A major change on the bandstand at Church...

[212Mavguy]

A few of you know that I play in a gospel band at a Baptist Church. I furnished all of the stage equipment used for my position. I started out playing through a Siegmund Midnight Blues Breaker head and a pair of closed back 2/12/s stacked. I wanted a lot of cone area to move a lot of air at lower volumes and also have the dynamics to keep up with the brothas and sistahs in the choir when they get crankin'. I liked the tone that I was getting a lot, it had a very human vocal quality and would sing like a Dumble when I pushed down on the volume pedal during sustaining notes. My favorite amp voices for Gospel are ones having human and/or organ-like sounds within their clean and dirty palette... The problem I had with this amp was that it was a one channel amp. I prefer a two channel tube preamp, avoiding SS dirt boxes for my personal tones. So I bought an 80's (#124 high plate skyliner tonestack) Dumble clone and a Leslie G27 speaker for it, set it up, tubed it out with old stock glass and played through it for quite a few Sundays, it was a very sweet rig...WAS.

 

The Church had contracted with a sound company to come in and redo the building's sound system. The Musicians were not consulted on how this was to be done. Work finished day before yesterday. The large sanctuary had hundreds of square feet of acoustic damping panels installed on the walls, new insulating ceiling panels, new video cams, new flatscreen at the back, two 8X10 projection screens in front, all new state of the art rackmount amps, completely new sound board and recording/editing board for CD production, new PA speakers suspended from the ceiling, and new in ear monitors and floor shakers for the musicians taking places of their amps on stage...after I has spent about 3500 bucks on my church rig within the last year.

 

I was ready for them. I had incorporated a 100 watt rated Weber MASS attenuator/tonestack equipped balanced line out direct box in my rig from the beginning. My precious Leslie (My PREEEEECIIOOOUS!) ahh, JK. The g27 is at the moment an expensive guitar amp stand. I won't say how concerned I was at the beginning. But I met the fearless leader of the sound company, we had words and reached understanding with a few agree to disagrees in opinions. If I have it right that our stalwart HOC member Kuz plays in a church with out "amp on stage," I was about to join the "Kuz club."

 

Day before yesterday I came in for band practice, set up my rig, got trained on the use of the in ear monitor mixers from Aviom, and did a brief band practice, followed by choir rehearsal.

 

Yesterday morning I got there and had to go to the bathroom to figure out in a mirror how to stick in the earphones in, they have wires that pass over the top of each ear and meet in the back under my suitcoat and vest, through a belt loop, then connected to anothe extension cable to the stand mounted personal monitor mixer. I walked up on stage and took up my position, and one of the first things I noticed was now there was a bright stage light suspended from the ceiling squarely focused on my eyes, it hurt like the Sun to look at it. I t also made me think that the lighting made think that I might look even more conspicuous in being the only white boy in the band...I joked about how I look like I was glowing in the dark and got a few laughs. The tones of my guitar coming through my earplugs did not sound like my own tones, but I know that what was coming out in the front of the house speakers was pretty close to my stage rig tones, but much more harmonically detailed in the upper mids and top end, very accurate, HIFI reproduction of what was coming out of the output transformer of my amp instead the speaker of an amp cab. The effect is starrtling at first. I hear the mids and treble in my ears, the bass and kick drum come up from the bottom, I hear them through the bones of my skeleton coming up from the under stage floor mounted transducers. So now I am disconnected from my amp on stage and only get to hear it through this setup from now on...But I'm better off than the other guitar player, he had just bought a new anp too and he did not have a direct out from it, so his amp had to totally go away, he only could play though his fx bod direct into the board. The bass player's Ampeg SVT and 8/10 cab had to go away. No speakers on stage. The Leslie was banished to a back room to be miced. I lost one of my fave stage buddies in that 122.

 

Until the contractor sound guy leaves.

 

I have a few mics and cables around the house, and will get the toys to mount my "amp stand" Leslie to pick up the top and bottom rotors and put that effect back into the house through the main board. There's room for expandability within the new equipment.

 

So yesterday morning, the 8:00 service came and there I was, playing through the new setup. When I put it on the day before, and the band mix started coming through the new equipment for my first time experience, I was grinning within 5 minutes and having a good time. About half way through the third number the left earpiece gently fell out and plopped onto my guitar strp on my shoulder. Now I had one ear for the house and one ear for my monitor, I kept on til the end of the song and put it back in, then later on the right earpiece fell out. At the 11:00 service, the drummer uses an electronic drum kit, which is pretty silent not amplified compared to the real thing. I look over at her and her eyes are really big, she says that she can't hear anything...I asked her where her earpieces are, she said on the floor, they fell out while playing, this is a big black woman close to 300 pounds who really smacks the skins and every part of her body is moving in every direction all the time if you get the idea. So in the middle of the number I stop playing, put my guitar in the stand and squeeze myself behind her, while she was still smacking away, reinserted each earpiece, doing my best to not make it painful. Went back to my spot, picked up my guitar and continued on. The guys in the sound room were having a fit at first trying to figger out what I was up to at first. I found it humorous.

 

The overall verdict from a DIEHARD "I won't let any soundman compromise or ruin my tone" guitar player was that for the audience, things were better sounding by far. The other guitar player and I were heading up to the booth when the contractor met us, he was already looking for us, he said that for the first time he could hear what we were doing in the quiet passages, or when we were sitting way back in the pocket noodling, so the new equipment worked as it was supposed to. Personally, if I hear a bass or keyboard, I can go by seat of pants to whatever get tossed at us, but some of the musicians needed to hear the choir as well as more/other instruments so as to figger out their parts. Our performing style is practice a piece 3-4 times total, then go for it. Only a couple of the keyboard players read or ever use sheet music. We play by ear, and the choir learns their parts by ear also. Many time in services the band is called upon to perform songs not rehearsed, in a spontaneous moment of a member, deacon, or pastor breaking out in song. With my stage rig, I could bend down to the amp cab and find the root. Now there is no more safety net, have to guess via perfect or imperfect pitch and hit the note on the fretboard, so now I have to hit and slide to the right spot while making it sound like I meant to do that. I get it right about half the time, and will keep training my pitch recognition. I love hearing all the members of the band and choir though the earpieces, even though I have a more than decent ear, it made it muuuuuuuuch easier for me to play and find my space within the improvisations my position calls for. The Aviom reps were great to work with once we started talking to each other.

 

But the nicest thing is that as a future rock star that never will be... someday when I'm really well known and famous and get to play on a major TV production like the Grammys or Oscars I'll already know how to work with a variety of stage setups...

 

PFFFFFFFFFT.

 

;~)

[Kuz]

Just to clarify, I play at church and always use a small combo amp as my sole means of being amplified (I am not mic'd and don't go through the church's sound system). This can be a blessing and a curse at the same time. The positive are that I have control of my volume, both what the congregation hears and what I can hear. The negative is the same as the positive in that I have to be sure that my volume is appropriate within the mix.

 

Our church is very low tech relatively speaking for today's praise music. We have a keyboard and 4 vocals that go through the church PA, and drums, guitar, & bass that are not mic'd. We did start out by running all instruments through the church's P.A., but we (guitar, bass, drums) found out this was too taxing on the "sound engineer" plus we couldn't hear ourselves through the monitor. So we went old school, amplifying our own instruments and works better for us. Yea, sometimes the bass is too loud, or I am not loud enough (LOL) but we seem to get an acceptable mix via old school way.

 

We have challenges for sure and it can be frustrating. But I always try to remember WHY I am playing to begin with and it's not about me!

[byrdland]

In the band I'm in, I have always been the guy that ends up setting up the PA, monitor system. I have also supplied monitor wedges. I got tired of lugging them around and finding electricity for everything. I suggested going to in-ears mainly to lessen my load. It has it's good points and bad points. Isolating a guitar cabinet is harder than I had hoped. I prefer a live cabinet. The reduction in stage volume is substantial and the FOH guy loves it. It takes less electricity to run the in-ear stuff. It takes some getting used to, but I think in the long run the pros outweigh the cons.

[Horace]

Man, that sounds really scary to me. Glad you handled it like a pro and everything worked out great for you !

[212Mavguy]

Kuz,

 

Thank you for your clarification, and for your comment in the last line especially in your quick and kindly worded response.

 

I supplied three amps for the church stage last summer, and it's a 100 mile round trip from home. I do participate as an unpaid volunteer. We have positions for a Hammond B3/Leslie 122, a baby grand, two electronic keyboards/synths, an electronic drum kit, congas, bass guitar, two guitars, a soprano sax and flute. There are around six choirs rotating through services of varying ages and compositions. So our complexity brought abut by success and growth became our problem that the new equipment was brought in at huge dollar cost cost to remedy.

[212Mavguy]

Well, it is simply the most amazing musical privelege I have ever enjoyed in my entire life to have the place where I get to be on stage, with the entire choir to the right of me and the entire band to my left doing gospel music with the utmost in intensity, concentration, and joy. The person who stands in my position gets to play in a band surrounded by other members with superiorly gifted musical abilities compared to the occupant of that spot. With that privelege comes responsibility to strive to deserve to be there.

[Kuz]

Sorry if my post came across as "high and mighty". Believe me I have had my share of complaints and even a few heated arguments with the keyboardist/praise director.

 

Reguadless if playing is for a higher cause or not, I would not be happy at all spending 3K on new equipment and not be included in the new plan.

 

Good luck and I hope it works out, plus I would pray for a solution.

[Guest HRB853370]

A few of you know that I play in a gospel band at a Baptist Church. I furnished all of the stage equipment used for my position. I started out playing through a Siegmund Midnight Blues Breaker head and a pair of closed back 2/12/s stacked. I wanted a lot of cone area to move a lot of air at lower volumes and also have the dynamics to keep up with the brothas and sistahs in the choir when they get crankin'. I liked the tone that I was getting a lot, it had a very human vocal quality and would sing like a Dumble when I pushed down on the volume pedal during sustaining notes. My favorite amp voices for Gospel are ones having human and/or organ-like sounds within their clean and dirty palette... The problem I had with this amp was that it was a one channel amp. I prefer a two channel tube preamp, avoiding SS dirt boxes for my personal tones. So I bought an 80's (#124 high plate skyliner tonestack) Dumble clone and a Leslie G27 speaker for it, set it up, tubed it out with old stock glass and played through it for quite a few Sundays, it was a very sweet rig...WAS.

 

The Church had contracted with a sound company to come in and redo the building's sound system. The Musicians were not consulted on how this was to be done. Work finished day before yesterday. The large sanctuary had hundreds of square feet of acoustic damping panels installed on the walls, new insulating ceiling panels, new video cams, new flatscreen at the back, two 8X10 projection screens in front, all new state of the art rackmount amps, completely new sound board and recording/editing board for CD production, new PA speakers suspended from the ceiling, and new in ear monitors and floor shakers for the musicians taking places of their amps on stage...after I has spent about 3500 bucks on my church rig within the last year.

 

I was ready for them. I had incorporated a 100 watt rated Weber MASS attenuator/tonestack equipped balanced line out direct box in my rig from the beginning. My precious Leslie (My PREEEEECIIOOOUS!) ahh, JK. The g27 is at the moment an expensive guitar amp stand. I won't say how concerned I was at the beginning. But I met the fearless leader of the sound company, we had words and reached understanding with a few agree to disagrees in opinions. If I have it right that our stalwart HOC member Kuz plays in a church with out "amp on stage," I was about to join the "Kuz club."

 

Day before yesterday I came in for band practice, set up my rig, got trained on the use of the in ear monitor mixers from Aviom, and did a brief band practice, followed by choir rehearsal.

 

Yesterday morning I got there and had to go to the bathroom to figure out in a mirror how to stick in the earphones in, they have wires that pass over the top of each ear and meet in the back under my suitcoat and vest, through a belt loop, then connected to anothe extension cable to the stand mounted personal monitor mixer. I walked up on stage and took up my position, and one of the first things I noticed was now there was a bright stage light suspended from the ceiling squarely focused on my eyes, it hurt like the Sun to look at it. I t also made me think that the lighting made think that I might look even more conspicuous in being the only white boy in the band...I joked about how I look like I was glowing in the dark and got a few laughs. The tones of my guitar coming through my earplugs did not sound like my own tones, but I know that what was coming out in the front of the house speakers was pretty close to my stage rig tones, but much more harmonically detailed in the upper mids and top end, very accurate, HIFI reproduction of what was coming out of the output transformer of my amp instead the speaker of an amp cab. The effect is starrtling at first. I hear the mids and treble in my ears, the bass and kick drum come up from the bottom, I hear them through the bones of my skeleton coming up from the under stage floor mounted transducers. So now I am disconnected from my amp on stage and only get to hear it through this setup from now on...But I'm better off than the other guitar player, he had just bought a new anp too and he did not have a direct out from it, so his amp had to totally go away, he only could play though his fx bod direct into the board. The bass player's Ampeg SVT and 8/10 cab had to go away. No speakers on stage. The Leslie was banished to a back room to be miced. I lost one of my fave stage buddies in that 122.

 

Until the contractor sound guy leaves.

 

I have a few mics and cables around the house, and will get the toys to mount my "amp stand" Leslie to pick up the top and bottom rotors and put that effect back into the house through the main board. There's room for expandability within the new equipment.

 

So yesterday morning, the 8:00 service came and there I was, playing through the new setup. When I put it on the day before, and the band mix started coming through the new equipment for my first time experience, I was grinning within 5 minutes and having a good time. About half way through the third number the left earpiece gently fell out and plopped onto my guitar strp on my shoulder. Now I had one ear for the house and one ear for my monitor, I kept on til the end of the song and put it back in, then later on the right earpiece fell out. At the 11:00 service, the drummer uses an electronic drum kit, which is pretty silent not amplified compared to the real thing. I look over at her and her eyes are really big, she says that she can't hear anything...I asked her where her earpieces are, she said on the floor, they fell out while playing, this is a big black woman close to 300 pounds who really smacks the skins and every part of her body is moving in every direction all the time if you get the idea. So in the middle of the number I stop playing, put my guitar in the stand and squeeze myself behind her, while she was still smacking away, reinserted each earpiece, doing my best to not make it painful. Went back to my spot, picked up my guitar and continued on. The guys in the sound room were having a fit at first trying to figger out what I was up to at first. I found it humorous.

 

The overall verdict from a DIEHARD "I won't let any soundman compromise or ruin my tone" guitar player was that for the audience, things were better sounding by far. The other guitar player and I were heading up to the booth when the contractor met us, he was already looking for us, he said that for the first time he could hear what we were doing in the quiet passages, or when we were sitting way back in the pocket noodling, so the new equipment worked as it was supposed to. Personally, if I hear a bass or keyboard, I can go by seat of pants to whatever get tossed at us, but some of the musicians needed to hear the choir as well as more/other instruments so as to figger out their parts. Our performing style is practice a piece 3-4 times total, then go for it. Only a couple of the keyboard players read or ever use sheet music. We play by ear, and the choir learns their parts by ear also. Many time in services the band is called upon to perform songs not rehearsed, in a spontaneous moment of a member, deacon, or pastor breaking out in song. With my stage rig, I could bend down to the amp cab and find the root. Now there is no more safety net, have to guess via perfect or imperfect pitch and hit the note on the fretboard, so now I have to hit and slide to the right spot while making it sound like I meant to do that. I get it right about half the time, and will keep training my pitch recognition. I love hearing all the members of the band and choir though the earpieces, even though I have a more than decent ear, it made it muuuuuuuuch easier for me to play and find my space within the improvisations my position calls for. The Aviom reps were great to work with once we started talking to each other.

 

But the nicest thing is that as a future rock star that never will be... someday when I'm really well known and famous and get to play on a major TV production like the Grammys or Oscars I'll already know how to work with a variety of stage setups...

 

PFFFFFFFFFT.

 

;~)

 

I tried to read through this, but couldn't make it past the first paragraph.....!

[GuitArtMan]

I also play at church - have done so for about the past 12 years or so. I also use a small combo mic'd because I want to hear myself. It's always a battle with the sound guy telling me to turn down and me telling him I'm only turning up so I can hear over the drums/monitors. Even with the drums in a plexi glass booth they are the ludest thing on stage and drive the stage volume up. Also, for whatever reason the dang sound guy likes to run the monitors HOT. I'm often telling him to turn mine down or sometimes simply pointing it face down!

 

Our sanctuary is horrible for sound. A big square box. We put up some sound pannels about 10 years back or so to try and control all the reflections in the room, only to promplty have dome darned dectorting commitee hang banners over them that completely defect the purpose! One of out big challenges is the stage mix affecting the santuarly mix and the sancuary mix affecting the stage mix. I see a time in out future where we will most likely go all digital, but I do not look forward to that day.

[Kuz]

I also play at church - have done so for about the past 12 years or so. I also use a small combo mic'd because I want to hear myself. It's always a battle with the sound guy telling me to turn down and me telling him I'm only turning up so I can hear over the drums/monitors. Even with the drums in a plexi glass booth they are the ludest thing on stage and drive the stage volume up. Also, for whatever reason the dang sound guy likes to run the monitors HOT. I'm often telling him to turn mine down or sometimes simply pointing it face down!

 

Our sanctuary is horrible for sound. A big square box. We put up some sound pannels about 10 years back or so to try and control all the reflections in the room, only to promplty have dome darned dectorting commitee hang banners over them that completely defect the purpose! One of out big challenges is the stage mix affecting the santuarly mix and the sancuary mix affecting the stage mix. I see a time in out future where we will most likely go all digital, but I do not look forward to that day.

 

If we ever go all digital, (and right now I highly doubt it, too expensive and we are expanding the building for more children's classrooms), I will use my Axe-Fx. The nice thing about the Axe-Fx is I can run one out to the main PA and another to personal in-ear monitors or to a powered monitor where I can adjust the volume of the monitor.

[H]

 

 

I tried to read through this, but couldn't make it past the first paragraph.....!

Well, I'm glad you included the entire post in your reply so we could all read it again then

[yoslate]

Well, it is simply the most amazing musical privelege I have ever enjoyed in my entire life to have the place where I get to be on stage, with the entire choir to the right of me and the entire band to my left doing gospel music with the utmost in intensity, concentration, and joy. The person who stands in my position gets to play in a band surrounded by other members with superiorly gifted musical abilities compared to the occupant of that spot. With that privelege comes responsibility to strive to deserve to be there.

 

 

Post of the Month, right here, boys and girls! Can I get a witness...!?

[DetroitBlues]

I must have to check out new churches to see how exactly bands of such needs fit into gospel. Other than an occasional horn or flute section, you don't hear much past the organ/piano player in the Catholic Church... But at least its over in an hour.

[Kuz]

 

 

Post of the Month, right here, boys and girls! Can I get a witness...!?

 

+1

[Horace]

A favorite 'act' of mine is Lee Williams and the Spritual Q.C.s ( Qualified Christians ) out of Tupelo, Mississippi. I saw them on a Sunday morning gospel show a few years back and that week bought all their albums. Check them out sometime. I would lve to play in an enseble like that. As we say here in Boston, you're wicked lucky to have that gig 212Mavguy.

 

Horace

[Doug]

I played in the praise band as a fill-in a few months ago... There were probably five or six songs that we were doing and I was sent the music (in text file and MP3 formats) and attempted to learn the pieces without practicing with the band - I would be out of town and unavailable on that night. The band got together an hour before our late (hootenanny) service performance and went through the songs once. I struggled through every song except one that I hadn't received an MP3 sample of. I just couldn't fake my way through that one, and we had another guitar player that would cover lead - I was playing acoustic rhythm guitar. I mentioned to him that he'd probably have to carry that last song and he said fine.

 

When we had finished playing and the church was emptying out the sound guy came rushing up to the alter to speak to me, apologizing for some sort of sound snafu during that last song. He said "I'm so sorry, I don't know what happened but I wasn't picking anything up from your guitar on that last song". I told him not to worry about it, that I was just pretending to play.

[Guest HRB853370]

 

 

Post of the Month, right here, boys and girls! Can I get a witness...!?

 

Umm, no.

[Kuz]

 

I tried to read through this, but couldn't make it past the first paragraph.....!

 

Umm, no.

 

You really seem to be unpleasant today Will. Bad week of the month?

[yoslate]

 

Umm, no.

 

 

Counter proposal, then...? I'll gladly defer.

[DetroitBlues]

I played in the praise band as a fill-in a few months ago... There were probably five or six songs that we were doing and I was sent the music (in text file and MP3 formats) and attempted to learn the pieces without practicing with the band - I would be out of town and unavailable on that night. The band got together an hour before our late (hootenanny) service performance and went through the songs once. I struggled through every song except one that I hadn't received an MP3 sample of. I just couldn't fake my way through that one, and we had another guitar player that would cover lead - I was playing acoustic rhythm guitar. I mentioned to him that he'd probably have to carry that last song and he said fine.

 

When we had finished playing and the church was emptying out the sound guy came rushing up to the alter to speak to me, apologizing for some sort of sound snafu during that last song. He said "I'm so sorry, I don't know what happened but I wasn't picking anything up from your guitar on that last song". I told him not to worry about it, that I was just pretending to play.

 

I remember the advice I had on my first gig when I was the rhythm guitarist... If I get lost or forget what I'm doing, turn the volume off on the guitar and start strumming like crazy!

[smurph1]

I've wanted to try the in ear deals, but I am so "Old School" Just totally connected to my amp tone..Luckily I just play acoustic in church, out tech slaps a shotgun mic in front of me and we are golden..At least until I start playing..LOL

[rooster]

FWIW, I use the new $100 Shure earphones these days for in-ear monitors when I play out, and they stay in my ears really well. The sound is fantastic on them, and they are built very well; the cables can unplug from the earpieces for replacement of the individual parts as needed. Not up to some of the newer hifi in-ear plugs, but they're very well made, sound great, and stay in my ears very well.

 

rooster.