Why is the HFT-445 laminate?

[unikh550]

Know that the 445 has a solid top, but why didn't Heritage give it at least a solid back to compete with the Martin D-18 and Gibson J-45? Sides wouldn't matter because the sound differential would be very minute. The laminate sides on it might also give more structural integrity than a thin layer of solid wood. Wish that my H-550 had been given laminate sides because I leaned too hard down on it with the cord in while leaning over to pick something up and caved in the jack (since repaired).

The 2012 Vintage Guide has them valued in EXC at around $650 high end. Is this really accurate? Would this actually entice an owner to sell, or is it fanciful thinking from a magazine? Also, since this is a good price for a good guitar, but average to high for an acoustic with lam back and sides, is it a good guitar for cutting through a banjo in bluegrass? Thanks.- Charley Bevell

[FredZepp]

In my experience.. the volume or projection of an acoustics tone mostly is determined by the top ( type of wood, thickness) and by the bracing. The solid backs/ sides help with resonance and overall tone more than volume. It's why some cedar topped guitars with laminate backs/sides can be pretty loud. As to cutting through a banjo volume, I can't say.

 

As to why Heritage elected to go that route... They may have predicted a more robust market for the price range of the 445's . Maybe they were trying to identify what the market for these would be before investing into more high end flattop manufacturing . Perhaps they liked that the laminates would make a flattop with less chance of the issues that come with solid wood.

They went through years of diversifing what they make (more guitar models, and flattops, mandolins, banjos) ,but then to cut back to what they seem to know best... and probably what sells best.

[totonka]

Here is an HFT445 in a bluegrass setting. It seems to do better than some, as good as others and worse than a few.

 

[unikh550]

Liked the video quite a bit. It has that bite, almost a snapping, percussive buzz of a sound (not fret buzzing, but good buzzing) that I like to hear in a good BG solo. Could hear it very well in the background, as well. Seems that a lot of the posters on the Martin site (UMGF.com) admire the cannons, but I love the bright, woody sound, like on that 445. Thanks.-Charley

[DetroitBlues]

Know that the 445 has a solid top, but why didn't Heritage give it at least a solid back to compete with the Martin D-18 and Gibson J-45? Sides wouldn't matter because the sound differential would be very minute. The laminate sides on it might also give more structural integrity than a thin layer of solid wood. Wish that my H-550 had been given laminate sides because I leaned too hard down on it with the cord in while leaning over to pick something up and caved in the jack (since repaired).

 

The 2012 Vintage Guide has them valued in EXC at around $650 high end. Is this really accurate? Would this actually entice an owner to sell, or is it fanciful thinking from a magazine? Also, since this is a good price for a good guitar, but average to high for an acoustic with lam back and sides, is it a good guitar for cutting through a banjo in bluegrass? Thanks.- Charley Bevell

 

That price is far from being right. The guitar is worth a lot more because it is really rare and made really well. If those could be found for that price, about every HOC member on here would have one....

[unikh550]

Thought that VG might be undervaluing it. Supposedly, they ask a couple of dozen dealers across the country what they would pay for a certain guitar. Thus, I don't think that it's from actual sales. For example, a friend of mine has an '80's Ibanez AS-200 like John Scofield plays. IN EXC, VG places it as much as $1,250. My friend laughed, and said that would be far too low... though he'd never sell it.

 

What do you think 445's go for, by the way? Reason: '70's D-18's in EXC go for $1,600-2000, and 2011 D-18's can be had for $1,600-1,800 used, sometimes a few hundred less even. That 445 on the video sounded in the same league. Is there some kind of a discounted value because of the laminate, or are they in the same price range as the D-18's from the two eras? Thanks.- Charley Bevell

[FredZepp]

In Feb 2012 there was one in excellent condition for $950 and was for sale for months .. it was mentioned that a couple of years ago they went for $800 but it was still an ok deal.

Edit.. it looks like the ad is still up on CL .. it may still be for sale. http://lansing.craigslist.org/msg/2863120852.html

 

 

 

 

The VG price guide does under value things sometimes.. I do believe that it is based on sales and so if there aren't many sold, a couple of low sales drags down the price value.

 

There are still a lot of people that would have no idea what a Heritage acoustic is ...

[FredZepp]

In my price guide, it lists the HFT-445 as $650- 775..

[111518]

Re the laminate back: many fairly high end guitars in the 80s and 90s were made with laminate backs, esp. rosewood guitars but also many mahogany guitars. I've never read a full analysis of why, but my guess is that it had to do with a period when traditional supply chains for tone wood were drying up, and before the combination of improve transport and massive deforestation dumped a lot of wood on a more completely globalized market. The relatively cheap, solid rosewood guitars you see today coming out of Asia simply did not exist in the 70s/80s/90s --even high end Japanese guitars of those days were laminate bodied, except the very top-of-the-line models. The traditional American makers --there were only three major manufacturers then in the acoustic market:Martin, Gibson, Guild-- mostly stuck to solid wood, but they had to compromise, ala the D-35, which made a merit out of the lack of rosewood suitable for two piece backs, and the trend then seemed to be that the use of laminates would increase. If supplies were short, it may have been particularly hard for newer makers, like Larrivee, who made the Heritage bodies I think, to gain access to wood. My impression from those days, of course, and others may see it differently.

 

...of course the scary part of all this is that this time when the rosewood and mahogany is gone, it is gone.

[DetroitBlues]

Thought that VG might be undervaluing it. Supposedly, they ask a couple of dozen dealers across the country what they would pay for a certain guitar. Thus, I don't think that it's from actual sales. For example, a friend of mine has an '80's Ibanez AS-200 like John Scofield plays. IN EXC, VG places it as much as $1,250. My friend laughed, and said that would be far too low... though he'd never sell it.

 

What do you think 445's go for, by the way? Reason: '70's D-18's in EXC go for $1,600-2000, and 2011 D-18's can be had for $1,600-1,800 used, sometimes a few hundred less even. That 445 on the video sounded in the same league. Is there some kind of a discounted value because of the laminate, or are they in the same price range as the D-18's from the two eras? Thanks.- Charley Bevell

 

I think it based more upon lack of undestanding or availability to truely judge the guitar's quality and value. Since there are so few examples out there, its hard to put a price tag or discuss the quality unless you have one which few do and fewer let them go... (I'm one of the fewer)

[kidsmoke]

JUST curious.....where does the information that they're laminates come from? I hadn't heard that before, and I confess I have no info to the contrary. However, part of the Larrivée paradigm is no laminates. They're "bottom of the line" models have always been solid wood, AFAIK. ( I've been personally on board with Larrivée as an owner and geek for 7 years).

 

Certainly no reason they couldn't have built a lami box for a customer such as Heritage. I just hadn't heard that before.

 

I'd agree that $900.00 is high for a lami guitar, even $650.00. But being resettable at the neck joint adds to it's value, something most lami's are not constructed to accommodate. Lami's can sound fantastic, no doubt about that. And that's the key.

[FredZepp]

JUST curious.....where does the information that they're laminates come from? I hadn't heard that before, and I confess I have no info to the contrary.

 

The catalog says solid spruce top, mahogany rim and back for the HFT-445.. ( not solid )

 

The HFT-475 says solid spruce top, solid mahogany rim and back.

 

The H-480 is solid spruce top , solid mahogany rim and solid carved mahogany back. .

 

[DetroitBlues]

I don't think anyone has 450 or a 480... (KBP has a 450, but its a special one off that doesn't resemble the catalog)

[FredZepp]

I don't think anyone has 450 or a 480... (KBP has a 450, but its a special one off that doesn't resemble the catalog)

We did have a member show up with a 480...

 

[kidsmoke]

thanks Fred! (for the ad)

 

I wonder if perhaps Heritage had multiple suppliers....one for the lami boxes and another for the solids. Certainly makes sense for them to attempt to be a full line supplier, with lower cost models available.

 

all speculative, I suppose. A conversation for PSP!

[FredZepp]

thanks Fred! (for the ad)

 

I wonder if perhaps Heritage had multiple suppliers....one for the lami boxes and another for the solids. Certainly makes sense for them to attempt to be a full line supplier, with lower cost models available.

 

all speculative, I suppose. A conversation for PSP!

Yeah.. think how few Heritage acoustics there would be if the 445 hadn't been made..

[DetroitBlues]

Yeah.. think how few Heritage acoustics there would be if the 445 hadn't been made..

 

It definitely makes for more sought after guitar design wise....

[Steiner]

Yeah.. think how few Heritage acoustics there would be if the 445 hadn't been made..

 

Probably as many Heritage Mandolins as we see.

[DetroitBlues]

Wonder how many Heritage Mando owners we have? Brent and who else??? (Assuming Brent hasn't already sent it to a new home)

[Steiner]

Tulk1 has the only other one I can recall

[DetroitBlues]

Wonder if those two hanging up at the factory will continue to hang or will they finally sell them?