IMproving Tuner performance on 2nd Ed 140

[peerless]

Hi, All....

I have a beloved Heritage 140 2nd Edition from the first year they were in production. It has stock tuners, I think the Schallers. No Kidney Bean shape so, not the Grovers. Schaller hardware in general is generally very nice. I had one of the best luthers this side of the Mississippi replace the stock nut with the a bone nut and the workmanship and performance is very nice. This guitar can stay in tune through an atomic blast. It's just getting it in tune is my problem at times. The tuners either take an exaggerated turn before the string begins to respond and change pitch or a slight touch of the tuner will change the pitch quite a bit. THe mechanism is just not nice and smooth or consistent. I am not interested in replacing the tuners at this time.

 

How can I improve the tuner performance? There is a screw at the top of the tuner. Will adjusting it do anything towards improving my tuners performance?

 

I know better than to rule out how the guitar is strung. I usually play a strat and I use as few wraps as possible on each peg for my strat guitar. The wraps are a reservoir of unstretched string I learned to string the strat to stay in tune despite a heavy bar workout here and there. I know everybody strings their guitar different and has an opinion. I learned a long time ago that there are several ways one can learn to put on their strings in order to keep the instrument in tune. So rather than argue with students and clients about my way being the best, I just help them find a system that works form them and stick to it. With the Heritage I find that a 2-3 wraps is good for getting the break angle right. However sometimes, especially on the bass strings I'll only use 1 wrap just out of habit. I work hard at stretching the strings and usually the guitar stays in tune once I get it in tune. I also match the break angle of the tail piece approximately with that of the headstock. Guys, thats your staring point for determining the sweet spot of the tail piece. The sensitivity of these Schaller tuners or lack of on other occasions is driving my crazy though. It makes it really difficult to tune the guitar accurate and quickly.

If anyone has any information that can help me I would really appreciate it. Please tell me how I can adjust my tuners for best performance or any stringing techniques that may help. I'm always open to learning new ways of doing things.

 

Just an aside... Believe it or not, of all the vintage or top shelf guitars I have owned over the years (and being a bit picky about tuners) the best tuners I ever encountered were on my Goldtone GRE resonator. They were imitation grovers probably made in Korea! Man, these were the smoothest, most responsive tuners I have ever had the pleasure of using. That guitar was recently stolen from me and I am working towards replacing it. The only modifications I have done on my 140 were to replace the bridge, tailpiece and studs with Tone Pros vintage steel and aluminum. It was nice to lock everything down, I'm a big believer in preventing loss of resonance between the nut and bridge system but in hindsight the Schaller hardware is really top shelf. Especially if your into playing metal. The Aluminum TP and Gibby style bridge have lots of harmonic detail but not as much brute force heavy edge as the original Schaller hardware.

 

Thanks for ready.

 

Peerless

[smurph1]

First thing I would do is lubricate the nut slots with pencil lead or Vaseline...(Seriously) works for me..

[eljay]

what smurph said, also considering a silicon lube such as "big bends nut sauce."

[GuitArtMan]

What you are describing sounds like a poorly cut nut and binding at the nut. Do you hear any pining when you are tuning? I've never had any tuners that were sometimes really sensitive and then other times not, and Schaller is top notch stuff. Is it one string in particular or all of the strings?

[Steiner]

+1

[pegleg32]

You did not describe any "play" or looseness within the tuner mechanism. I would check for that first to see if you can rule the tuners out.

[peerless]

I do not think there is a nut problem. It sounds like a nut problem but as far as I can tell the nut checks out. I lubricate the nut, years ago with a type of graphite and now just chap stick. I can do bends behind the nut and there are no tuning problems. Actually, I use the fact that bending the strings behind the nut will not effect tuning as a benchmark that the nut is ok. Also, pulling up on the strings from the fretboard as if you were stretching the strings will not detune the string once stretched. Once in tune the guitar rarely (I never say never) goes out of tune while from bending. Also, the tuners have behaved this way across two nuts the original and the newer bone nut. My first stock not pinged and I worked on it however I made the high E and B slots too deep and had to replace it. This was about 5 years ago when learning to work on nuts. A really experienced tech replaced the nut and there is no pinging. Unless you can give me some other way to check the nut I think I have pretty much ruled that out. I don't feel the normal binding that one would when the string catches at the nut. The problem seems to be in the tuner mechanism. As far as looseness with the tuner mechanism, the posts are loose to various degrees in some of the shafts. I have never been happy about this. It seems like these shafts should not be loose for increased sound transfer but I have seen loose shafts on so many guitars I just don't know. How can I fix that? Again, what does turning the screw atop the tuner do? Some tuners are more sensitive than others regarding the problem but I have not mapped it out. Frankly the guitar is usually in tune. My low E is the most sensitive. The D strings is the least--I may do about a half turn before I feel the strings respond. Its the response of the D string which I would like to work out.

If it is a nut problem how do I determine that for sure. Again, there is good lubrication, slots are not deep at all, no pinging sounds or binding behavior other than described, and pressing hard on the strings behind the nut will not change tuning. ONce in tune, bending while not knock the guitar out of tune in most cases.

Some of the tuner posts are loose in the slots.

What does the screw atop the tuner do?

 

Thanks for your responses. I willl go and re-recheck everything I said about the nut. Bone in genreal is much more 'sticky' than other nut materials even if it does sound good. Ever look at a bone nut under a microscope? There are these prickly or spikey things in perfect position to bind a string. Not smooth at all. I heard this frrom Bill Nash and checked it out myself,

[pegleg32]

I realize you said you didn't want to replace the tuners, but I can think of no easier fix.

[DetroitBlues]

I do not think there is a nut problem. It sounds like a nut problem but as far as I can tell the nut checks out. I lubricate the nut, years ago with a type of graphite and now just chap stick. I can do bends behind the nut and there are no tuning problems. Actually, I use the fact that bending the strings behind the nut will not effect tuning as a benchmark that the nut is ok. Also, pulling up on the strings from the fretboard as if you were stretching the strings will not detune the string once stretched. Once in tune the guitar rarely (I never say never) goes out of tune while from bending. Also, the tuners have behaved this way across two nuts the original and the newer bone nut. My first stock not pinged and I worked on it however I made the high E and B slots too deep and had to replace it. This was about 5 years ago when learning to work on nuts. A really experienced tech replaced the nut and there is no pinging. Unless you can give me some other way to check the nut I think I have pretty much ruled that out. I don't feel the normal binding that one would when the string catches at the nut. The problem seems to be in the tuner mechanism. As far as looseness with the tuner mechanism, the posts are loose to various degrees in some of the shafts. I have never been happy about this. It seems like these shafts should not be loose for increased sound transfer but I have seen loose shafts on so many guitars I just don't know. How can I fix that? Again, what does turning the screw atop the tuner do? Some tuners are more sensitive than others regarding the problem but I have not mapped it out. Frankly the guitar is usually in tune. My low E is the most sensitive. The D strings is the least--I may do about a half turn before I feel the strings respond. Its the response of the D string which I would like to work out.

If it is a nut problem how do I determine that for sure. Again, there is good lubrication, slots are not deep at all, no pinging sounds or binding behavior other than described, and pressing hard on the strings behind the nut will not change tuning. ONce in tune, bending while not knock the guitar out of tune in most cases.

Some of the tuner posts are loose in the slots.

What does the screw atop the tuner do?

 

Thanks for your responses. I willl go and re-recheck everything I said about the nut. Bone in genreal is much more 'sticky' than other nut materials even if it does sound good. Ever look at a bone nut under a microscope? There are these prickly or spikey things in perfect position to bind a string. Not smooth at all. I heard this frrom Bill Nash and checked it out myself,

 

Sounds like your tuner gears are just wearing out. Just replace them. On some tuners, you can get inside them and clean them out. However, if they are sealed, I don't think you can. But I believe you are describing the gears not catching, so replacing them would be your best option.

[peerless]

 

Sounds like your tuner gears are just wearing out. Just replace them. On some tuners, you can get inside them and clean them out. However, if they are sealed, I don't think you can. But I believe you are describing the gears not catching, so replacing them would be your best option.

 

 

You may be right. I'll pursue this. What do you think about loose posts? Isn't this a bad thing? Is their a way to correct it? Also, with the Schaller tuners what does the screw on top due? I read in a repair manual that in some tuners this will change the degree to which the tuner operates. I gotta pull the book to get the exact quote. All my strats have loose posts though and my Heritage does too. SOme are, some are not. THis can;t be a good thing regarding tone. For example if there is play in a whammy bar of a strat (and their usually is, I use plumbers tape to try to help) you lose tone as soon as you touch it.

I have been playing the 140 a lot more lately. I go back and fourth between this guitar and a strat. (Somebody stole my beloved resonator). That stings because I can't afford to replace it for a long time. I'm a Evidence Audio and Bare Knuckle Dealer and business is not good for me right now. I sold my company and .com and moved on. Mostly teaching now. I still have all my vendors and I have a lot but I really do not know what to do at this point. I can't afford the startup on a storefront. I was closing a deal when my mom had a stroke. THat made everything fall through because I'm here primary caregiver now. SHe doesn't know who I am half the time unless I am playing guitar. Its funny like that. The guy who bought my company took some hits for poor customer service. THats sad because I had it down in that department.

[peerless]

You may be right. I'll pursue this. What do you think about loose posts? Isn't this a bad thing? Is their a way to correct it? Also, with the Schaller tuners what does the screw on top due? I read in a repair manual that in some tuners this will change the degree to which the tuner operates. I gotta pull the book to get the exact quote. All my strats have loose posts though and my Heritage does too. SOme are, some are not. THis can;t be a good thing regarding tone. For example if there is play in a whammy bar of a strat (and their usually is, I use plumbers tape to try to help) you lose tone as soon as you touch it.

I have been playing the 140 a lot more lately. I go back and fourth between this guitar and a strat. (Somebody stole my beloved resonator). That stings because I can't afford to replace it for a long time. I'm a Evidence Audio and Bare Knuckle Dealer and business is not good for me right now. I sold my company and .com and moved on. Mostly teaching now. I still have all my vendors and I have a lot but I really do not know what to do at this point. I can't afford the startup on a storefront. I was closing a deal when my mom had a stroke. THat made everything fall through because I'm here primary caregiver now. SHe doesn't know who I am half the time unless I am playing guitar. Its funny like that. The guy who bought my company took some hits for poor customer service. THats sad because I had it down in that department.