Genericmusic Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 Most of the guys on this forum may disagree with me, but I would find the transaction unacceptable. If I were the seller and unintentionally sold a 2nd, I would offer a refund and pay for shipping both ways. Most likely the buyer would compromise. But that would be the buyer's call. If the original owner didn't get a substantial discount when he bought it new, he was ripped off. If you really expect to keep the guitar as a player a long time, it doesn't matter much that it is a 2nd. This deal upsets me because I put a bid on that guitar but was too late. It could have been my problem. I'm sure it's a great guitar. It just may not be worth the selling price. You and the seller need to work it out. There is little practical recourse otherwise. I am with Marty Grass. 2nds: nothing "wrong" other than it wasn't disclosed. BTw, I have a factory REJECT HFT 445 that is a guitar that I would keep to the very end, before all others. I absolutely love the guitar, with a cracked neck that was repaired. i'm into full disclosure otherwise renegotiate. I am certainly not among the most who would disagree with you. In fact I agree 100% I'm with these guys. Full disclosure is what a transaction is all about. You should try to reach some agreement with the former owner.
grubber Posted August 21, 2012 Author Posted August 21, 2012 This Millie is one bought from a different dude on this forum--absolutuely NOT LK155!! Lyle did a perfect job of representing his Millie and it is a remarkable guitar!! No, this one is the 2000 Millie Semi-Hollow body that was listed recently by a different forum member! This particular guitar is also beautiful and, as of last night, plays very nicely. I am planning on keeping it anyhow, an cannot decipher exactly where a flaw is--perhap in the finish....However, this is a lesson in buyer beware and full disclosure. At this point, the sale has been made. I like the guitar, and will probably never part with it. I just would have liked to have been informed beforehand that it was a 2nd. At least for bartering purposes. And Marty, I agree with you--it is unacceptable. But, I have been "screwed" much worse in other transactions on ebay, etc--hell, just try to sell your house right now and you can see what I mean. I doubt I will ever make a purchase liek this again without inspecting the guitar, or knowing that the seller is a fellow, trusted member of this group. The seller still contends that he bought it new (for $2600) and was not told it was a factory second. Also that the original receipt is handwritten and only shows the price. I will give him the benefit of the doubt because the sale is completed and the guitar is still beautiful. Shame on me for not being more investigative before the sale. I just hope that the value is not hugely affected by this moniker.
MartyGrass Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 I suggest you enjoy the guitar and let your heirs worry about the resale value. You may never find whatever flaw got it the "2" designation. Often they are subtle defects. BTW, I know of three luthiers who have extensive experience removing the "2". A couple of them did this as Gibson employees. I'm not condoning it. I'm just saying there is a market for this skill.
grubber Posted August 21, 2012 Author Posted August 21, 2012 I knew there is a way to remove that--being a luthier myself. But, I am just going to play and own her and move on. I did negotiate to a lower price (before I purchased)--and I learned a valuable lesson, again. This time by a new forum member.
totonka Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 When I purchased my 445, I pointed out the '2' on the back of the headstock. The seller acted as though he were taken aback, didn't know what I was talking about. My antennae went up at that point. I did double duty in inspecting the guitar and trying to use the '2' as a point of negotiating a lower price. It certainly did not get me 30%. In the end, I don't know what earned the guitar a '2' - it sounds, looks and plays beautifully. The way yours went down is sad to say the least, but I hope you end up enjoying your guitar.
Genericmusic Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 I am planning on keeping it anyhow, Good for you! I have a 1960 J-45 that is a designated #2. I can see the finish flaw. It doesn't worry me a bit. It is in better condition than many of its contemporaries and I have been offered large sums because of its tonal qualities. I will never part with it. I too will let my heirs worry about resale value. Enjoy your guitar.
Hfan Posted August 21, 2012 Posted August 21, 2012 When I purchased my 445, I pointed out the '2' on the back of the headstock. The seller acted as though he were taken aback, didn't know what I was talking about. My antennae went up at that point. I did double duty in inspecting the guitar and trying to use the '2' as a point of negotiating a lower price. It certainly did not get me 30%. In the end, I don't know what earned the guitar a '2' - it sounds, looks and plays beautifully. The way yours went down is sad to say the least, but I hope you end up enjoying your guitar. We hear that a lot about # 2 Heritages, usually no one can tell why it has the designation. The guy wouldn't budge?
totonka Posted August 22, 2012 Posted August 22, 2012 We hear that a lot about # 2 Heritages, usually no one can tell why it has the designation. The guy wouldn't budge? Not as much as he probably should have.
grubber Posted September 7, 2012 Author Posted September 7, 2012 Finally got a chance to get some photo's to share with you. I cant see why it's a "2". In one of the photos of the neck, you can see a tiny set of white dots that seem to be under the nitro--maybe that is why. Not sure, but you can see, she is a beauty: http://s1075.photobucket.com/albums/w435/pingrubber/Millie%20Eagle/
bolero Posted September 7, 2012 Posted September 7, 2012 wow that thing looks absolutely stunning!! I can't see why it would be a 2nd, unless maybe some of the neck inlays aren't 100% centered between the frets? hard to tell from the angle of the shots either way it wouldn't bother me, that is a work of art!!
DavesNotHere Posted September 7, 2012 Posted September 7, 2012 I suggest you enjoy the guitar and let your heirs worry about the resale value. You may never find whatever flaw got it the "2" designation. Often they are subtle defects. BTW, I know of three luthiers who have extensive experience removing the "2". A couple of them did this as Gibson employees. I'm not condoning it. I'm just saying there is a market for this skill. That's worse than than non-disclosure. That's willful and intentional fraud. Although unlikely, a non-disclosed "2" designation could be an oversight of a seller who had no knowledge what it meant And that is a spectacular guitar!
High Flying Bird Posted September 8, 2012 Posted September 8, 2012 I carried this "2" from Huntsville, AL to Kalamazoo, MI. Here I am just south of Muncie.
chico Posted September 8, 2012 Posted September 8, 2012 I carried this "2" from Huntsville, AL to Kalamazoo, MI. Here I am just south of Muncie. LOL... hey bird, the Railroads and Operation Lifesaver are targeting professional photographers (and amateurs) that use railroads in their photo prop. Like, a bridal wedding party all posed together in their fancy gowns on some mainline RR track... Operation Lifesaver is a non profit trying to get the word out about danger on the tracks for drivers and trespassers.. but i won't tell cause I like your pitcher!
DetroitBlues Posted September 8, 2012 Posted September 8, 2012 That guitar is nearly perfect. Perhaps a stamp was placed on it just so someone picked it from the factory without a dealer. Who knows. But that is a stunning guitar no matter what. As long as you didn't pay for the guitar at a new price, I'm sure it was a deal. I'd imagine several in here would have paid the same price you did knowing it was a factory second.
MartyGrass Posted September 8, 2012 Posted September 8, 2012 That's worse than than non-disclosure. That's willful and intentional fraud. If you are referring to the luthiers that finish over the "2" on the headstock, it does seem shady to me also. That sort of thing happened more often than you might think back in the Gibson days in Kalamazoo. Employees could put a soft impression "2" by the serial number and buy it at a huge discount from Gibson. When they got it home they could place a wet cloth on the area to make the wood swell, dab a little finish on it, and coat the area with nitro. They could then sell it. The stamp that impressed the 2 was spring loaded. When used properly it made a deep 2. But the stamp could be hand pressed without the spring, allowing for a very shallow 2. The shift supervisor had to approve the stamp, but at least one of them was quite lenient. (I won't drop any names here.) I doubt anything like that could happen at Heritage since they are producing maybe 20 guitars a week. It could and did happen at Gibson, which put out up to 500 guitars a day. I was a kid at the time and knew none of this. But I had no problem finding affordable 330s, 335s, 345s, and 355s in Kalamazoo with money I made working on a paper route and at a party store. That was simply normal in Kalamazoo.
kbp810 Posted September 8, 2012 Posted September 8, 2012 For something that beautiful to get a 2 put on the back has got to be the ultimate testimony of quality and attention to detail Has anyone ever taken a "2" to PSP and asked one of them to point out the flaw? Just curious - on most 2's I've seen I sure couldn't pick it out!
High Flying Bird Posted September 8, 2012 Posted September 8, 2012 Has anyone ever taken a "2" to PSP and asked one of them to point out the flaw? Just curious - on most 2's I've seen I sure couldn't pick it out! I asked about the 475 and they couldn't find the flaw.
bolero Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 yeah that's the ticket..I'm going to start taking a small #2 punch with me whenever I look at guitars!! "hey, did you know this gtr is a factory 2nd?"
Fernando Posted September 9, 2012 Posted September 9, 2012 Maybe the flaw is that number 2 on the headstock.
DavesNotHere Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 If you are referring to the luthiers that finish over the "2" on the headstock, it does seem shady to me also. That sort of thing happened more often than you might think back in the Gibson days in Kalamazoo. Employees could put a soft impression "2" by the serial number and buy it at a huge discount from Gibson. When they got it home they could place a wet cloth on the area to make the wood swell, dab a little finish on it, and coat the area with nitro. They could then sell it. The stamp that impressed the 2 was spring loaded. When used properly it made a deep 2. But the stamp could be hand pressed without the spring, allowing for a very shallow 2. The shift supervisor had to approve the stamp, but at least one of them was quite lenient. (I won't drop any names here.) I doubt anything like that could happen at Heritage since they are producing maybe 20 guitars a week. It could and did happen at Gibson, which put out up to 500 guitars a day. I was a kid at the time and knew none of this. But I had no problem finding affordable 330s, 335s, 345s, and 355s in Kalamazoo with money I made working on a paper route and at a party store. That was simply normal in Kalamazoo. Yes, that was what I was referring to. But, I wonder how many got out with a "2" that were not really "2s" and then were magically no longer a "2" I can't imagine growing up in Kzoo back in the day. It must have been better than Disney World!
Guest HRB853370 Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 Yes, that was what I was referring to. But, I wonder how many got out with a "2" that were not really "2s" and then were magically no longer a "2" I can't imagine growing up in Kzoo back in the day. It must have been better than Disney World! I cannot believe fraud could actually occur.....
Bonefish Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 Wow, wish I had seen those pics before. That guitar is severely flawed. However, will take it off your hands for just a 20% discount because I'm just that nice. (ok, the truth is that I think that guitar is absolutely beautiful in every way. Love the finish, the neck is beautiful and the tailpiece is killer! I would have a hard time demanding some money back because no matter what the seller said I wouldn't be sending it back).
Gitfiddler Posted September 10, 2012 Posted September 10, 2012 After examining your close up photos, I think the only problem with that Millie is that it has a "2" on the headstock. Everything else is perfect! Back in 2000 there were more flaws in a lot more Heritage guitars that had no such stigma on their headstock. If it were me, I'd just enjoy the instrument and ignore the headstock. (Hasn't that been said a few times before?)
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