big bob Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 This is the start of my tube combo shoot out Amp = champ circuit with larger transformers. Cab= weber 2x12 with two 100 watt weber axis ( fane copy) 1st test Recto = 5u4 Power = Mesa el34 Pre= 12ax7 china The amp runs noisy with this set up... Background hum even with no guitar attached. Really early tube breakup, think 2/3 Fizzy/fuzzy sound works nice with the Dano distortion pedal. Hard to get a clean tone... No headroom really at all. Not as much volume as I would have expected. Test 2 Recto = sylvenia 5y3gt made in USA Power= Mesa el34 Pre= 12ax7 ma in china
big bob Posted July 12, 2012 Author Posted July 12, 2012 This is the start of my tube combo shoot out Amp = champ circuit with larger transformers. Cab= weber 2x12 with two 100 watt weber axis ( fane copy) 1st test Recto = 5u4 Power = Mesa el34 Pre= 12ax7 china The amp runs noisy with this set up... Background hum even with no guitar attached. Really early tube breakup, think 2/3 Fizzy/fuzzy sound works nice with the Dano distortion pedal. Hard to get a clean tone... No headroom really at all. Not as much volume as I would have expected. Test 2 Recto = sylvenia 5y3gt made in USA Power= Mesa el34 Pre= 12ax7 ma in china Has some operation noise/hum at the loud end of the acceptable range for me Breakup comes at about 4/5 grainy sound, get too grainy/fizzy maxed Nice sound quality, more top end, great mids, more bass More headroom than test 1, takes pedals well but gets fuzzy with dirt pedals fast! Test 3 Recto = new version sovetck 5 y3 gt made in Russia Power = el34 Mesa Pre = 12ax7 made in china
big bob Posted July 12, 2012 Author Posted July 12, 2012 Has some operation noise/hum at the loud end of the acceptable range for me Breakup comes at about 4/5 grainy sound, get too grainy/fizzy maxed Nice sound quality, more top end, great mids, more bass More headroom than test 1, takes pedals well but gets fuzzy with dirt pedals fast! Test 3 Recto = new version sovetck 5 y3 gt made in Russia Power = el34 Mesa Pre = 12ax7 made in china Pretty much the same as test 2 however this has more operational noise/ hum And more overall volume with just a little earlier breakup Just a little fizzer.. Not as smooth when the amp is set clean. Next test will be Recto= 5u4 magnavox made in USA Power = JJ 6l6 gc Pre= 12ax7= made in china
DetroitBlues Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 Hmm, wonder what you can do to reduce the hum/noise when there isn't a guitar plugged in?
big bob Posted July 12, 2012 Author Posted July 12, 2012 Pretty much the same as test 2 however this has more operational noise/ hum And more overall volume with just a little earlier breakup Just a little fizzer.. Not as smooth when the amp is set clean. Next test will be Recto= 5u4 magnavox made in USA Power = JJ 6l6 gc Pre= 12ax7= made in china Loud operational noise/hum and it fizzy like a bug zapper Breaks up about 4/5 Has a lot of top end chime, and a big bass Mids are there but not outstanding Pedals make the operational noise too loud. This mix has the most volume so far but not useable volume More headroom than the el34 Next up Recto = 5y3gt sylvenia made in USA Power= JJ 6l6 Pre= 12ax7 china
big bob Posted July 12, 2012 Author Posted July 12, 2012 Loud operational noise/hum and it fizzy like a bug zapper Breaks up about 4/5 Has a lot of top end chime, and a big bass Mids are there but not outstanding Pedals make the operational noise too loud. This mix has the most volume so far but not useable volume More headroom than the el34 Next up Recto = 5y3gt sylvenia made in USA Power= JJ 6l6 Pre= 12ax7 china Very little operational noise. What is present is a nice whooshing sound... Bug zapper is gone Breakup comes at about 7/8 and is crunchy Lots and lots of headroom, very chimie lots of top end Thin mids clean but come back nice and rich with pedals. This combo is great with pedals it can still be clean and clear with just reverb, but gets nice and crunchy with od and distortion This is the loudest combo so far, usable all the way through the spectrum. I would guess about 12 watts but sounds as loud as my 40 watt Marshall that runs el84s I like this combo.. Next Recto= sovtek 5y3gt Power= JJ 6v6 Pre = 12ax7 china
big bob Posted July 12, 2012 Author Posted July 12, 2012 Very little operational noise. What is present is a nice whooshing sound... Bug zapper is gone Breakup comes at about 7/8 and is crunchy Lots and lots of headroom, very chimie lots of top end Thin mids clean but come back nice and rich with pedals. This combo is great with pedals it can still be clean and clear with just reverb, but gets nice and crunchy with od and distortion This is the loudest combo so far, usable all the way through the spectrum. I would guess about 12 watts but sounds as loud as my 40 watt Marshall that runs el84s I like this combo.. Next Recto= sovtek 5y3gt Power= JJ 6v6 Pre = 12ax7 china Not really much difference.. Maybe just a little more volume Just a tad bit of fizz in the breakup Very little operational noise/hum but fizzy not whoosh Next up Recto= 5u4 magnavox Power = 6v6 tung - sol made in USA Pre = 12ax7 china
big bob Posted July 12, 2012 Author Posted July 12, 2012 Not really much difference.. Maybe just a little more volume Just a tad bit of fizz in the breakup Very little operational noise/hum but fizzy not whoosh Next up Recto= 5u4 magnavox Power = 6v6 tung - sol made in USA Pre = 12ax7 china Revision ... Power tube is a 6v6gt Some operational noise/hum not obnoxious clean but gets annoying with dirt pedals Breaks up at about 3/4 and is crunchy nice mids and bass. Breakup at max is way to fuzzy/ fizzy blurry Has a lot of mids, some headroom, looses chime at about 6/7 More volume than I would have guessed but not all usable. Next up Recto = 5y3gt sylvaina Power = tung-sol 6v6gt Pre = 12ax7
212Mavguy Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 Lance, I cringe a little bit when I see that Chinese 12ax7 in V1. It's more Cork-sniffer-Fender-y proper (pffffffft!!!) to use an American tube in V1, particularly the period correct RCA 12ax7a or 7025 shortplate. Many tubes exist that should sound even better in that circuit than that Shuguang. I do like the scientific approach of changing only one variable at a time. Another Kudo for that one. You will want to get a socket saver for v1 when you start rolling pre's... You are going to become a tube tone maven because of this amp you have built within the next 90 days, mark my words, everyone. Nice to see someone lose their store bought tone, I suspect in this case it's been gone for years. You might really go off the deep end if you have a chance to listen to some old round plate coke bottle 6f6 or 6v6's, the OD as well as the cleans are beyond exquisite. And the pulsing with pick attack soft blue glow from a coke bottle 807 or 6bg6ga looks so cool and sounds so good. Then there's the Ken-Rad 6l6g that is such a crunch monster with it's big bottom end...or one of my all time faves in a Champ circuit, a real Tung Sol 5881 with it's singing, complex mids. The real Tung Sol 6v6gt is one of my absolute fave 6v6''s in a Champ circuit.
big bob Posted July 12, 2012 Author Posted July 12, 2012 Revision ... Power tube is a 6v6gt Some operational noise/hum not obnoxious clean but gets annoying with dirt pedals Breaks up at about 3/4 and is crunchy nice mids and bass. Breakup at max is way to fuzzy/ fizzy blurry Has a lot of mids, some headroom, looses chime at about 6/7 More volume than I would have guessed but not all usable. Next up Recto = 5y3gt sylvaina Power = tung-sol 6v6gt Pre = 12ax7 Little operational noise/ hum. More pronounced with dirt pedals but not bad. Breakup clean at about 5/6 and is crunchy, warm mids, good bass Breakup at max is fizzy Takes pedals well not as chimie as the 6l6 with more mids Overall volume can get loud. Not all volume is usable... Would not use past 8/9 just too broken up. Next up Recto = sylvaina 5y3gt Power = JJ 6v6s Pre = 12ax7 china Wow... The JJ 6v6s is almost perfectly quiet... Break up is just a little bit later at 5 and is rich and crunchy.. Not as much chime as the 6l6 but does clean nice Takes pedals well but gets a little bassie with dirt pedals Sounds great at about 3/4 with the volume on the guitar cranked This is a nice combo .. Next up Recto = sylvaina 5y3gt Power 6v6gta general electric USA Pre 12ax7 china
big bob Posted July 12, 2012 Author Posted July 12, 2012 Oops my bad the 12ax7 is not Chinese is a sovtek Russia.
big bob Posted July 12, 2012 Author Posted July 12, 2012 Little operational noise/ hum. More pronounced with dirt pedals but not bad. Breakup clean at about 5/6 and is crunchy, warm mids, good bass Breakup at max is fizzy Takes pedals well not as chimie as the 6l6 with more mids Overall volume can get loud. Not all volume is usable... Would not use past 8/9 just too broken up. Next up Recto = sylvaina 5y3gt Power = JJ 6v6s Pre = 12ax7 china Wow... The JJ 6v6s is almost perfectly quiet... Break up is just a little bit later at 5 and is rich and crunchy.. Not as much chime as the 6l6 but does clean nice Takes pedals well but gets a little bassie with dirt pedals Sounds great at about 3/4 with the volume on the guitar cranked This is a nice combo .. Next up Recto = sylvaina 5y3gt Power 6v6gta general electric USA Pre 12ax7 china This is my favorite 6v6 Silent operation Breaks up about 6, nice crunchy deep, has some chime and a wicked rich bottom end Works well with pedals, gets a little dark with the dirt pedals. Not as loud as the JJ but more useable volume This is a nice set up For all the tests I have been using the 555 with Seth's and the 575 with pails for the clean tone And the firebird with Tom short pups for the pedals. Pedals include a Demeter reverbulator, a Demeter fatoverdrivulator, and a danelectro fab tone (old big metal body version) Having run through quite a few tubes these are my ending thoughts Don't much care for the 5u4 recto, it's loud and fizzy and breaks up super early. It might just be this tube? It might be this circuit? I also think the sovtek 5y3 is kinda noisy. The sylvaina 5y3 has a nice quiet operation, and a real smooth richness. It's funny because the sylvaina and the sovtek are supposed to be the same tube 5y3 gt, but they look totally different with the sovtek being much larger. In the power section I like the chime and top end of the 6l6 the best, it also has more overall volume and mo usable volume. I also think it offers the most clean headroom. The ge 6v6 has a nice rich sound but not as much headroom, with more mids and less top end. The el34 is far gainer than the others and I'll want to experiment with some different brands. I like it but not as much. Until next time Cheers
212Mavguy Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 Oops my bad the 12ax7 is not Chinese is a sovtek Russia. Now where is that airline bag when I need it? JK
Hfan Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 someone correct me if I'm wrong but I've read several times that the rectifier tube has no affect on tone..
big bob Posted July 12, 2012 Author Posted July 12, 2012 someone correct me if I'm wrong but I've read several times that the rectifier tube has no affect on tone.. it sure made a big difference for me...
big bob Posted July 12, 2012 Author Posted July 12, 2012 someone correct me if I'm wrong but I've read several times that the rectifier tube has no affect on tone.. Let me elaborate, when I say tone I'm referring to the sound that comes out of the speaker. All of it. When I changed between the 5u4 and the 5y3 there were lots of differences. One had far earlier breakup and far les output, caused more noise, and robed the sound of articulation. Did it change the mix of bottom mid and top, no. But it certainly changed the sound. The 6l6 was still a 6l6, lots of chime and bright punch. But it had far less usable volume before it turned to mush. I'm rambling, the recto tubes make a big difference in the overall sound, weather you call it tone or not is up to you. For some tone is just the tonal characteristics of the tube, and does not include things like attack, deterioration, articulation, breakup, sustain... I include all those things in the word tone.
pressure Posted July 12, 2012 Posted July 12, 2012 I believe that the 5u4 makes more voltage than the 5y3 which should show up as more volume and more breakup. Just my misinformed conclusion, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
212Mavguy Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 @Hfan... I read the same thing but man are they wrong, wrong, wrong! When you change to a different rec tube, even a different brand of the same type, that usually causes changes in voltages going to the other tubes from what rec tube was in that socket beforehand. . That causes changes in tone. I did the same things Lance is doing now 6 years ago with a similar amp circuit.. His experiences with rec tubes exactly mirror mine. It's great to see.
bolero Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 ha, Bob that is awesome...build the thing yourself & test it out with all those tube combinations!! rectifier affects the power supply so yes I'd say it has a big impact on how an amp sounds...some people even put in a switch so you can flip between SS & tube rectumfriers...spongey rectum or hard rectum!!
Hfan Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 @Hfan... I read the same thing but man are they wrong, wrong, wrong! When you change to a different rec tube, even a different brand of the same type, that usually causes changes in voltages going to the other tubes from what rec tube was in that socket beforehand. . That causes changes in tone. I did the same things Lance is doing now 6 years ago with a similar amp circuit.. His experiences with rec tubes exactly mirror mine. It's great to see. Oky dokey then, I stand corrected, one more thing we can all obsess about . Guess it is part of the fun of tube amps. I had a foggy idea that they provide heater filament voltage and change ac to dc or was it dc to ac? I was thinking of getting a spare for my deluxe anyway.
JeffB Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 ha, Bob that is awesome...build the thing yourself & test it out with all those tube combinations!! rectifier affects the power supply so yes I'd say it has a big impact on how an amp sounds...some people even put in a switch so you can flip between SS & tube rectumfriers...spongey rectum or hard rectum!! I dont know, my mesa has a switch for tube and ss rec. Truthfully I dont hear anything in it, but I do feel the difference, I think I do. A friend who builds amps has a JTM45 type clone or something similar, it also has a switch for the type of rec amongst others. I dont hear the rec tube or ss as a major tone shaping tool on that amp either. Maybe its smoother and a bit more compressed and doesnt have the same attack with the tube rec. I may have tin ears though.
Hfan Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 I dont know, my mesa has a switch for tube and ss rec. Truthfully I dont hear anything in it, but I do feel the difference, I think I do. A friend who builds amps has a JTM45 type clone or something similar, it also has a switch for the type of rec amongst others. I dont hear the rec tube or ss as a major tone shaping tool on that amp either. Maybe its smoother and a bit more compressed and doesnt have the same attack with the tube rec. I may have tin ears though. I consider myself blessed to have somewhat tin ears, adds to greater gear contentment and increased bank balances or as someone else quoted, more Mel Bay and less E Bay.
H Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 ...575 with pails... I've got one of these on my 'bucket' list
bolero Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 Well I think its most noticeable when you crank the amp with a non master volume.. otherwise the power section doesn't work that hard and the sag isn't much of a factor A small amp like this would be an ideal candidate as you won't blow the doors off at full vol
JeffB Posted July 13, 2012 Posted July 13, 2012 Well I think its most noticeable when you crank the amp with a non master volume.. otherwise the power section doesn't work that hard and the sag isn't much of a factor A small amp like this would be an ideal candidate as you won't blow the doors off at full vol I think I might be a person that only notices drastic changes and misses subtle nuances when it comes to stuff like this. I was serious when I said I may have tin ears. I find stuff like this interesting and like hearing others experience. I like to know what they are hearing and listening to or for.
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