Great Bogner Shiva vs Axe-Fx Shiva shoot out

[Kuz]

Happy I guessed correctly, and I stress, guessed. Also happy this comparison was done. I feel like I learned something! What did I learn? Axe FX sounds GOOOOD, Bogner sounds GOOOOD, AND the most imporatant part....

I LOVE PLAYING AND LISTENING TO GUITAR!!!

 

Amen, Brother. That's what it's ALL ABOUT!!!!!!

[LK155]

 

 

 

 

Gonna jump in and demonstrate my own ignorance on technical issues here....................

 

This is fascinating. Where is all the audio content between 10khz and 14khz coming from? The backing track?

The reason I ask is that I can't imagine the guitar is providing these frequencies. Certainly some overtones, but those graphs seem to indicate signigicant signal level at those frequencies.

 

If the open low E string is 80hz, one octave up is 160hz, another octave up (the open top E string) is 320hz, another octave up (top E string at 12th fret) is 640hz, and one final octave up (top E string at 24th fret) is 1280hz, that's a long way from 14,000hz.

 

Or am I totally out to lunch here?

[mtpatty]

THE BEST THING ABOUT THE AXE-FX IS- I CAN DEVOTE ALL MY GAS TO GUITARS!

[Kuz]

Just to put some closer to the Axe-Fx playing live...

 

Advantages:

No micing, go direct into the board/PA.

Much much Lighter, no cabs to carry around. Use in-ear monitors or run the signal through your slant monitors

Smaller stage footprint

Less gear- no pedals, no amps, no cabs, no mics

Feedback is much less an issue

Consistent sound

 

Disadvanatges:

Very hard to make volume changes ( unless you have a dedicated sound man)

Editing of effects needs to go through laptop

Monitors are required

 

That said I am sticking to my tube amps for live situations

[Kuz]

I really enjoyed the whole thread. I think you would laugh if you knew how many times I listened to each clip, rewinding over certain parts really listening to subtle nuances of the sound.

I voted straight up that I didnt know which was which but liked tr2. But kept listening to both tracks through the day.

I think after all that time I was starting to zero in on track one as the Bogner, more specifically that it was a mic'ed up V30. I really dont like V30s close mic'ed, too gritty at low volumes.

But that never changed that I liked tr2 better and the time it took me to get to that point really shows how good the axefx is and how at the end of it it doesnt matter what you use to capture a sound.

 

I dont think V30s are the best speaker for quieter recording, Ive spent lots of time moving an sm57 around them to try and capture an at home sound and always find that theres a gritty'ness and focus in the sound that isnt in the room sound. I actually found a speaker like the mesa c90, which I dont really like, doesnt bring the grit so much with it and has an open ness to it. Another is the Celestion G100 which brings out the smoothness and creamyness with out the grit.

 

Thanks for taking the time to do this Kuz. It was fun and interesting. I like to get ocd about stuff like this.

 

I agree that Vintage 30s suck! Too bright, too scooped, and too buzzy!

 

I am going to look into getting some EVM 12Ls..... Then it's closer Larry Carlton and Robben Ford tone, I hope!!!

[barrymclark]

Just to put some closer to the Axe-Fx playing live...

 

Advantages:

No micing, go direct into the board/PA.

Much much Lighter, no cabs to carry around. Use in-ear monitors or run the signal through your slant monitors

Smaller stage footprint

Less gear- no pedals, no amps, no cabs, no mics

Feedback is much less an issue

Consistent sound

 

Disadvanatges:

Very hard to make volume changes ( unless you have a dedicated sound man)

Editing of effects needs to go through laptop

Monitors are required

 

That said I am sticking to my tube amps for live situations

Couldn't you assign an expression pedal to control volume? Sure... it'd be different... but would this work? I'd assume you could set it up in a patch.

[yoslate]

 

Gonna jump in and demonstrate my own ignorance on technical issues here....................

 

This is fascinating. Where is all the audio content between 10khz and 14khz coming from? The backing track?

The reason I ask is that I can't imagine the guitar is providing these frequencies. Certainly some overtones, but those graphs seem to indicate signigicant signal level at those frequencies.

 

If the open low E string is 80hz, one octave up is 160hz, another octave up (the open top E string) is 320hz, another octave up (top E string at 12th fret) is 640hz, and one final octave up (top E string at 24th fret) is 1280hz, that's a long way from 14,000hz.

 

Or am I totally out to lunch here?

 

Good question, Lyle. I was working on re-mixing an old session the past two days, and one of the problems was the recording of my guitar. Not sure what was going on with the amps or mics...or what, but I wasn't happy with what was originally recorded. But I did notice, in looking at the real-time graphic of what my guitar was producing, most of what was there (given that a lot of what I was doing was comping and rhythm playing), and needed EQ'ing, was between 100Hz and 2K Hz. That was where most of our tweezing was done. Sure there was higher end, but where the real action occurred (or in some cases didn't) was in the aforementioned space. I think anything above 5K is pretty hard ot put a finger on. But my experience is limited.

[DetroitBlues]

 

Sorry, if I have upset you Detroit, I REALLY have never meant to. As Jeff (Tully) said they are not uncommon for cover band guitarist.

 

Again, maybe some missed the point of this whole thread, and I wasn't trying to show which was better. I like the way Jeff put it " ... how at the end of it it doesn't matter what you use to capture a sound." Which was exactly what I was trying to show.... that great tones can come from amps & modelers!!!

 

I was actually believing I was ticking everyone else off. Axe-FX is really nice, there is no doubt about it. You have more than proven just how great it sounds and what its capable of. I just think it is expensive, and I have a fear of reliability with amp/effect processors. They also have a shelf life, just like a computer. After a couple of years, with all that money spent on the unit, it will be near worthless, as the next latest and greatest model replaces it. Just look at all the used multi-effects units over the years that cost hundreds, but now worth less than $50. Don't get my wrong, tube amps can be an issue too, but if a tube amp craps the bed, it can be fixed, usually by someone locally if its something other than a tube. They retain some value, granted they are kept serviceable. But devices such as Axe-Fx or any lower model floor multi-effects type pedals have to be sent of for repair, you really can't service them. Perhaps, I'm just being too old school about it (even though I may be one of the youngest in our forum). So if you are using a rack mount amp/cab simulator like Axe-Fx, you should have a back up just in case. You may have another rack mount unit, you may have an amp, you may have a floor stomp box multi-effects as your backup. I guess I would be fearful of having the unit crash, having it stolen, or damaged. I suppose I find there is some comfort in a tube amp. I've had several multi-effects units, abet none of them as nice as Axe-Fx. I wouldn't use any of them over a real tube amp. I do have a Line 6 Pocket Pod ready to use as backup to run into a PA just in case.

[barrymclark]

 

I was actually believing I was ticking everyone else off. Axe-FX is really nice, there is no doubt about it. You have more than proven just how great it sounds and what its capable of. I just think it is expensive, and I have a fear of reliability with amp/effect processors. They also have a shelf life, just like a computer. After a couple of years, with all that money spent on the unit, it will be near worthless, as the next latest and greatest model replaces it. Just look at all the used multi-effects units over the years that cost hundreds, but now worth less than $50. Don't get my wrong, tube amps can be an issue too, but if a tube amp craps the bed, it can be fixed, usually by someone locally if its something other than a tube. They retain some value, granted they are kept serviceable. But devices such as Axe-Fx or any lower model floor multi-effects type pedals have to be sent of for repair, you really can't service them. Perhaps, I'm just being too old school about it (even though I may be one of the youngest in our forum). So if you are using a rack mount amp/cab simulator like Axe-Fx, you should have a back up just in case. You may have another rack mount unit, you may have an amp, you may have a floor stomp box multi-effects as your backup. I guess I would be fearful of having the unit crash, having it stolen, or damaged. I suppose I find there is some comfort in a tube amp. I've had several multi-effects units, abet none of them as nice as Axe-Fx. I wouldn't use any of them over a real tube amp. I do have a Line 6 Pocket Pod ready to use as backup to run into a PA just in case.

I totally get what you are saying... but playing devil's advocate, if our tube amps broke... wouldn't we be without them while getting repaired and have to rely on a back up of some sort? Not trying to convince you either way. Just see it as a debate and I am playing counter-point. From what I have read, there are some Axe-Fx's that need to get sent out for repair but it isn't common as they are expertly made, from what I understand, inside and out here in the US. Most issues with these are fixed with patches that are downloadable. Either way, it is always a good idea for a gigging guitarist to have a back up. ALWAYS. That being said, if I had a FAS AxeFX, I would probably have a Line6 POD HD Pro as a less expensive back up or at least an alternative while the Axe-FX is getting repaired. That is just good sense by any gigging musician.

 

It really is, from my perspective, an either/or thing. Sometimes shit just happens... and sometimes it happens to your shit. haha. From a cost perspective, in total, the cost of a Fractal and a POD HD Pro, together is about $3k or a little more. Can easily toss in another grand for a power amp and cab. Maybe more. We'll just say $2k for fun. So... in total you are looking at a little over $5k. Throw in a midi controller and expression pedals and you might be pushing $6k.

 

That's a lot of dough!

 

Now, lets talk amps. Lets say.... really good handwired tube amps. Let's say you want a jazz amp, a rock/blues amp and a hard rock/metal amp. If you want to impress the folks, you are looking around a grand for the jazz amp, probably around $1500 for a rock/blues amp and upwards of around $4k for a metal amp for the head and 412. Understand, I am talking cadillac stuff here. Sure it can get more expensive but I am talking brands commonly gotten by normal people like Fryette, Two-Rock and so on. We are at around 6k without a back up. Getting even a cheaper back up for each might tag on another $2k.

 

In the end, though, you gotta go with moves you. If even a modeler of this quality doesn't do it for you, it would be a complete waste of money to get one. It does feel cheaper to get one amp at a time though! haha.

[Kuz]

Couldn't you assign an expression pedal to control volume? Sure... it'd be different... but would this work? I'd assume you could set it up in a patch.

 

Yes, I believe those that use the Axe-Fx live, control the volume with an expression pedal. You can also put a virtual clean boost eq or pedal in the chain to bump the volume for leads.

 

But tweaking on the fly live, is more difficult than just turning a knob on the amp or pedal.

[barrymclark]

Yes, I believe those that use the Axe-Fx live, control the volume with an expression pedal. You can also put a virtual clean boost eq or pedal in the chain to bump the volume for leads.

 

But tweaking on the fly live, is more difficult than just turning a knob on the amp or pedal.

Oh yeah... I never do that. haha. Seriously. Once I get it set pre-show, that is it. All control is by volume knob, tone knob and toggle switch.

[Kuz]

 

Gonna jump in and demonstrate my own ignorance on technical issues here....................

 

This is fascinating. Where is all the audio content between 10khz and 14khz coming from? The backing track?

The reason I ask is that I can't imagine the guitar is providing these frequencies. Certainly some overtones, but those graphs seem to indicate signigicant signal level at those frequencies.

 

If the open low E string is 80hz, one octave up is 160hz, another octave up (the open top E string) is 320hz, another octave up (top E string at 12th fret) is 640hz, and one final octave up (top E string at 24th fret) is 1280hz, that's a long way from 14,000hz.

 

Or am I totally out to lunch here?

 

I have no idea what you engineers are talking about!!!! LOL

 

And people accuse the Axe-Fx as being difficult to understand!!! Ha, ha

 

I don't understand those charts, graphs, or 14,0000hz..... I just mixed it the same so the little meter doesn't light up, so itsn't clipping!!!

I am more about pretty colors of the blinking lights than E string 1280hz..... Ha, ha....

[Kuz]

Oh yeah... I never do that. haha. Seriously. Once I get it set pre-show, that is it. All control is by volume knob, tone knob and toggle switch.

 

Really, I am all over my pedals and knobs. more gain, less tone, more volume, higher level, more delay repeats, lower mix level, ect....

 

But regardless, I think everyone will agree.... It is easy to concentrate on playing when you have YOUR tone correct and you don't have to fuss with your gear during a gig!!!!

[TalismanRich]

John, FWIW, I was really suprised when I read the result, especially after I read that you used the SM57.

 

Most of the time, I find the SM57 to drop out the top end a bit compared to what I hear live. (That's why I like the Sennheiser 835). When I heard the clips, I figured that whoever modeled it would try to add a bit of shimmer. Obviously they didn't. Having never heard either one live, it was an assumption that was obviously wrong.

 

I preferred the sound of the AXE clip, especially with my headphones. Through the Rubicon monitors it was less evident.

 

The playing on the second clip was DEFINITELY the better of the the two. The ending rocked! For me the performance will always trump the sound, every time.

 

Well done, Kuz.

[t0aj15]

I agree that Vintage 30s suck! Too bright, too scooped, and too buzzy!

 

I am going to look into getting some EVM 12Ls..... Then it's closer Larry Carlton and Robben Ford tone, I hope!!!

That's what I use with my Axe-Fx Ultra. I've been using a pair EVM 12L loaded Mesa-Thiele cabs for 12 years now, first with my Boogie Mk IV and now for the last 18 months with the Ultra. Primo sound.

[mars_hall]

 

This is fascinating. Where is all the audio content between 10khz and 14khz coming from? The backing track?

The reason I ask is that I can't imagine the guitar is providing these frequencies. Certainly some overtones, but those graphs seem to indicate signigicant signal level at those frequencies.

 

The short answer is, given the plot is identical from 6K up, it probably is the noise floor (system background noise) of John's recording and processing equipment. You see it is at a fairly low level (-57dB). Again it would be ideal to record the two versions simultaneously (Axe left and Bogner right) and have the background track set at exact center. Even then, mic placement and the choice of which mp3 compression technique used would augment/diminish some of the frequency content.

[Kuz]

 

The short answer is, given the plot is identical from 6K up, it probably is the noise floor (system background noise) of John's recording and processing equipment. You see it is at a fairly low level (-57dB). Again it would be ideal to record the two versions simultaneously (Axe left and Bogner right) and have the background track set at exact center. Even then, mic placement and the choice of which mp3 compression technique used would augment/diminish some of the frequency content.

 

SO you are saying I make a lot of noise when I am playing??? Yea, I definitely will second that!!!!

[mars_hall]

 

SO you are saying I make a lot of noise when I am playing??? Yea, I definitely will second that!!!!

Only when you are down flat on the floor ;p

[tulk1]

Late to the game on this one. and I had it backwards. Oh, well. I'd take ither one, if offered.