Great Bogner Shiva vs Axe-Fx Shiva shoot out

[knopfler74]

 

 

Pete Thorn also uses it live. In fact, he's touring with one at this very moment. He gets great tones from it. My only 'wonder' is if it's just as strong for less processed tones, meaning, less chorus, less delay, etc...

If I slap enough chorus and delay on my waves GTR plug in, I get it to sound insanely good.

[JeffB]

 

 

Whoa - at the end of clip 2 and even if it isn't the really amp, it sounds better and your playing at the end is full of passion. That's as good of a solo as I've ever heard you play, John. Phew - nice stuff. I'm gonna go listen to 2 again now.

Yeah thats the part..

[JeffB]

when will we get there? is it tonight yet? How much longer?

[yoslate]

 

But you won't be giggin with it... Its purely a recording tool... I seriously doubt its good for stage use....

 

I have an acquaintance, through the shop, who's a metal player in a pretty successful act. He tours the U.S. and Europe constantly, and he began using an Axe-Fx (with a 2x12 cab) about a year ago. He says he wouldn't go on the road with anything else, now.

[mars_hall]

Look at the two spectrum plots for John's song. To make it easier, above 6KHz the contents is actually identical for the two renditions, so you can focus on what is there below 6K.

 

For version one you see maybe 5 peaks. For version two, you see many more individual peaks. Version 1 is quieter in overall gain than version 2, but I would say/guess the natural quality of version two comes from the extra detail created by the individual spectrum peaks.

 

 

I ran these plots after voting earlier today, just to see if there was a measurable difference that could be extracted from the renditions. Looks like there might be. Ideally, John could have recorded both versions simultaneously so any differences in dynamics of the background tracks and personal attack would not be there to skew the results. Maybe he did.

[DetroitBlues]

I have an acquaintance, through the shop, who's a metal player in a pretty successful act. He tours the U.S. and Europe constantly, and he began using an Axe-Fx (with a 2x12 cab) about a year ago. He says he wouldn't go on the road with anything else, now.

 

And we are talking professional musicians with road/travel crews.... I'm talking about everyday axe slingers at the local hot spots... Those guys are not going to take a very expensive piece of rack gear on a stage. Guess I should of suggested the everyday working man guitar player won't gig with it....

[barrymclark]

 

And we are talking professional musicians with road/travel crews.... I'm talking about everyday axe slingers at the local hot spots... Those guys are not going to take a very expensive piece of rack gear on a stage. Guess I should of suggested the everyday working man guitar player won't gig with it....

actually...while it is cost prohibitive for many, I am seeing more and more local cover bands using this. In one case, all of the string players (guitar and bass) were using FAS gear. The bassist bought the Standard cheap off one of the guitarists. I'm also seeing smaller national acts that have very little tour support personnel and when asked about the FAS, they actually cite that it is because of the lack of techs and roadies that they started taking it on the road. The portability and ease of use helped make tours easier. I can see that.

 

Funny, the FAS is costly, but when i look at the total cost in amp heads that will do what I want, the FAS, really isn't much different more as fragile. Granted though, if you can steal 150lbs of Fryette Deliverence off the stage and get away with it... more power to ya. You're a strong man. Haha.

[Kuz]

 

But you won't be giggin with it... Its purely a recording tool... I seriously doubt its good for stage use....

 

Tell that to Dweezil Zappa and Steve Vai and Peter Thorn and Adrian Belew and Neal Schon and John Petrucci ..........

[Kuz]

 

And we are talking professional musicians with road/travel crews.... I'm talking about everyday axe slingers at the local hot spots... Those guys are not going to take a very expensive piece of rack gear on a stage. Guess I should of suggested the everyday working man guitar player won't gig with it....

 

Actually, my Bogner Shiva head plus the 2x12 cab was around $1,000-1,400 more than the Axe-Fx.

[Kuz]

THE ANSWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

1) Both tracks were recorded separately, but I mixed the overall volume on both to be nearly identical

 

2) I love my Bogner Shiva Amp, I really do.....BUT it took my 3 hours to hook up the long mic cord, find the speaker cap edge with a flashlight, where in the hell are the batteries for the flashlight, position the SM57, re-position the SM57, re-position the SM57, get out the headphones, run the extra input cords to the amp's effects loop, find the long Steiner guitar input cord, re-position the SM57, check the clipping levels, re-position the SM57, OH CRAP THE FAMILY COMES HOME IN 30MINS ONLY TIME FOR TWO TAKES AT STAGE VOLUME........... NO TIME FOR OVERDUBS!!!!

 

3) Turn on the Axe-Fx, dial up Bogner Shiva patch #32, drop in the Bogner Vintage 30 speaker cab, click SM57 1" from cap edge, turn on monitors, hit record, done. WAIT, I want to overdub ending (no problem, I'll do that tomorrow)....

 

4) I tried to capture the best tone/sound of each unit/amp, so I WAS NOT TRYING TO MAKE ONE SOUND BETTER THAN THE OTHER.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

RESULTS>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Clip #1 is.......... the REAL Bogner Shiva

 

Clip #2 is ........ Axe-Fx Bogner Shiva

[fxdx99]

You must be mistaken, John... the people have spoken and clip 2 is the real deal.

 

btw - Mark, thanks for those plots. Like the move to quantification.

[Kuz]

 

btw - Mark, thanks for those plots. Like the move to quantification.

 

Yea, Mark I REALLY do appreciate you making the plots & graphs ( I don't know what the hell they mean, but I REALLY do appreciate your extra input!!!!)

[smurph1]

I'd say 2 is probably the real amp. 1 appears more compressed.

+1..Nice Job John..

[Kuz]

 

 

Pete Thorn also uses it live. In fact, he's touring with one at this very moment. He gets great tones from it. My only 'wonder' is if it's just as strong for less processed tones, meaning, less chorus, less delay, etc...

If I slap enough chorus and delay on my waves GTR plug in, I get it to sound insanely good.

 

Actually this is where I think the Axe-Fx shines.....

 

These are all "clean" clips with the Axe-FX

 

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=10887040&q=hi&newref=1

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=10887039&q=hi&newref=1

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=10887041&q=hi&newref=1

 

 

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=9744990&q=hi&newref=1

http://www.soundclick.com/player/single_player.cfm?songid=9720495&q=hi&newref=1

[Kuz]

I think I also want to clarify the intent of this whole post and poll....

 

IT WAS NOT to show off my playing.

 

IT WAS NOT to show that tubes are superior to SS circuits.

 

IT WAS NOT to show that the AXE-FX is superior to tubes.

 

IT WAS HOWEVER, to show that some good tones can be gotten from both units!!!!!

 

If I had a vote (which I didn't), I feel there is a certain complexity to the real Bogner Amp but it is VERY hard to dial that tone in. I feel with the Axe-Fx it is easier to get the tone I want. I still feel a slight difference in the dynamics of the Bogner tube amp when I play that the Axe-Fx has a lot of, but not all of it. Supposedly, the AXE-FX II does have more of the tube amp feel. For what I do, I prefer the Axe-Fx for recording, NO QUESTION 100% for me. But for playing live, I still would have a great tube amp and the Axe-Fx as a back-up.

 

As a final note, my last church gig on Sunday, right before service began at sound check, my tube amp (Headstrong 'lil King) suddenly cut out!!!!! ARGH!!!!! I jiggled the tubes and it came back on, but don't think I didn't consider going FULL AXE-FX, even LIVE for reliability, I got over it and I am back to tubes for LIVE playing!!!

 

I truly hope everyone enjoyed the true nature of these clips and the poll!!!!!

[smurph1]

Yeah..I enjoyed it..Didn't convince me to go out and buy an Axe-Fx...But it is amazing what they can do nowadays..They've come a long way from the early Line 6 days.. But I ain't selling my KBP 810 any time soon..LOL

[yoslate]

Told you I always get this shit wrong!!! Good job, John...real good!

[barrymclark]

So far I'm 2 for 2 on these! There was another on the FAS forums.

 

In each case I preferred the tone of the Axe-FX but was able to pick the real one out. This is what makes this so, so tough for me. One day, I want my Cadillac amp to with my Cadillac guitars. I got some time yet before I can afford to make a decision but it comes downnto three amps vs an AxeFx rig. In every case I prefer the little things in the sound of the AxeFX over about anything else.

 

Who knows, when I've the dough, I might be one of the Fractal faithful. I'd just have to figure out the rest of the rug such as power amp and speakers.

[knopfler74]

Happy I guessed correctly, and I stress, guessed. Also happy this comparison was done. I feel like I learned something! What did I learn? Axe FX sounds GOOOOD, Bogner sounds GOOOOD, AND the most imporatant part....

I LOVE PLAYING AND LISTENING TO GUITAR!!!

[Steiner]

Look at the two spectrum plots for John's song. To make it easier, above 6KHz the contents is actually identical for the two renditions, so you can focus on what is there below 6K.

 

For version one you see maybe 5 peaks. For version two, you see many more individual peaks. Version 1 is quieter in overall gain than version 2, but I would say/guess the natural quality of version two comes from the extra detail created by the individual spectrum peaks.

 

 

I ran these plots after voting earlier today, just to see if there was a measurable difference that could be extracted from the renditions. Looks like there might be. Ideally, John could have recorded both versions simultaneously so any differences in dynamics of the background tracks and personal attack would not be there to skew the results. Maybe he did.

 

 

 

Very nice work!

[yoslate]

 

I LOVE PLAYING AND LISTENING TO GUITAR!!!

 

 

At least I have this, too....

[JeffB]

I think I also want to clarify the intent of this whole post and poll....

 

IT WAS NOT to show off my playing.

 

IT WAS NOT to show that tubes are superior to SS circuits.

 

IT WAS NOT to show that the AXE-FX is superior to tubes.

 

IT WAS HOWEVER, to show that some good tones can be gotten from both units!!!!!

 

If I had a vote (which I didn't), I feel there is a certain complexity to the real Bogner Amp but it is VERY hard to dial that tone in. I feel with the Axe-Fx it is easier to get the tone I want. I still feel a slight difference in the dynamics of the Bogner tube amp when I play that the Axe-Fx has a lot of, but not all of it. Supposedly, the AXE-FX II does have more of the tube amp feel. For what I do, I prefer the Axe-Fx for recording, NO QUESTION 100% for me. But for playing live, I still would have a great tube amp and the Axe-Fx as a back-up.

 

As a final note, my last church gig on Sunday, right before service began at sound check, my tube amp (Headstrong 'lil King) suddenly cut out!!!!! ARGH!!!!! I jiggled the tubes and it came back on, but don't think I didn't consider going FULL AXE-FX, even LIVE for reliability, I got over it and I am back to tubes for LIVE playing!!!

 

I truly hope everyone enjoyed the true nature of these clips and the poll!!!!!

I really enjoyed the whole thread. I think you would laugh if you knew how many times I listened to each clip, rewinding over certain parts really listening to subtle nuances of the sound.

I voted straight up that I didnt know which was which but liked tr2. But kept listening to both tracks through the day.

I think after all that time I was starting to zero in on track one as the Bogner, more specifically that it was a mic'ed up V30. I really dont like V30s close mic'ed, too gritty at low volumes.

But that never changed that I liked tr2 better and the time it took me to get to that point really shows how good the axefx is and how at the end of it it doesnt matter what you use to capture a sound.

 

I dont think V30s are the best speaker for quieter recording, Ive spent lots of time moving an sm57 around them to try and capture an at home sound and always find that theres a gritty'ness and focus in the sound that isnt in the room sound. I actually found a speaker like the mesa c90, which I dont really like, doesnt bring the grit so much with it and has an open ness to it. Another is the Celestion G100 which brings out the smoothness and creamyness with out the grit.

 

Thanks for taking the time to do this Kuz. It was fun and interesting. I like to get ocd about stuff like this.

[DetroitBlues]

 

Tell that to Dweezil Zappa and Steve Vai and Peter Thorn and Adrian Belew and Neal Schon and John Petrucci ..........

 

And they are touring professionals that pay a fortune for roadies to do all the setup for them. You can bet they have more than two rack mount units and a real amp for backup...

[JeffB]

 

And they are touring professionals that pay a fortune for roadies to do all the setup for them. You can bet they have more than two rack mount units and a real amp for backup...

@DB....stop mang. I have two customers that gig with their axefx. They do the same pub gigs and functions I do. Smaller gigs and what ever comes their way. Weddings, parties anything. They have no roadies and set up their own pa's and gear.

It really isnt just touring acts. Go to the gear page and see how common it is for people to be using the AxeFX in all sorts of situations.

It isnt a big out lay of cash, no more than a lot of nice tube amps and a cab and a few stomps.

There are a lot of clips on youtube from smaller gig bands where the guitarist is using anAxeFX unit.

[Kuz]

 

And they are touring professionals that pay a fortune for roadies to do all the setup for them. You can bet they have more than two rack mount units and a real amp for backup...

 

Sorry, if I have upset you Detroit, I REALLY have never meant to. As Jeff (Tully) said they are not uncommon for cover band guitarist.

 

Again, maybe some missed the point of this whole thread, and I wasn't trying to show which was better. I like the way Jeff put it " ... how at the end of it it doesnt matter what you use to capture a sound." Which was exactly what I was trying to show.... that great tones can come from amps & modelers!!!