Scale Length and Tone

[DetroitBlues]

Between 6StringJazz, Kuz, and myself, there is a debate about the tone of an archtop/hollowbody/semi-hollow body guitar relative to its scale length. Now I may be a little biased because I'm a rock and blues guitarist, not a jazz player. On my Strat, Dot (535 like), SG, and 140, I found my tone to be rather similar, mostly because I compensate with pedals/amp settings. However, both of 6string and Kuz, have firmly stated that there is a definite tone difference when playing a shorter scale archtop like a 575 and a longer scale 550. Can anyone put together, some comparison videos (for those fortunate enough to have guitars of this caliber)? Preferably guitars two full hollow bodies. Anyone else have their own opinion of the matter?

[Kuz]

Yes, I could do that... but honestly if you can't hear the difference between a Strat and a Semi, or a Strat and a 140, then I don't see the point.

 

You really can't hear the differences in tone between those???

 

Also add Will to the team with hearing!!! LOL, he said there was a difference as well.

[H]

In all fairness, Kuz, he's asking for a comparison between a 575 and a 550.

 

The difference between a 140 and a Strat is obvious but the woods, construction, etc are hugely different.

 

To nail it for certain, I'd like to hear two guitars of identical construction except for the scale length. I'm pretty sure I read on the HOC once that someone had a 25.5 535 built. How about that, strung with the same strings and played by the same person, up against a 24.75 535?

 

 

[Kuz]

But that is the point.... everything adds up; scale length, pickups, bolt on vs set neck, ect... and manufactures use different wood (alder & ash) based on scale length and the type of neck (bolt on or set neck) because they know the tone it will generate.

 

I have a 575 with solid maple top & (2) Seth Lovers that gives a short scale darker, mellower tone compared to the Florentine Golden Eagle with solid spruce & (1) HRW that gives the snappier more immediate, more articulate long scale tone.

[SouthpawGuy]

Heritage H-137 .... one piece mahogany body, one piece mahogany neck, set neck construction

 

Larrivee RS-2 .... one piece mahogany body, one piece mahogany neck, set neck construction

 

Heritage - rosewood fingerboard, Fralin noise free P-90s

 

Larrivee - ebony fingerboard, Manlius noise free P-90s

 

Heritage - 24 3/4" scale length

 

Larrivee - 25 1/2" scale length

 

Two guitars with very similar construction but with different pickups, fingerboard and scale length.

 

Tonally they are very different. The Heritage has a much warmer fatter tone, the Larrivee has lots more bite and presence and sounds very Tele like, almost too much bite. How much of that is down to the scale length I don't know, probably a lot to do with the pickups. The 137 is heavier than the RS-2 by about a pound or so and feels more like a 150 / Les Paul while the RS-2 is more in the SG category feel wise.

 

And for what it's worth the RS-2 sounds almost identical to my EBMM Axis MM90 which is 25 1/2" scale length, bolt on construction, with an ash body / rosewood top and solid rosewood neck.

[Kuz]

Here are two clips from my "Archtop Shoot Out" I did a year ago (sloppy playing but they were just a quick pass over "Misty" so you could hear the differences)

 

#1 is the Long Scale Florintine Golden Eagle with 1 HRW. The Florentine Golden Eagle is more immediate, snappier, more articulate ( like a Tele or Strat would be). Quicker, snappier, less bloom, the note is on you and gone.

 

http://soundclick.co...cfm?id=10887040

 

#3 is the Custom 575 with (2) Seth Lovers. The 575 is darker, smoother, rounder (like a Les Paul or 150), more bloom and development of the fundamental note, less immediate

 

http://soundclick.co...cfm?id=10887041

 

Same strings, same pick, same amp setting, ect.....

[big bob]

Yes, I could do that... but honestly if you can't hear the difference between a Strat and a Semi, or a Strat and a 140, then I don't see the point.

 

You really can't hear the differences in tone between those???

 

Also add Will to the team with hearing!!! LOL, he said there was a difference as well.

 

Hey Kuz, how do you know the difference in tone that you are hearing is not caused by the fret board material? You yourself have said that ebony and rosewood have totally different tone.

 

Maybe it's not the guitars? Maybe Kuz, you are one of those "super hearers"? You know like some people are super tasters .

 

I myself would argue that the difference in tone between any two guitars is caused more by color. For example, my red/orange burst 170 sounds totally different than my trans blue 140.

[Kuz]

I agree and as I have stated such earlier in this thread. Wood, neck type, pickups, scale length, all contribute to a different tone. How this all got stated was DB said scale length doesn't contribute to tone. I and others disagreed and I tried to present some generalization about the differences of short scale vs long scale are.

[big bob]

I agree and as I have stated such earlier in this thread. Wood, neck type, pickups, scale length, all contribute to a different tone. How this all got stated was DB said scale length doesn't contribute to tone. I and others disagreed and I tried to present some generalization about the differences of short scale vs long scale are.

Kuz, I'm just yanking your chain. Every guitar has a different tone, is the difference assignable it any one ingredient? Probably not.

But hey what do I know, i'm the idiot who's about to try to teach six high school freshmen how to surf!

Have a nice weekend. Try not to think about it too much. tone is tone, does it matter why they sound different, or that they sound different?

[Kuz]

Lance we are cool, no problem Bud!!

 

And I have no issue with DB either, we just differ on topic or two. But that is what is so cool about HOC, topics can be debated in a civil way.

[MartyGrass]

http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Fretting/a-scalelength.html

 

http://www.edroman.com/techarticles/scalelength.htm

[MartyGrass]

http://m.guitarplayer.com/article/5-things-about-scale-length/4119

 

http://www.guitarnoise.com/lesson/scale-length-explained/

[Ned]

The jazzmaster vs jaguar debate accounts for terabites of internet traffic daily. As far as I can tell, it all boils down to string tension for those two camps. When moving the top of an archtop is the goal, i have always figured that more tension, longer scale, is the way to go,

[MartyGrass]

Copied this. It is related.

 

 

I think it might be good to note the difference between tension and elasticity.

 

Many people have said the string distance past the nut and bridge affect the tension, but that's not actually true. The pitch of the string is derived from it's mass, tension and SPEAKING length, meaning the distance between the bridge and the nut or the distance between the bridge and whatever fret you're pressing on.

 

If added string length past the nut changed the tension between the nut and bridge you'd have to retune to get it back where it was in the first place. You can't affect tension without affecting pitch.

 

What added string length past the anchor points of the bridge and nut does do is increase the overall elasticity of the string since it's overall length is increased.

 

To illustrate, picture two lengths of rope anchored at both ends. One is five feet long and the other is twenty feet long. You tighten them both until they're tensioned to 30 pounds. Then you grab the middle of each section of rope and try to pull it off center.

 

Even though the ropes are the same tension, the longer rope will have more mechanical give to it than the shorter one simply because there's more stretch to have. If one foot of rope can be stretched an extra inch, then the twenty foot rope can be stretched further than the five foot one even though both are at the same tension.

 

So all else being equal, a guitar with more string length past the two anchor points should have a bit of a looser feel provided the two anchor points allow the string to move over them freely to bring the extra length into play. If you've got a locking nut then it doesn't matter how much string is past it.

 

Another way this relates to guitars is that if you have a slick nut with extra string past it and a trem that gives or a fixed bridge with string through or what have you, that extra string length and elasticity will make it easier to bend strings off their resting positions, meaning an easier feel.

 

While it will still require the exact same increase in tension to raise the pitch of the bend to the right spot, it will still feel easier because even though you have to push the string further the force needed to push it is spread over a larger distance of fret, which we perceive as being easier.

 

Just like with the rope illustration, if you tried to pull both ropes off center enough to raise the tension by 3 pounds, you might only have to pull the shorter rope two inches while you'd have to pull the twenty foot rope a foot or more. It would take the same amount of force, but the added elasticity makes the longer rope FEEL easier.

[Guest HRB853370]

Copied this. It is related.

 

 

I think it might be good to note the difference between tension and elasticity.

 

Many people have said the string distance past the nut and bridge affect the tension, but that's not actually true. The pitch of the string is derived from it's mass, tension and SPEAKING length, meaning the distance between the bridge and the nut or the distance between the bridge and whatever fret you're pressing on.

 

If added string length past the nut changed the tension between the nut and bridge you'd have to retune to get it back where it was in the first place. You can't affect tension without affecting pitch.

 

What added string length past the anchor points of the bridge and nut does do is increase the overall elasticity of the string since it's overall length is increased.

 

To illustrate, picture two lengths of rope anchored at both ends. One is five feet long and the other is twenty feet long. You tighten them both until they're tensioned to 30 pounds. Then you grab the middle of each section of rope and try to pull it off center.

 

Even though the ropes are the same tension, the longer rope will have more mechanical give to it than the shorter one simply because there's more stretch to have. If one foot of rope can be stretched an extra inch, then the twenty foot rope can be stretched further than the five foot one even though both are at the same tension.

 

So all else being equal, a guitar with more string length past the two anchor points should have a bit of a looser feel provided the two anchor points allow the string to move over them freely to bring the extra length into play. If you've got a locking nut then it doesn't matter how much string is past it.

 

Another way this relates to guitars is that if you have a slick nut with extra string past it and a trem that gives or a fixed bridge with string through or what have you, that extra string length and elasticity will make it easier to bend strings off their resting positions, meaning an easier feel.

 

While it will still require the exact same increase in tension to raise the pitch of the bend to the right spot, it will still feel easier because even though you have to push the string further the force needed to push it is spread over a larger distance of fret, which we perceive as being easier.

 

Just like with the rope illustration, if you tried to pull both ropes off center enough to raise the tension by 3 pounds, you might only have to pull the shorter rope two inches while you'd have to pull the twenty foot rope a foot or more. It would take the same amount of force, but the added elasticity makes the longer rope FEEL easier.

 

WOW!! That was deep! And very good!!

[Steiner]

I'm not sure I'm on base with that analogy. In particular, stretching rope is far simpler than guitar strings. Bending strings increases the tension of the string more so than stretching the steel. That's why the pitch changes - if it stretched, the pitch would remain constant. If the rope analogy were true, blues guitar players (and other string bending styles) would gravitate toward a tail that was further back on the lower bout, whereas "pure note" players (Jazz?) would tend toward a tail that was right on top of the bridge.

 

What is true is that guitar strings aren't straight. Like electric and telephone cables between poles, they are shaped in hyperbolic cosine curves. The distance between a machine head and nut, for example, and scale length directly influences the available "slack" for a given tension. The greater the distance, the greater the slack. However, the longer scale guitars require more string tension to achieve the same pitch; this decreases the slack...

 

I do support the idea that some of the string's energy is transferred past the nut and bridge into the headstock and tail. A quick look at the stellar guitars in your siggy MG suggests that the transferred energy beyond the bridge would be different in all 3 guitars. I doubt that the effects are pronounced, yet hours of practice on the different examples should make the effect noticeable with respect to sustain and overtones.

 

I'm guessing that the original discrepancy between DBlues and Kuz stems from their different experiences. Based on their posts, I'd say that Kuz spends many hours on few guitars and perhaps concentrates on the overtones while DBlues spend (relatively) less time on many different guitars so he probably listens closely to the voice of the electronics and wood interaction. I don't believe either is wrong in their assertions, they're just coming from different perspectives.

[MartyGrass]

Another important variable is the build of the string. Unwrapped strings are generally easier to displace and vibrate longer. I'm sure there are differences among the materials. For example compare steel to nylon. Steel oscillates with less energy expenditure so it will sound longer.

 

Add to that the wrapping on the heavier strings. Round wounds flex or vibrate with less friction than flat wounds, so they have more bouquet, if you will, and sustain. Thinner wraps with larger cores should also have more sustain and overtones.

[MrB]

I think DetroitBlues's question is really asking:

If everything else is equal (tone woods, body geometry, fretboard wood, neck shape, string gauge, electronics, tuning, string length past the bridge...) what is the difference between short and long scale length.

 

The shorter scale length guitar would have less tension on the strings, compared to the long scale guitar. The shorter strings would therefore be looser and more bendy. The shorter strings would also vibrate through a slightly larger arc.

Comparing the feel, the shorter guitar might be better perhaps for playing blues, where a lot of the technique involves 'squeezing' music out of the notes.

The longer strings would feel more precise, and might feel better playing more 'traditional' jazz, where picking speed and tight articulation are required. Complex chording might also be easier, since you wouldn't be as apt to accidentally bend the strings. Also, the tighter arc of vibration might allow the action to be set slightly lower.

 

I suspect the flexibility of the looser short scale strings would allow more upper harmonics to be present on the tone, a richer sound. While the tighter long scale strings would reduce the uppers, but emphasize the root and lower harmonics more, a tighter, bassier sound.

 

Of course, the other variation is, the short scale guitar could be set up the heavier gauge strings, allowing an increase in tension. The guitar would then feel and have tone more like the longer one, but the thicker strings wound have more power, since the mass is increased. More powerful acoustic sound, louder electric sound.

Or lighter gauge strings on the long scale guitar, resulting in the feel and tone of the short scale, but with a thinner and weaker sound.

 

Not to mention the issue of size.

Short scale = easier to reach notes for folks with small hands, long scale = more comfortable for big hands.

 

Mr B

[DetroitBlues]

But that is the point.... everything adds up; scale length, pickups, bolt on vs set neck, ect... and manufactures use different wood (alder & ash) based on scale length and the type of neck (bolt on or set neck) because they know the tone it will generate.

 

I have a 575 with solid maple top & (2) Seth Lovers that gives a short scale darker, mellower tone compared to the Florentine Golden Eagle with solid spruce & (1) HRW that gives the snappier more immediate, more articulate long scale tone.

 

I did not say there wasn't a difference in tone, but rather I try to alter the tones to get a universal tone out of them. I can pick out my strat, 140, or Dot when listening, but I do not have a comparison of a shorter and long scale hollow body. So I'm asking to be educated in that aspect.

[Kuz]

 

I did not say there wasn't a difference in tone, but rather I can pick out my strat, 140, or Dot when listening, but I do not have a comparison of a shorter and long scale hollow body. So I'm asking to be educated in that aspect.

 

DB, don't sweat it, you and I are cool.

 

But what I don't understand why do you "try to alter the tones to get a universal tone out of them"??? Don't you like the different tones a Strat vs 140 vs the Dot make? If you are trying to make them all sound the same, why not just pick one guitar and only use that one?

 

I am just curious on this matter, not trying to beat you up. Hope you understand this, it is just something I really haven't heard anyone try to do before. I pick what guitar I am going to play based on the guitar's tone & timbre and if it will marry to what the song needs.

[DetroitBlues]

 

DB, don't sweat it, you and I are cool.

 

But what I don't understand why do you "try to alter the tones to get a universal tone out of them"??? Don't you like the different tones a Strat vs 140 vs the Dot make? If you are trying to make them all sound the same, why not just pick one guitar and only use that one?

 

I am just curious on this matter, not trying to beat you up. Hope you understand this, it is just something I really haven't heard anyone try to do before. I pick what guitar I am going to play based on the guitar's tone & timbre and if it will marry to what the song needs.

 

Basically, the music I play is electric blues and some rock songs, both of which I use dirt 90% of the time. There are some songs, like "The Thrill is Gone" that must be played with humbuckers, but doesn't have to be a semi-hollow body. My old 140 worked just fine for that. But other songs, like "Roadhouse Blues" sound better with a Strat. I substitute my guitars based upon the electronics, not the scale or tone-woods. That's how I define the differences in tone, to me its about the electronics, not the scale.

 

I've listened to your audio posts, and there are some differences in tone, but I feel either guitar could be substituted and the listener wouldn't know. But as Steiner pointed out, we also have different backgrounds. The clips you provided were traditional, major scale like blues, but to me they sound more like Jazz, to which I do not play. So when I hear both of your recordings, there is no way for me to listen to them and not think they are very similar guitars if not the same. I think most often, the subtle differences in tone will be heard from playing the guitars in a very clean manner. That may be why I do not feel there would be much of a difference because I don't play that way. If you went back and recorded a rock song on those with slight to moderate dirt, how much of the tone difference will be eliminated?

[Kuz]

Well, I think you are choosing a guitar based on scale length whether you like it or not!!!!

 

Yes, the Strat has single coils and the Dot has humbuckers, but it is not JUST the electronics you are hearing.... you are hearing the intrinsic tone of the wood & scale length too!!!

 

Unless you are playing high gain metal (which you don't) you are going to hear the differences in how a Strat with OD sounds, vs a Semi with OD sounds. Yes, the electronics are different, but the physics of the scale length will always make a Strat sound like a Strat and a Semi sound like a Semi.

[Kuz]

A final few thoughts, and then I am going to bow out on this topic.

 

-I do suggest you read the links that Martygrass left as they summarize the differences in tone based on scale length.

 

-I play the 575 vs the Golden Eagle with a bunch of distortion (which I am not going to do because they were intended for that) they both would sound bad in my opinion, but yes the differences would be marginalized. But the point is the differences still do exist.

 

-I asked Vince Lewis at last years PSP if he owns a short scale Heritage or another maker's short scale archtop and he said no. I asked why and he said because he prefers the tone of the 25.5" scale. He said he wished he like the tone of 24.75" more so he could do more stretch chords, but he just likes the tone from the long scale. Maybe if he is at this years PSP you can talk to him about it.

 

Well, thanks for an interesting discussion. If others want to contribute more to the topic that would be great, but I feel I have exhausted what I have to say. Again, an interesting topic!!!

[DetroitBlues]

Thanks for your rebuttals Kuz. Perhaps when I have an opportunity to play both types, my opinion will change. By the way, those clips sounded really good. I rather enjoyed them both.

[iim7v7im7]

My Sweet 16 is a 25.5" scaled instrument. I do have difficulty below the fifth fret with certain "stretch" chord forms that I love the sound of. There is a Maj 13th chord form that I use in a number of tunes (Ab maj 7) in A Nightingale Sand in Berkley Square or the last Chord of Bluesette (G Maj 7) are are tough for me on a 25.5" scale. For example:

 

G maj 7 (form I was referring to in the two tunes)

3 5 x 4 7 7

 

Am7b5

x x 7 5 4 3

 

E13

x x 3 7 4 5

 

These are "doable" for me, but a bit of a stretch on my Sweet 16. As a result, I asked Bill Comins to make my archtop with a 25" (Johnny Smith) scale length. The 1/2" just makes it a touch easier on the lower frets, but still provides a bit more room on the upper frets than a 24.75" scale length. I think this is why you see many modern luthiers using this in-between scale length. So forgetting tone, there are other practical trade-offs to consider.