More proof that the times are changing!

[Kuz]

Man, people, I name 4 or 5 big acts that have changed to modeling or speaker-less rigs and you come down on me. LOL

 

Again, to deny that this is not a trend is to say no change is happening. Right now it is happening. It may not continue, but today it is FOR SOME ACTS.

 

I maybe one of the few people here who has played through both real amps and high quality modeled rigs. I think if others would open their minds, and choose with their ears and not their preconceived opinions, you might be surprised. If people here at HOC didn't open their minds past Gibson on the headstock, they never would have considered buying a Heritage.

 

And as far as what camp I am in..... which ever one sounds good!!! But I am definitely not in any anti-tube amp camp, quite the contrary. If jazz guitarists have gotten incredible tones from solid state amps for over 40 years, why can't we believe that technology could catch up for SS equipment to sound great for rock & blues too???

[byrdland]

I've tried a lot of digital equipment. I vastly prefer tube amps. In my view the main problem with tube amps is the quality (or lack of) in current production vacuum tubes. OEM amp manufacturers want the CHEAPEST tubes they can get. They have a lot more to say about tube quality control than small, boutique builders. NOS tubes are fading away. Unless China and Russia improve their quality control due to competition, I doubt if it's going to get any better. Also, the materials used in vacuum tubes from the 50's to early 80's was superior to what's available and affordable today for tube manufacturers. I'm selling or have sold all my higher power tube amps. I'm keeping a really nice 18 watter and an old Tube Works solid state amp (with a 12ax7 in the overdrive channel). The next amp I will buy (if any) will be a well made solid state amp (not digital). I know people that go straight to the board with Line 6 stuff and others, but I believe there is a superior sound for an electric guitar that goes into a guitar amp and speaker. I don't like electric guitar going straight into 15's and horns. I can't stand my guitar signal coming back into a floor monitor. Sometimes I have to block the sound from my cabinet to keep stage volume down, but I'm still getting the effect of guitar to amp to guitar speaker. The tube situation sucks.

[tulk1]

Just to jump in, because I want to! TSO used to use all digital. They had racks of Line6 gear off stage. That was when they were playing smaller, more intimate type venues. Now that they are big time and playing "arena" style auditoriums they've gone to tube amps. Thing is ... I can't hear a difference.

 

At one of the jams we frequent the amp I've been playing is a Line6. With a Tubescreamer and Compressor out front. And ... wow!! Love it! There are certainly better digital units out there now than a few years back. And for me ... if it sounds good, I don't care how it was amplified.

[JeffB]

Just to jump in, because I want to! TSO used to use all digital. They had racks of Line6 gear off stage. That was when they were playing smaller, more intimate type venues. Now that they are big time and playing "arena" style auditoriums they've gone to tube amps. Thing is ... I can't hear a difference.

 

At one of the jams we frequent the amp I've been playing is a Line6. With a Tubescreamer and Compressor out front. And ... wow!! Love it! There are certainly better digital units out there now than a few years back. And for me ... if it sounds good, I don't care how it was amplified.

agree. I dont see whay it has to be one or the other. Its all pretty cool and useful and when you plug in a thin clangy sounding electric guitar it makes them loud.

 

TSO, what is this?

[barrymclark]

agree. I dont see whay it has to be one or the other. Its all pretty cool and useful and when you plug in a thin clangy sounding electric guitar it makes them loud.

 

TSO' date=' what is this?[/quote']

 

Trans Siberian Orchestra.

[barrymclark]

I made the first step in going all virtual last night. I may get a Tech 21 Power Engine 60 to fool or at least pacify people hung up on looks.

 

Software amp sims have just gotten rediculously good sounding.

[pressure]

Don't forget to bring a spare! We all bring extra tubes along just in case.

I went to see a new band 2 weeks ago that had everything plugged into a laptop that fed a PA.

Laptop crapped out, band had no spare, the show didn't go on.

[JeffB]

I think It was John McLaughlin's rig I was checking out the other day and it was a laptop and a back up laptop.

[smurph1]

My biggest problem with most (all?) the digital stuff is the interface. They just aren't as easy to use as a normal amps/effects. I've been goofing around with the Axe-FX Ultra for the past couple of months. While I think it has some killer tones and would be a HUGE asset for home recording, the interface still sucks imho. I spend more time fiddling with the Axe-FX than I do playing. Somebody needs to build a digital processor that's as easy to use as a normal guitar amp. When they do that, the world will be their oyster.

I know that there will be a lot of disagreement with this but..To my much less picky than most ears, I had already arrived at the Holy Grail of digital modeling tone with my Line 6 Flextone 2 amp..Easy to use and sounded great!! Too bad I decided to park a Budweiser on top of it at a gig..DOH!!

[barrymclark]

Don\'t forget to bring a spare! We all bring extra tubes along just in case.

I went to see a new band 2 weeks ago that had everything plugged into a laptop that fed a PA.

Laptop crapped out' date=' band had no spare, the show didn\'t go on.[/quote']

 

You\'d like to think that\'d be a given that you\'d need a laptop.

[barrymclark]

 

You\'d like to think that\'d be a given that you\'d need a laptop.

 

Sorry.....that you\'d need a backup. Stupid auto-complete.

[Guest HRB853370]

Just read where Lenny Kravitz has no pedals or amps on stage.

 

All his pedals and patches are switched by the sound guys.

 

Laptops have been around for a decade to monitor sound, switch effects, and mix the tone.

 

Don't shoot the messenger, I just wanted people to open their minds and see what is happening with many headlining acts!!!

 

Betcha Alex Skolnick has amps on stage!!!

[Kuz]

 

Betcha Alex Skolnick has amps on stage!!!

 

Well, have you read the topic right next to this one in the amp section.......?????!!!!

 

http://www.heritageownersclub.com/forums/topic/17532-alex-skolnick-on-the-ampkits-budda-superdrive-30-model-indirect-heritage-content/

[Guest HRB853370]

 

Well, have you read the topic right next to this one in the amp section.......?????!!!!

 

http://www.heritageo...ritage-content/

 

That was my point, he plays a Buddha!

[kbp810]

Again, I think people are missing the point. I have 6 expensive tube amps that I adore!!!! I also have an Axe-Fx standard that is an incredible incredible tool as well.

 

Read my posts, I never claimed one is superior to the other.

 

What did do is report that many acts are changing on their own to modeling or simulators because they are getting that good.

 

I am reporting what others are doing, I am not voicing an opinion ( quite frankly I do not know where I would go if I was a large touring act), but simply report exact what some others are doing. And it is more than a trend or a fad.

No Kuz, I think your missing the point... it's people, it's made of PEOPLE!

 

Oh wait, we were talking about the modeling amps weren't we

 

I made no such claim as to which was superior either - I know tube amps, it is my hobby and my passion; I like to tinker with the small stuff such as different caps, resistors, tubes, etc... small changes that make small differences that are highly subjective as to if it sounds better or just sounds different... thats what interests me, and what will continue to interest me for the foreseeable future. Modelers, while they might be capable of sounding damn close, or even exactly the same, are still going to be soylent green to me.

 

So whats my point here? Nothing, really... other than I should have perhaps just kept my mouth shut and not responded to the thread

 

Kuz, you are a talented player with a talented ear - I've heard what you could do with a tube amp, and I've heard what you can do with the Axe-Fx, and I sure haven't heard anyting I haven't liked to date; and regardless of who is who and who plays what, that's all the evidence that I need to come to terms with modelers being on par. While I have the upmost respect for all of the tube amp builders out there, past, present, and future, it would indeed be naive to think that these won't have an impact; they have too much potential appeal to pro and amature enthusiasts alike... but they're still not going to appeal to everyone. And I also don't think the boutique shops will be packing up and unplug the soldering irons just yet.

 

Just think... Will the players of tomorrow grow up dreaming of owning an ODS someday? Or will they grow up dreaming of the next software upgrade for their Axe-Fx? A cold shiver just went down spine thinking about it!

[Trouble]

 

But why compromise? I agree things change, but you know the saying, the more things change the more they stay the same.

 

They are probably the minority still. I saw Alice in Chains last year. Not once single cab or amp on the stage. Totally clean. Their cabs were under the stage pointed down. Their amps were under also. They talk about it on their website-no stage volume issues to worry about.

 

I don't think amp companies are in danger of going under.

Cantrell was one of the first guys to start using isolation cabinets, but he still uses Bogner heads cranked into 4X12 cabinets, they are just in little soundproof boxes to manage volume levels. If nothing else it's easier on the bands ears.

[barrymclark]

Brian is spot on here. Who cares HOW they got their tone or HOW the delivered their show. Just play the damn thing. If something doesn\'t appeal to you, so be it. But be open enough to recognize when someone has clearly \'brought it\' even if with an unconventional means. I don\'t think at all that tube amps are in any real danger. Certainly not as it stands. Not due to superiority but simply because it is a classic, tried and true technology. Funny thing is, modeling tech is over 20 years old thanks to Tech 21 in 1989 with the first SansAmp. Modeling clearly isn\'t going away and is being embraced more and more by more and more notable artists. My interest in modeling came with Line 6\'s first Pod in the late 90\'s and I have watched this market go from fun little gadgets to serious musicians\' pieces of performance gear. Even Fender and Marshall have seen fit to embrace this trend and have WONDERFUL modeler amps in their Mustangs and JMD:1 series respectively.

[Trouble]

I know that there will be a lot of disagreement with this but..To my much less picky than most ears, I had already arrived at the Holy Grail of digital modeling tone with my Line 6 Flextone 2 amp..Easy to use and sounded great!! Too bad I decided to park a Budweiser on top of it at a gig..DOH!!

I played a benifit/festival a couple years ago that started at 10am and ran till about 6pm. I was in the rythm section of the first act for 2 hours, took a break and another band went on, then set in with some friends for their set for 2 hours, then a break another band and my band. Over the course of the day I must have poured about six half beers thru my Valveking, the stage was a rented, metal floored trailer and the floor flexed a bit. A whole can of beer was safe half can or under was risky. It made it thru the show and is still going.

[barrymclark]

I played a benifit/festival a couple years ago that started at 10am and ran till about 6pm. I was in the rythm section of the first act for 2 hours' date=' took a break and another band went on, then set in with some friends for their set for 2 hours, then a break another band and my band. Over the course of the day I must have poured about six half beers thru my Valveking, the stage was a rented, metal floored trailer and the floor flexed a bit. A whole can of beer was safe half can or under was risky. It made it thru the show and is still going.[/quote']

 

Valvekings are notorious drunks.

[zguitar71]

 

 

Still might be the minority, but the majority is diminishing quickly!!!

 

By what cost??? None, if you can't tell the difference!!!

 

If you don't think Line 6, Fractile Audio, Kempler, and Vox modelers haven't severely hurt amp sales, you are fooling yourself.

 

Currently the wait time for a Tungsten amp (any model) is 12 weeks or so. I know this because I ordered one back in mid February and the last time I talked to Adam he said it should be done around mid May. The time to have one built is lengthening because of demand. All his amps are old school copies or variations of old designs and he has a back log of orders. I do not think the modeling amps have hurt his business or other similar amp sales either.

 

I do not doubt that there is a modeling trend and it could be gaining momentum but the classic tube amp builders are currently in a trend too and have quite a bit of momentum behind them. I think the better modeling amps will hurt the sales of not so great modeling amps more than the old school amp builders. The people, like me, who buy that type of amp will continue to and probably not buy highteck amps at all.

 

For every big touring band that goes on with simulators there are other bands and musician's that continue to go the old way like Keith Richard's tweed twins or Niel Young's tweed deluxe or Derek Truck's blackface supers.

 

OK so that is my two cents on that, now here is my two cents on Line 6 amps. I cannot stand the tone of them. I am a crank it up and use the guitar volume person. I have used Line 6 amps when I have played venues with house amps and I will never do it again. Cranking the clean tones all the way up (I know, that is not what those amps are about) just sounds terrible. The closest dirty setting does not have the dynamics I like and it robs the emotion out of my playing. I have never found a pedal or multi channel amp that can give the touch sensitivity or tone of a well made simple tube amp cranked way up.

 

Disclaimer: those are my opinions and I do not mean any harm or offense to anyone with them.

[barrymclark]

 

Currently the wait time for a Tungsten amp (any model) is 12 weeks or so. I know this because I ordered one back in mid February and the last time I talked to Adam he said it should be done around mid May. The time to have one built is lengthening because of demand. All his amps are old school copies or variations of old designs and he has a back log of orders. I do not think the modeling amps have hurt his business or other similar amp sales either.

 

I do not doubt that there is a modeling trend and it could be gaining momentum but the classic tube amp builders are currently in a trend too and have quite a bit of momentum behind them. I think the better modeling amps will hurt the sales of not so great modeling amps more than the old school amp builders. The people' date=' like me, who buy that type of amp will continue to and probably not buy highteck amps at all.

 

For every big touring band that goes on with simulators there are other bands and musician\'s that continue to go the old way like Keith Richard\'s tweed twins or Niel Young\'s tweed deluxe or Derek Truck\'s blackface supers.

 

OK so that is my two cents on that, now here is my two cents on Line 6 amps. I cannot stand the tone of them. I am a crank it up and use the guitar volume person. I have used Line 6 amps when I have played venues with house amps and I will never do it again. Cranking the clean tones all the way up (I know, that is not what those amps are about) just sounds terrible. The closest dirty setting does not have the dynamics I like and it robs the emotion out of my playing. I have never found a pedal or multi channel amp that can give the touch sensitivity or tone of a well made simple tube amp cranked way up.

 

Disclaimer: those are my opinions and I do not mean any harm or offense to anyone with them.[/quote']

 

No offense taken. Go with what works for you. I have never cared for Line 6 amps either but have liked their Pods increasingly with every new model. What you said is key. For YOU it robs emotion. Too many confuse that with it will rob EVERYONE of emotion in their playing. I used caps not to yell but for emphasis because I can\'t italicize easily on my phone. I am also not arguing with you but agreeing or at least giving girth to part of your statement that might be easily missed.

[Kuz]

No Kuz, I think your missing the point... it's people, it's made of PEOPLE!

 

Oh wait, we were talking about the modeling amps weren't we

 

I made no such claim as to which was superior either - I know tube amps, it is my hobby and my passion; I like to tinker with the small stuff such as different caps, resistors, tubes, etc... small changes that make small differences that are highly subjective as to if it sounds better or just sounds different... thats what interests me, and what will continue to interest me for the foreseeable future. Modelers, while they might be capable of sounding damn close, or even exactly the same, are still going to be soylent green to me.

 

So whats my point here? Nothing, really... other than I should have perhaps just kept my mouth shut and not responded to the thread

 

Kuz, you are a talented player with a talented ear - I've heard what you could do with a tube amp, and I've heard what you can do with the Axe-Fx, and I sure haven't heard anyting I haven't liked to date; and regardless of who is who and who plays what, that's all the evidence that I need to come to terms with modelers being on par. While I have the upmost respect for all of the tube amp builders out there, past, present, and future, it would indeed be naive to think that these won't have an impact; they have too much potential appeal to pro and amature enthusiasts alike... but they're still not going to appeal to everyone. And I also don't think the boutique shops will be packing up and unplug the soldering irons just yet.

 

Just think... Will the players of tomorrow grow up dreaming of owning an ODS someday? Or will they grow up dreaming of the next software upgrade for their Axe-Fx? A cold shiver just went down spine thinking about it!

 

I don't see anywhere where we disagree..... other than you think I am talented, I'll disagree there.

 

But seriously, I just brought up a trend in live acts, I have no dog in this fight.

 

If I could crank my Bogner Shiva, Carr Rambler, Headstrong 'Lil, '67 Vibrolux (all with NOS RCA short gray plate 12ax7s) all night long.... leave them out mic'd exactly where I like.... without fear of kids running into them, the wife yelling for me to turn it down, ect...... Then I would!!!

 

I love tube amps, I MEAN I LOVE TUBE AMPS!!!

 

But I also found a tool that is so close to the real thing (and I hated the Line 6 stuff).

 

Like we keep saying over and over and over..... it is what works for you that counts, that it.

 

Well, at least this thread spurred some conversation, even if I came across as misunderstood.

[zguitar71]

 

 

. For YOU it robs emotion. Too many confuse that with it will rob EVERYONE of emotion in their playing.

 

On this we do agree 100%.

[212Mavguy]

hey, at least everyone was nice to one another! YAY!

 

boutique amps for boutique guitars...

 

;~)

[bobmeyrick]

I reckon it's a case of horses for courses. Artists who have a signature sound will use whatever gives them that sound - I doubt that Robben Ford will be retiring his Dumble! However, when I saw Zappa Plays Zappa last year, Dweezil was using his Axe-Fx rig and getting some fantastic tones. The evolution of his rig can be found here, and it's instructive to compare the diagrams of the different set-ups. He also makes the point that it's made transporting the gear on tour much easier.