with a VOS or R7-8-9 not a standard Gibson. So a new 157 BB takes less of a hit first time to market. On the used market I would speculate that a savy buyer/ trader like Brent or Will, rarely lose a dime when they sell. If you compare what a 1990-2005 150 -157 cost back then retail and used today, it might be pretty close.
JackBaruth Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 I am seeing more and more R7-0 guitars unsold on eBay. Gibson has flooded the market with Custom Shop stuff. If you look at the GuitarCenter catalog half of the offerings are big money. GCPlatinum has literally hundreds of $4,000 Gibson guitars. There are too many guitars in the market. People don't break/ruin/lose guitars the way they used to do. Jukeboxes have killed the market for "working musicians" who would do something like buy a LP Standard, play it for five years, and then pitch it under a bed because the frets were gone and the electronics were no longer dependable. Nowadays most guitars are lovingly stored in a case 99% of their life. They don't wear out. They just get old. What will change this? Simple. Wood is a scarce resource. Fifty years from now the wood guitar will be a strictly vintage item.
DetroitBlues Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 Good post Jack. Couldn't agree with you more!
glaister Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 I think the power of the internet will make many more people aware of Heritage guitars than there used to be,thus resale prices will increase although to what level who knows ! Here in the UK I would say the prices realised for H guitars have improved over the last 2-3 years for sure.
Kuz Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 Custom shop Gibson Black Beauty lists for $6351 and sells retail for $4499 then sells used for $2,800 the first owner lost $1,700 Heritage 157 whatever the list ($3800?) retails for $2,800- $3,000 and sells used for $1500-$1800 the first owner lost $1,200. Let me know if my numbers are off but... when you drop 50% on a $30,000 car you lose $15,000 on a $20,000 you lose $10,000. That $5,000 difference on the car and $500 on the Black Beauty. Not an exact science but to a HOC member a 150 is on par with a VOS or R7-8-9 not a standard Gibson. So a new 157 BB takes less of a hit first time to market. On the used market I would speculate that a savy buyer/ trader like Brent or Will, rarely lose a dime when they sell. If you compare what a 1990-2005 150 -157 cost back then retail and used today, it might be pretty close. +1
Hfan Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 I think the power of the internet will make many more people aware of Heritage guitars than there used to be,thus resale prices will increase although to what level who knows ! Here in the UK I would say the prices realised for H guitars have improved over the last 2-3 years for sure. I would say the opposite is true here in the states.
H Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 I would say the opposite is true here in the states. My recent experience and research follows your opinion, Pete. There is lots of interest and questions but not many putting their hands in their pockets. The eBay completed listings view tells the story pretty well - lots of red in there, lots of low prices. It's a good time to buy.
JohnCovach Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 It is indeed a good time to buy. But given all of the reports about the bad economy, I have yet to see many "desperation" deals--a few, but not many.
111518 Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 It is indeed a good time to buy. But given all of the reports about the bad economy, I have yet to see many "desperation" deals--a few, but not many. I agree. I'm no market insider, but it strikes me that what is happening is that an affluent generation is beginning to age out of the market, and/or seeing the stagnation of their investment income and therefore choosing to curtail their purchase of luxury toys. They (let's be honest ...we, in many cases) are not facing the repo man, but we're thinking harder about the next buy and maybe instituting one in/one out rules. So, guitars aren't going to be let go for nothing, but the guitars they put on the market, and much of the high end product of manufacturers, is sitting around unsold. My friend in the biz saw his mid and lower line sells begin to steadily diminish a decade ago, but for most of that time his sale of high end guitars, new and vintage, remained relatively stable. In the past couple of years, that market began to tail off. So, with all due respect to Jack's analysis, I don't think the change is so much that guitars are not wearing out --I think its been 30 years or more since a significant percentage of high dollar guitars actually got played by working musicians-- but rather the combination of guys shrinking their collections, and tempering their buying, has, I agree, produced a glut of high-end guitars on the market. Prices asked are pretty inconsequential. At any given moment a guitar is worth what you can find someone with cash to give you for it. I've been very patient and careful about what I've bought over the years, and I'm certain I'm underwater. Thing is, the generational dynamic is not going to change, even with economic recovery, and, when people become cautious about buying, I think it tends to push them towards established brands that seem safer investments. As with so much in our economy, the rich get richer ... the most rare and desired (widely known) guitars are likely to be more and more the exclusive focus of investment. I love my guitars, but I have no illusions that they are likely to appreciate ,,, and, unfortunately, that is particularly true of my Heritage guitars.
heritagefan7 Posted January 18, 2012 Author Posted January 18, 2012 Someone once said something that I found helpful across the board--- "Some people find a glass to be half empty, others find it half full, and some don't waste their time w/ that--they just appreciate the drink of water!" Ever think that we just make so much out of what it's worth on the market that we lose sight of what it's worth to us as just a really awesome guitar?--Maybe HOC folks understand this particularly well....AND we can't take it w/ us, so play 'em/enjoy 'em now!
the jayce Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 My recent experience and research follows your opinion, Pete. There is lots of interest and questions but not many putting their hands in their pockets. The eBay completed listings view tells the story pretty well - lots of red in there, lots of low prices. It's a good time to buy. Yep! 100% dead on. You want to know the real value of anything these days go to the ebay completed listings on any item you wish and you will see the true value,,,,,,,,,, cause in the end what it sells for is the value, not what we think they should sell for. And yes the completed listing on heritages are 99% red and a few green that sold offensively cheap. Thats the reality and facts..... Everything else is just could of / would of / should of no matter how well it's phrased.
the jayce Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 I agree. I'm no market insider, but it strikes me that what is happening is that an affluent generation is beginning to age out of the market, and/or seeing the stagnation of their investment income and therefore choosing to curtail their purchase of luxury toys. They (let's be honest ...we, in many cases) are not facing the repo man, but we're thinking harder about the next buy and maybe instituting one in/one out rules. So, guitars aren't going to be let go for nothing, but the guitars they put on the market, and much of the high end product of manufacturers, is sitting around unsold. My friend in the biz saw his mid and lower line sells begin to steadily diminish a decade ago, but for most of that time his sale of high end guitars, new and vintage, remained relatively stable. In the past couple of years, that market began to tail off. So, with all due respect to Jack's analysis, I don't think the change is so much that guitars are not wearing out --I think its been 30 years or more since a significant percentage of high dollar guitars actually got played by working musicians-- but rather the combination of guys shrinking their collections, and tempering their buying, has, I agree, produced a glut of high-end guitars on the market. Prices asked are pretty inconsequential. At any given moment a guitar is worth what you can find someone with cash to give you for it. I've been very patient and careful about what I've bought over the years, and I'm certain I'm underwater. Thing is, the generational dynamic is not going to change, even with economic recovery, and, when people become cautious about buying, I think it tends to push them towards established brands that seem safer investments. As with so much in our economy, the rich get richer ... the most rare and desired (widely known) guitars are likely to be more and more the exclusive focus of investment. I love my guitars, but I have no illusions that they are likely to appreciate ,,, and, unfortunately, that is particularly true of my Heritage guitars. Yep. Well stated.
JackBaruth Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 To be fair, the same is true of Gibson CS stuff. It doesn't help that Gibson went through a round of price cutting this year with the baked maple guitars.
H Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 To be fair, the same is true of Gibson CS stuff. It doesn't help that Gibson went through a round of price cutting this year with the baked maple guitars. I'd suggest it's the same for any reasonably high value, luxury product out there. They are the first things people stop buying when times get tougher.
pegleg32 Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 Another factor that is having an effect on new high end guitars (not vintage or collectable) is the improving quality of low end guitars. How many times have we seen on this site that guys are plum pleased with their MIM Strat or Logan Tele. If you can get good quality cheap, why pay big bucks. As for resale of Heritages, I have been pricing and following Heritages for only about 4 or 5 years, but I would say I have seen no change in the resale values of similar Heritage guitars during that time.
DetroitBlues Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 I would say the opposite is true here in the states. We can attribute that to lack of demand. With record number of unemployment levels in the US, people don't have the disposable income they used to have. So if they have a dime to spare, it may go towards an Epi Custom instead of a H157.... Not quite the same, but it gets them in view of the same ballpark. Not to mention the flood of new Gibson models coming out, more people hear and see Gibsons everyone and will be inclined to purchase them over the Heritage just by name recognition alone considering Gibson is trying to make their guitars at lower pricepoints for people. $1500 for a new Gibson Les Paul or $1500 for an unknown Heritage 150.... We know the obivious choice, but doesn't mean Joe Blow walking in Guitar Center knows that....
heritagefan7 Posted January 18, 2012 Author Posted January 18, 2012 We can attribute that to lack of demand. With record number of unemployment levels in the US, people don't have the disposable income they used to have. So if they have a dime to spare, it may go towards an Epi Custom instead of a H157.... Not quite the same, but it gets them in view of the same ballpark. Not to mention the flood of new Gibson models coming out, more people hear and see Gibsons everyone and will be inclined to purchase them over the Heritage just by name recognition alone considering Gibson is trying to make their guitars at lower pricepoints for people. $1500 for a new Gibson Les Paul or $1500 for an unknown Heritage 150.... We know the obivious choice, but doesn't mean Joe Blow walking in Guitar Center knows that.... I totally agree--again, my recent encouter w/ a GC manager resulted in his comment that Heritage is "nice...and as close to a gibson as you can get." Name recognition takes work, time and $, but once people adopt it (Q-tip or cotton swab...Coke or soda)--it just seems to dominate both thought patters and purchasing habits!
JohnCovach Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 Another factor that is having an effect on new high end guitars (not vintage or collectable) is the improving quality of low end guitars. How many times have we seen on this site that guys are plum pleased with their MIM Strat or Logan Tele. If you can get good quality cheap, why pay big bucks. As for resale of Heritages, I have been pricing and following Heritages for only about 4 or 5 years, but I would say I have seen no change in the resale values of similar Heritage guitars during that time. I agree on both counts. Prices have remained about the same over the last few years. There was an uptick at about the time the factory closed. Before that, these guitars were even cheaper on the used market. I think I paid $900 for my 535 back then (which had been plecked and upgraded significantly). And cheap guitars (and amps) are good and plenty. As much as I enjoy the quality of my Heritage guitars, the truth is I could probably do most of my gigs on an Epiphone and a Crate amp without too much trouble. A few years ago I used to show up from time to time with a DeArmond guitar and a Crate amp, which together cost me less than $700. They sounded fine.
mark555 Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 My recent experience and research follows your opinion, Pete. There is lots of interest and questions but not many putting their hands in their pockets. The eBay completed listings view tells the story pretty well - lots of red in there, lots of low prices. It's a good time to buy. fewer Heritage guitars available in the UK means that it only takes a small rise in awareness of players to chase the very limited numbers on the used market, which may nudge the prices up a little if there are two or three players interested in the same guitar. I personally believe that if only 20 people in the UK wanted a Heritage at the same time it could have quite an effect here. The Gibson brand still counts for more here - we are the enlightened few.
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