Hfan Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 I have been searching for NOS tubes, keep hearing how superior they are to spotty new production ones. Heard this tip: keep an eye out for old organs (the musical type) they are often filled with many old tubes specifically 12ax7's. Often they sit in someone's home for years and are lightly used. I just priced some NOS's on a few tube retailer sites and almost spit my coffee over the prices. Anyone else with tips for finding these tubes without obtaining a 2nd mortgage?
Guest HRB853370 Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 I have been searching for NOS tubes, keep hearing how superior they are to spotty new production ones. Heard this tip: keep an eye out for old organs (the musical type) they are often filled with many old tubes specifically 12ax7's. Often they sit in someone's home for years and are lightly used. I just priced some NOS's on a few tube retailer sites and almost spit my coffee over the prices. Anyone else with tips for finding these tubes without obtaining a 2nd mortgage? I have old organs...and I plan to donate them when I am no longer here.
Joe Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 I'd like to get a new liver but nobody wants my old one.
H Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 Not NOS but the New Sensor Mullard 12AX7 tubes get rave reviews.
Gitfiddler Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 According to some amp techs, many of the NOS tubes have been picked over, leaving behind only the least desireable. Picked over means that they've been in and out of tube testers so many times that they are no longer 'fresh', some being microphonic from the repeated testing. Tube/Valve purchasing seems to be the new niche area for tube amp gear heads...and the high prices reflect the increased demand.
pegleg32 Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 If you really want some NOS tubes, I could send you one of my old legs, don't know where you will get an arm though.
kbp810 Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 Yep... if you come across a bargain you have to ask yourself why are they being sold, and why are they being sold at a bargain. Usually the spit-out-your-coffee priced ones are coming from reputable dealers (or at least I would stick to reputable dealers) I do keep an eye out for old organs sitting on the side of the road, or the "get this thing out of my house" type ad on craigslist... but in the few I've come across, low and behold the tubes have already been yanked (else the organ at a whole is being sold well above the worth of the tubes on the inside). More on the organ tube thing... organs had to reproduce music clearly and consistently - so it's often said that the "best of the best" of tubes were generally used in them; best in regards to low noise and microphones. this doesn't mean that they haven't been used and abused in that organ... or that they are neccesarily going to be a diamond in the rough for cheap NOS tube goodness - but like I said, if you can find an organ for cheap and/or free with tubes intact, I would jump on it in a heartbeat; I wouldn't pay good money for it though! I did once buy a lot of 8 "Baldwin" labeled tubes that were organ pulls... 4 of them were pretty good tubes, 2 of them were noisy as could be, and 2 of them were dead. Had all 8 of them been good tubes, it would have been a great deal... instead, I only really got 4... which wasn't such a great deal. (though I suppose it could have been worse). I almost always use new production now... and if I do buy NOS, it's from a trusted source, and I make sure I'm not drinking any coffee when I pay for them!
Kuz Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 My experience was this.... A local Mom & Pop shop that I supported and are down on their luck offered me the pic of his used old 12AX7s. I got a bunch of old RCAs, Mullards, Telefunkens, and Buggle Boys. I think about 10-12 tubes for a cost of......... what for it............. yes, I said............. $5 each!!!!!!! Well, a couple were microphonic, but it was a cheap lesson in which tubes I like and in which amps. When I found out that I LOVE RCA Long Black Plate and Short Gray Plate 12AX7s, I bought two of each of these from KCA tubes. Yes these 4 tubes were equal the cost of the other 10-12 I got second hand, but the NOS ones from KCA were of MUCH better quality and worth the extra money. SO the moral of the story is .... if you can buy on the cheap to find what you like first, then pay the extra money for the better quality.
Jimbob Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 You may want to give Gregg at Hi-Test Guitars a call ( http://www.hitestguitars.com/ ). He stocks just about everything NOS, and while NOS tubes such as Mullards, Telefunkens, RCAs, Sylvanias, etc. are outrageously priced, it's quite possible to spend much less by going with Siemens, GE, or many of the less popular brands, most of which are still superior to many of the current production tubes. Gregg will match up power tubes very well, too. As Kuz said, KCA is a good place to shop as well.
Hfan Posted January 19, 2012 Author Posted January 19, 2012 There is an organ from 1977 on my local Craigs list (Wurlitzer) for $200. I can imagine my wife's reaction if I lug that thing into the house. Wonder if the organist at my church would notice if a tube or two disappeared? Nah, probably get hit with a bolt of lightning, she could probably kick my butt as well. Actually, isn't it true that V1 or the first pre amp stage is pretty much the most critical tube for tone? May be worth buying one or two from a good dealer. I hear that the old ones may also last quite a bit longer than new ones so the cost may be some what justifiable.
212Mavguy Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 I learned about 12ax7's from an article detailing a Shootout of them in Vacuum Tube Valley magazine a few years ago. That armed me with enough to get started collecting mostly used vintage tubes from ebay. I have lots now, and some came at screaming deals for what they are and do. Harder to find those diamonds in the rough on eBay now, but they are still there, in much less abundance than even 3 years ago. I was given a nice tester by a friend and that has been helpful for the preamp tubes, not so much for the power tubes. Power tubes are more difficult to buy well by far. But I have discovered some real secret weapon alternatives for 6l6 and el84 that are still very affordable. My tube collecting is slowed to nearly a standstill, but if I see something that looks right on the 'Bay, I'll swoop in like a hovering buzzard...FWOOSH!
Jimbob Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 Ebay can be kind of a crapshoot for tubes, but I think I've done better than worse there as far as preamp tubes are concerned. I've purchased a few used Amperex Bugle Boys where sellers have claimed they tested well, and they were generally correct. Once in a while I'll get a bad one, but if they test strong, chances are very good that they'll sound good as well as lasting for a long period of time.
Trouble Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 Hey guys, what about old reel to reel recording gear? I've got some old recording equip. from the '80's that was given to me. It was high dollar stuff then but a 16 track digital board will do what all that crap will do and it doesn't take up a whole room, but I bet there are some tubes in there somwhere.
wdelaney72 Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 I've been doing the amp-building thing for a long time.....NOS Power tubes are the tough ones. By nature, their lifespan is shorter than 12AX7 and I personally believe the gap between current production v. NOS is narrower with power tubes. NOS Power tubes are the ones that are picked over and tough to find....especially if you're looking at matched quads for 100W builds. They're available, but you're gonna pay lots. Preamp tubes are a different story...current production 12AX7 tubes....they suck...period. Sonically, they don't have it...and they don't have the durability...period. If you play regularly, you'll get 1-2 years before they go. The 60's-70's tubes will last for decades. They just haven't built 'em like the used to....nor do I think they ever will. Keep in mind, current production tubes are built in 4 factories throughout the world. Yet, there are many more brands out there....that should send off an obvious red flag. 1) China - Shuguang....and any other tabed labeled "Made In China" are all manufactured in the same plant....GT, Ruby...doesn't matter. 2) Slovak Republic - JJ tubes made here 3) St. Petersburg, Russia - SED or =C= 4) Saratov, Russia - New Sensor (Mike Matthews)- This is the factory that produces ALL of the various re-issues (Gold Lion, Mullard, Tung-Sol, Svetlana, as well as "Sovtek", "ElectroHarmonix" and other brands. Most of these are all centered around marketing...I'm sure many will have their own opinions. Here's mine: 1) Shuguang - Used to be good, but after the 11th gen EL34, they thinned their glass envelope and now are shit. Not sure if they changed their KT66 quality, these used tobe really good. Pre-amp tubes have lots of gain and some like them, but durability a question...1-2 years tops. 2) JJ - Decent tone, but durability nothing spicial. Many like in Fenders. If I'm building an amp for someone and they don't wish to invest in high quality NOS preamp tubes, I'll use these. 3) =C= - My #1 choice for EL34 or 6L6...but they are more expensive. Worth every penny. 4) I like the EH 6CA7...it has good tone and is very durable....I've heard good things about Gold Lion KT66, but never played. I'd spend the extra $$ on =C= Preamp tubes....all of these are below quality of NOS Now to answer the original question on NOS....NOS preamp tubes are available...if you buy from a reputable source, they can be had for $30-$60 per tube....think about that for a second. Most current production are anywere from $10-$25....Considering these tubes last 10x longer and sound 100x better, they're worth the extra money and then some.... I have no relationship or setup with my source...I've just had good experience over the years and he knows his stuff. His name is Terry Kilgore (aka TubeTramp). He's the best source for NOS preamp tubes. He's honest, knowledgable, and reasonably priced. terry_kilgore2003 @ yahoo dot com
Hfan Posted January 22, 2012 Author Posted January 22, 2012 I've been doing the amp-building thing for a long time.....NOS Power tubes are the tough ones. By nature, their lifespan is shorter than 12AX7 and I personally believe the gap between current production v. NOS is narrower with power tubes. NOS Power tubes are the ones that are picked over and tough to find....especially if you're looking at matched quads for 100W builds. They're available, but you're gonna pay lots. Preamp tubes are a different story...current production 12AX7 tubes....they suck...period. Sonically, they don't have it...and they don't have the durability...period. If you play regularly, you'll get 1-2 years before they go. The 60's-70's tubes will last for decades. They just haven't built 'em like the used to....nor do I think they ever will. Keep in mind, current production tubes are built in 4 factories throughout the world. Yet, there are many more brands out there....that should send off an obvious red flag. 1) China - Shuguang....and any other tabed labeled "Made In China" are all manufactured in the same plant....GT, Ruby...doesn't matter. 2) Slovak Republic - JJ tubes made here 3) St. Petersburg, Russia - SED or =C= 4) Saratov, Russia - New Sensor (Mike Matthews)- This is the factory that produces ALL of the various re-issues (Gold Lion, Mullard, Tung-Sol, Svetlana, as well as "Sovtek", "ElectroHarmonix" and other brands. Most of these are all centered around marketing...I'm sure many will have their own opinions. Here's mine: 1) Shuguang - Used to be good, but after the 11th gen EL34, they thinned their glass envelope and now are shit. Not sure if they changed their KT66 quality, these used tobe really good. Pre-amp tubes have lots of gain and some like them, but durability a question...1-2 years tops. 2) JJ - Decent tone, but durability nothing spicial. Many like in Fenders. If I'm building an amp for someone and they don't wish to invest in high quality NOS preamp tubes, I'll use these. 3) =C= - My #1 choice for EL34 or 6L6...but they are more expensive. Worth every penny. 4) I like the EH 6CA7...it has good tone and is very durable....I've heard good things about Gold Lion KT66, but never played. I'd spend the extra $$ on =C= Preamp tubes....all of these are below quality of NOS Now to answer the original question on NOS....NOS preamp tubes are available...if you buy from a reputable source, they can be had for $30-$60 per tube....think about that for a second. Most current production are anywere from $10-$25....Considering these tubes last 10x longer and sound 100x better, they're worth the extra money and then some.... I have no relationship or setup with my source...I've just had good experience over the years and he knows his stuff. His name is Terry Kilgore (aka TubeTramp). He's the best source for NOS preamp tubes. He's honest, knowledgable, and reasonably priced. terry_kilgore2003 @ yahoo dot com Wdelaney72, thanks for that informative post. Am I correct in saying that for someone on a budget, getting a good quality V1 pre amp tube (assuming Fender circuitry) or 1 st preamp stage, is a way to get good bang for the buck? Or more to the point, where is it ok to scrimp a little on quality?
Kuz Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 V1 will always be the TONE tube, BUT it depends on the amp circuit for the others. The reverb send and return tubes can make a big difference. The Phase Inverter tube can make a difference. The only tube that doesn't matter in terms of tone is the Tremelo tube. I have noticed huge difference on tha 12AT7 (reverb tube) V2 and Phase Inverter BUT in general the tubes that will effect the tone the most are starting on V1 and then becoming less noticible to the Phase Inverter (last preamp tube). This is because V1 to V2 to V3..... the tone cascades down the chain of preamp tubes (the exception is the Tremelo tube, and only if it is a Tremelo only tube. The tube has no tone value it just powers the vibrato/tremelo). It may be helpful if you tell us which amp or amps that you want to put NOS preamp tubes in.
Fernando Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 That's it? Four places? Wow. That really makes me wonder: isn't there space for one more good quality tube manufacturer somewhere? Does anyone have any idea how difficult/complicated/complex/feasible it would be to make something like that happen here? What would the obstacles be? Labor? Tools and machines? Red tape? Raw materials? Know how?
Kuz Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 Wdelaney72, thanks for that informative post. Am I correct in saying that for someone on a budget, getting a good quality V1 pre amp tube (assuming Fender circuitry) or 1 st preamp stage, is a way to get good bang for the buck? Or more to the point, where is it ok to scrimp a little on quality? OK, I just read where you said a Fender circuit. Slider13 (Mike) has taught me a lot about preamp tubes for Fenders, but which Fender circuit. A Super Reverb, Deluxe Reverb, Vibrolux Reverb, Twin Reverb, Princeton Reverb...... these all LOVE RCA 12AX7A (short gray plate) tubes in V1. If you only buy one tube, I would buy a good quality RCA 12AX7A and put it in V1 and be prepared to fall over. Here is where I get mine from, doesn't mean you have to but KCA Tubes checks all of there tubes not only in a tube tester but in a REAL amp as well. I buy their slightly used preamp tubes and they test out as new. I don't trust ebay, just me... http://www.kcanostubes.com/content/anos-rca-12ax7a
wdelaney72 Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 v1 will have the most impact.....as pointed out, which v1 varies on circuit, but as a geneal rule, this is the most important place. 12AT7 is very common for FX loops and other places, as these are lower gain than 12AX7. One thing to consider as an alternative is a 5751 tube. This is lower gain, but sonically more like a 12AX7 compared to 12AT7. I love 5751 tubes. I play Marshall based circuits and I've been using the following v1) Sylvania 12AX7 v2) GE 12AX7 v3) RFT Ideally, the 80's produced TESLA (not JJ) short plates were my favorite for v3, but these have gotten insanely expensive, so I make due with RFT.
Hfan Posted January 22, 2012 Author Posted January 22, 2012 responding to Kuz...quote didn't take.. Thanks Kuz. So you have a tube tester? That would be handy to have around for those days when you are trying to diagnose a problem. Will google that and look into it. And yes, I'm talking about Fender circuits. Old Twin Reverb, KBP reverb deluxe (blackface Deluxe) and Blues Jr.
Kuz Posted January 22, 2012 Posted January 22, 2012 responding to Kuz...quote didn't take.. Thanks Kuz. So you have a tube tester? That would be handy to have around for those days when you are trying to diagnose a problem. Will google that and look into it. And yes, I'm talking about Fender circuits. Old Twin Reverb, KBP reverb deluxe (blackface Deluxe) and Blues Jr. No I don't have a tube tester. When I said KCA's tubes come back tested as new, I meant that KCA only marks their tubes NOS if they really are NOS never used. Mike at KCA will mark his tubes gently used where most others would call them NOS. Mike has told me most of his used tubes come out testing as new (both on the tube tester and the amp test). Again, I would buy one good old RCA 12AX7A and put it in V1 and then save for a decent 12AT7 or 5751
Hfan Posted January 22, 2012 Author Posted January 22, 2012 Thought I'd do an e bay search for tube testers. This popped up, thought I found the mother lode but doesn't seem to be many "guitar amp tubes" that I can recognise anyway. May not be a bad deal with the tester an all for someone who has the time to sort out 340 tubes. http://www.ebay.com/itm/340-RCA-VINTAGE-VACUUM-TUBES-REPAIRMANS-CHEST-CONTINENTAL-II-MU150-TUBE-TESTER-/280807708194?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4161719622
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.