H-150 vs H-157 any tone difference?

[Wolfi]

I agree with Marshall. The best word to describe the tonal differences between a 150 & 157 (Les Paul Std & Custom), is the sound is tighter with the mids being scooped a little also, especially noticeable with distortion.

 

That's absolutely what I hear. The 157 (LP Custom) sounds more defined and from my opinion, it's more versatile than the H 150 (LP Standard). The 157 sounds tighter and a bit brighter and a bit bassier than the 150. The 150 for me has more midth's.

It's the same with the 535 and the 555.

[Bonefish]

Just came across an interesting article: http://www.frudua.com/sound_of_electric_guitar_wood.htm. I have not given the article a thorough read, so I'm not sure how much stock to put into it. In one of the other articles on that site he shares this interesting story (not sure if it's true):

 

While maple was at first the wood Fender choose for its fretboards, it was suddenly replaced by indian rosewood in 1959 on the Fender guitars, it appears for marketing and competition reasons ("The Fender Stratocaster - A.R.Duchossoir.").

 

After some time Leo Fender realized that the introduction of rosewood, an oily wood, had a negative impact on tone and on neck stability (the two woods tend to react in different ways to environmental and climatic changes) so he gradually reduced the rosewood thickness to almost a veneer (2 to 3mm) till in 1967 maple fretboards were re-introduced, first as a option, and finally for good in 1970.

[bolero]

that's interesting but I don't give it much credence: there are boatloads of rosewood board '50s, '60's , '70's + fender's still out there, alive & kicking

 

myself I prefer a rosewood board Fender over maple

[Bonefish]

that's interesting but I don't give it much credence: there are boatloads of rosewood board '50s, '60's , '70's + fender's still out there, alive & kicking

 

myself I prefer a rosewood board Fender over maple

 

Agreed! I have a hard time saying one fretboard is superior to the other. However, what's interesting is how much information there is out there (books, sites, blogs, boards, etc) that clearly state that different fretboards yield different tones. Specifically, a rosewood fretboard has a distinctly different sound than a Maple or Ebony neck. I had not read any information about this before trying my 157 for the first time. However, I did notice that it sounded brighter and clearer than the 150.

 

I can see how the neck would be extremely important as that would be critical for sustain and such, but the fretboard baffles me a bit. I guess it is the point of contact for the frets. Also, pickups are electromagnetic and so pickup the vibrations of the strings (not the wood). So, when a string is plucked it vibrates and creates sound waves. What impacts how the string vibrates? I'm guessing it would include (note, this list only includes items specifically related to guitar and does not include influences of musician such as fingers, slides, pick position, etc):

1. Energy transfer at points of contact
   
   1. 
      
   2. Nut
      
   3. Bridge
      
   4. Tuners
      
   5. Saddle
      
   6. Strength of neck (weak neck would have less sustain)
      
   7. Resonance of neck.
      
   8. Strength of Neck Joint (weak joint would have less sustain)
      
   9. Frets
      
   10. Torque of guitar (guitar has slight side to side and front to back torque from string vibrating)
       
   11. Any chambering or routing of guitar body that may impact strength or resonance
       

[*]Energy tranfer through reflected sound waves back onto strings

1. Material of guitar top (and it's thickness)
   
2. If the cap of guitar body is sufficiently thin than the material underneath may also impact the reflected wavelength
   
3. Material of fretboard (and it's thickness)
   
4. Material of neck
   
5. Pickups (I've heard that the magnetism in the pickups can have a dampening effect on vibration, I have no idea if this is true).
   

[*]Tranfer of sound through pickups (this is a science unto itself and so I'm not going to dig into this one).

1. Pickups
   
2. Electronics
   

Of course, some of these may be more important than others, and pending how you mix and match some may completely offset another (e.g. lousy neck joing could eliminate all sustain in spite of everything else being in check). This was all off the top of my head and so it may be totally absurd. However, it is interesting to think about, especially knowing that each guitar from Heritage is unique and that no two are exactly like. They are going to be different for different reasons including simple variances in construction as they are handbuilt, different wood characteristics (e.g. a piece of curly maple from the middle of tree will have different resonant characteristics than one from the outside), and different appointments (wood choice, etc).

[bolero]

Well sure the string is contacting the fret, but the tone generated by the string is affected by the material in the neck/body

 

I don't even know why anyone is arguing this point it has been pretty established over a few centuries of instrument manufacturing

[FredZepp]

Very few would argue that a maple capped body on a Les Paul sounds different than an all mahogany version.... So it stands to reason that the wood used on the fretboard could also affect the tone in some way..

[FredZepp]

Very few would argue that a maple capped body on a Les Paul doesn't sound different than an all mahogany version.... So it stands to reason that the wood used on the fretboard could also affect the tone in some way..

I meant to say this...

[Bonefish]

Well sure the string is contacting the fret, but the tone generated by the string is affected by the material in the neck/body

 

I don't even know why anyone is arguing this point it has been pretty established over a few centuries of instrument manufacturing

 

Sorry if it appears I'm arguing here. I'm not at all interested in that. My background is in engineering and so I'm very interested in the dynamics of how tone transfer and tone coloring occurs in the context of an electric guitar. Since this discussion began i've done some very light research and most of what I've found has been the same type of information presented on this thread; unsubstantiated, poorly validated anecdotal evidence stated as fact.

 

Also, if you have centuries of information regarding this topic, I would love to see it (has electric been around for centuries???)

[Guest HRB853370]

This lack of gas has made you a grumpy Gus.

 

Hmm you are not the first to observe that BB. Mr. Tulk1 has also made that observation. Since this GAS-LESS state has made my disposition the equivalent of having PMS, I have to cure it. I think I know what I want, and maybe even need. In fact, I already bought it and am awaiting for it to arrive. More to come under a different thread.

[bolero]

Sorry if it appears I'm arguing here. I'm not at all interested in that. My background is in engineering and so I'm very interested in the dynamics of how tone transfer and tone coloring occurs in the context of an electric guitar. Since this discussion began i've done some very light research and most of what I've found has been the same type of information presented on this thread; unsubstantiated, poorly validated anecdotal evidence stated as fact.

 

Also, if you have centuries of information regarding this topic, I would love to see it (has electric been around for centuries???)

 

ha, sorry Bonefish I wasn't targeting you specifically, I was just making a general comment on the whole matter!!

 

in fact your post was very interesting

 

for sound & material properties there are lots of books & resources out there...electric guitar is just amplifying what is fundamentally acoustic, re: the "been around for centuries" bit

 

apologies if my post seemed antagonistic, I was just making a wry observation

[Bonefish]

 

ha, sorry Bonefish I wasn't targeting you specifically, I was just making a general comment on the whole matter!!

 

in fact your post was very interesting

 

for sound & material properties there are lots of books & resources out there...electric guitar is just amplifying what is fundamentally acoustic, re: the "been around for centuries" bit

 

apologies if my post seemed antagonistic, I was just making a wry observation

 

No worries, I'm glad for the discussion (and have a fine appreciation of wry). Speaking of the discussion, I don't think the theory of tone as it relates to acoustic stringed instrument completely applies here. The study of vibrations and energy transfer as it relates to the the transfer of energy to the strings would apply. However, the dynamics behind how a solid body electric and a hollow body acoustic generate tone are completely different. A guitar pick-up only picks up the vibration of the string, any sound generated by the wood doesn't actually matter unless the energy of that vibration is somehow tranferred back to the strings and so impact their vibration. An acoustics tone is largely determined by the sound that comes out of the sound hole regardless of the impact it has on the strings on the way out.

[FredZepp]

Here are some interesting comments on the subject.. http://doeringerguit...lectric-guitar/

 

Once all of the other factors are considered we can now discuss the wooden parts of the guitar.

 

Neck – Tonewoods used in the neck have to be strong, rigid and resistant to warping. Out of the three pieces of the guitar that are made from wood, the neck has the most bearing on sound, but since the options so are limited, so are the tonal differences available. Traditionally maple is used most in necks and will have a brighter tone than mahogany which has a warm tone and runs a distant 2nd in popularity. There are many other woods that can be used in neck construction but not every tonewood is good neck wood. Alder is a great body wood but will turn sound to mush in a neck, provided you could even tune the thing.

 

Fretboard (or Finger Boards) – Many woods can be used as a fretboard but there are three that are widely used. Rosewood is the most commonly used and has the warmest sound out of the three. Maple and Ebony have a brighter tone. To avoid killing tone or having dead spots, great care is needed in securely attaching this to the neck.

 

Body: The body of the guitar provides the builder/designer with the most options to color the tone of the instrument. Most woods are sturdy enough to be made into a body, and most will sound ok. I have heard several pine and plywood body guitars that sounded perfectly fine for many uses. Before you start burning me in effigy for saying that, they are usually not worth the time to build…so don’t do it. Body woods can range from warm sounding, to bright, to snappy, to scooped and everywhere in between. Shape matters very little as long as there is enough wood under and around the strings. See Mass below.

 

So, does wood have an influence on the sound of an electric guitar or bass? YES definitely! Does wood influence the sound more than any other detail? No, not by a long shot. The truth is that many factors will determine tone, AND those same factors will change how much your choice of woods, will impact the sound of your instrument.

[bolero]

I would think the quality of the sound of an electric is just as affected by the wood as an acoustic. The quantity ( how much of the sound is amplified acoustically ) is where the hollow body or dread naught design has a larger impact, between the two...while the physical dimensions of an acoustic can influence tone, I think the wood has more tone influence and the chambers mainly serve to amplify the sound.

 

Obviously these overlap its not cut & dry

 

This is what I think anyway....

[bolero]

actually I thought a bit more about this on the train home...not that we haven't overthought this whole topic already!!

 

you could argue that since an electric has none of the extra design features of an acoustic ( different bracing patterns, acoustic chambers shapes & sizes, different internal woods used for all that etc ) to affect the sound, the type of wood used has MORE of an impact on the tone

[Bonefish]

actually I thought a bit more about this on the train home...not that we haven't overthought this whole topic already!!

 

you could argue that since an electric has none of the extra design features of an acoustic ( different bracing patterns, acoustic chambers shapes & sizes, different internal woods used for all that etc ) to affect the sound, the type of wood used has MORE of an impact on the tone

 

Interesting thoughts and I agree with you!!! My thought wasn't that an acoustic guitar's wood has more or less influence, just different. Surely there are some research or books out there somewhere!!! I'm about to go get a PhD in mechanical engineering now that I'm inspired in a subject and have a topic where I could contribute.

[Bonefish]

Not implying that I have anything to contribute at this point, but with enough study, testing and research there would be...

[TalismanRich]

Bonefish, I understand your skepticism about the drastic tonal effects of the wood. I didn't think it made much difference either but it still seemed like the differences were there anyway. It took a change in my perspective on how the sound is generated to start to understand what might be going on.

 

Earlier this year, the Louisville Science Center put on a display about guitars. The main part of the exhibit was lots of different guitars, and stringed predecessors to the guitar (some several hundred years old.)

 

One part had several blocks of wood, rosewood, maple, mahogany, plywood, ebony. Each block was about 1 x 3 x 8 inches. There was a beater for the kids to knock on the wood like a xylophone. The differences in the sound of each wood was astonishing to say the least. Rosewood and mahogany were both quite dead sounding compared to the maple and plywood. The display talked a little about how the density, cell structure and hardness of the wood affected the characteristic tone.

 

Now, step back a think about a guitar. When you strum a guitar, unplugged, you can hear the characteristic vibration of the woods. In a perfect world, with infinite rigidity and minimal transfer (LOSS) of energy from the string to the guitar, the string would ring forever as the energy loss would be insignificant. You would ONLY get sound from the string vibrating the air, which would be minimal.

 

In the real world, the transfer of vibrational energy from the string to the body and neck of the guitar will be dependent on the characteristic resonance of the wood. If the wood damps the vibrations quickly and broadly, it will lower the length of time the string can vibrate (lower sustain). If the wood is very rigid, you'll get more sustain.

 

Now think of the wood as a filter... its not creating the vibration, its filtering out frequencies selectively depending on the characteristic resonance patterns of the wood. On an acoustic its about trying to amplify those resonances into moving air. You shape the box to try to broaden the response pattern. In an electric, it will color the harmonic vibration of the string, which the pickup then amplifies. If a particular wood tends to dampen vibrations in the 300 to 500 Hz range, then you will bleed those frequencies off more quickly as the vibration transfers through the metal bridge into the wood. That might be heard as losing second and third harmonics of a 150 Hz fundamental. If it excites and resonates at 800 Hz, you would expect it to set up a resonant peak at that area of the spectrum. That could be a strong second harmonic of a 400 Hz tone. or a 4th harmonic of a 200 Hz tone.

 

You hear this to some degree if you get a guitar to feed back steadily through an amp with a pure tone. There, you have hit the particular resonant where the amp can feed enough energy to vibrate the wood, which then transfers to the string which is fed back to the amp. You'll usually only find a few selective notes where this will occur. Change the wood, you'll change those frequencies.

 

I never thought about the wood as being a filter. If you look at it that way, it seems to make more sense to me.

[bolero]

very interesting stuff, thx Rich!!

[Bonefish]

Bonefish, I understand your skepticism about the drastic tonal effects of the wood.

 

I never thought about the wood as being a filter. If you look at it that way, it seems to make more sense to me.

 

Rich - Great response! What started this whole thread was my surprise at the difference in tone between the 1996 H150 I had and the H157 I replaced it with. I noticed a brightness and clarity to the tone that many attribute to an ebony fretboard. And on this thread there have been several H157 owners who have noticed the same thing and some who haven't.

 

Anyhow, I have such a small sample size and such little information that I am very open minded with regards to the impact wood choice has on tone (especially the fretboard). So, I've been grateful for all those who have contributed to the conversation and found your post especially interesting.

[bolero]

yeah there ya go...it'd be good to hear your thoughts after you apply some engineering/analytical tools to the whole thing

 

some kind of spectrum analyzer with a single fretted string contraption you could screw into different pieces of wood, so all variables other than the wood are equal

 

then you could get data on variables within the same tree species, and even different cuts of wood. as well as different species

[TalismanRich]

BTW, the display that I attended is a traveling show. Here's the current schedule. They had some interesting stuff, especially for a gear hound!

 

http://nationalguitarmuseum.com/

 

“GUITAR: The Instrument That Rocked The World.”

The History, Science, and Cultural Impact of the Most Popular Instrument. Ever.

• The Exhibit: Now Open at the Carnegie Science Center in Pittsburgh through September 30! •

 

• • •

 

Carnegie Science Center / Pittsburgh, PA: June 16 - September 30, 2012

Science Museum of Virginia / Richmond, VA: October 13 - January 4, 2013

The Springfield Museum / Springfield, MA: January 18 - April 21, 2013

The Museum Of Idaho / Idaho Falls, ID – Yellowstone: June 1 – November 30, 2013

Liberty Science Center / Liberty State Park, NJ: October 15, 2014 – January 15, 2015