535 setup, intonation help! :)

[panosy]

Hello everybody,

 

so I just got my almost new 535, second hand and only about two months old. Great finish, looks beautiful, came with seth lovers, chunky neck (quite a lot!), new model 2012..

 

Out of the case it had some 9s gauge string (crazy), anyway I put my normal 12s, quickly set it up (not properly obviously) and took it to a rehearsal. Hm, so it plays like butter, a bit too much as I play mostly jazz and funk and the 12s in my previous guitar, a Peerless Sunset (crazy value for money) were hard, now I am thinking 13s for the Heritage. Will it take them with no trouble?

 

Also, the sound seemed rather solid-body-like compared to my Peerless (which is a semi-size but full hollow, no center block) which I expected but not to that extent. The acoustic sound does not compare at all, but then again it's a different type of thing I guess. I really like the woody tone and I hoped that the center block wouldn't take that away so much. Oh, yes, it's my first 335-type guitar with center block. Maybe it's also a pickup height thing, the sound felt kind of weak (and I have read great things about the Seths) but if I put them higher the plectrum hits the pickup rather often The bridge one was thin and trebly and the neck was pretty good but still not really..

 

Last thing, the pots, though very smooth in feel, seemed to have a rather sudden drop (both volumes and tones at about 7) which was kind of disappointing. Is that a normal thing? Could it be the pickup height again? Caps?

 

Sooo, re-reading my post I realize I am rather disappointed (or hoping I am doing something wrong), I just wanted to know if you have any advice on setup differences or something that I should check to improve things. I was really waiting for this guitar to arrive and maybe I was expecting (too) much, or maybe a proper setup will bring it back to life.. Or maybe I am not a 335/535 kind of guy?

 

Here's a photo of it, I really wish it can work out for me, it's a beautiful guitar.. Any help is more than appreciated..

 

..

[big bob]

As for string gauge, play what you like. I would not put 13's on a 535 but I don't think the pressure will hurt it. I would not go any heavier. Myself I have 9's on all my solid ans semis, 10's on my 575. As for your expectations a semi is never going to sound like a hollow body. Especially a super thin one like a 535. But they will also give you sounds not available on a solid body. The first thing I would try is adjusting your amp and effects, your semi is going to react really differently than what you had, maybe you just need to tweak your rig till you find the sound. Sometimes we get a certain sound/ tone in our head and if that's not the first one out of a set up we get disappointed. Only to realize later what they can do really is cool, just in a different way than we pconcieved.

[Kuz]

You need to have the guitar changed to "50s wiring" and that will cure your volume/tone drop off at 7. The modern wiring will cause this. Many jazziers like the modern wiring because the highs are cut rather quickly with only a slight turn of the volume knob.

 

I also would not put 13s on that guitar (frankly 12s turned to standard pitch is probably really pushing it).

 

Raise the pickups or get pickups with more output. I love the Seth neck pup, but I like you don't care for the thinner shriller bridge pup.

 

Finally, it is not a hollow body and will never have the low end of a hollow body. But putting pickup that were slightly hotter and had more mids did it for me.

[DC Ron]

Your new guitar is really very different from what you've been playing. If you don't like it I'll take it off your hands. Seriously, that's a beautiful guitar and I'm confident It can be tweaked closer to what you're looking for. That being said 13's just wouldn't be right in my opinion. Think I read on here where the boys from Heritage don't recommend above 12. That being said I have 13s on my Super Eagle, but that's an 18" carved archtop, that requires a bit more oomph to get it go. What you get with a semi is feedback resistance and sustain, while maintaining SOME of the "woody" character. (With the guitar unplugged, cup one hand over an f-hole and strum, then lift the cupped hand.) But it will never be an acoustic archtop, or even a full hollowbody. It will be a superb semi tho...Congrats!

[panosy]

Thank you for the answers.. So, of course I am not expecting it to sound like a hollow jazz box (it's not one!), but the acoustic quality (unplugged and amplified) compared to my smaller in size (all dimensions) and a lot cheaper -but no-center-block- previous guitar is night and day.

 

I spent some time today adjusting things, and the main 3 things seem to be the pickup height/balance (including the pole screws), the intonation and the tone/volume pots. I adjusted the pickups to taste (if there is any specific advice for the Seths would be nice) and this improved things quite a bit.

 

The intonation was hard as with the 12s I had to reverse the saddles for a little extra space and it's still all the way down for most strings and still not exactly there but acceptable.

 

Now the pots are a mystery, from 10-7 it's pretty smooth and then there is a drop that makes them practically useless. This is very important as I play a lot with that to get various tones. Kuz you mentioned something about 50s wiring, I looked it up and it seemes to be the case. This doesn't include changes in the parts, just in the wiring, correct? Also I guess I will have to have a tech do it, messing around with the guts of a 335 probably is not such an easy task, this is what I wanted to avoid..

 

uff, it's getting closer I think, thanks again for the advice guys..

[panosy]

oh another thing, the seth at the bridge is rather shrill and trebly but the neck is good indeed, if I take it to a tech I am thinking of replacing that with something else (a '59 or something else), would the work nicely as a neck pup for another guitar or is it different in terms of resistance and specs (I suspect the latter)?

[gpuma]

Hey Panosy: cool stuff with the cactus trio!

[kidsmoke]

Welcome aboard, I hope the suggestions help you dial it in....it is certainly a beautiful guitar. And +1 on the cactus trio sounds!

[panosy]

Hey you guys, thanks for the good words, it means a lot We are working on some new stuff now and hopefully we'll have the chance to properly record them in the not-so-distant future.. It would be nice if this could be done using my 535, we'll see about that!

[plexirocker 68]

I would check the output of the Seth bridge pup. It shouldn't be shrill. Maybe it's not a matched set? A '59 is definately brighter in every way. I raise them up and adjust the pole pieces to match the fretboard radius. I also slant the pup down on the treble side. Seths can change a lot with just a small turn of the screwdriver either in height or polepiece adjustment. I normally have the bridge seth up pretty high and raise the middle polepieces to match the radius and lower the High e and b string polepieces

 

Good Luck

plexi

[zovanou]

i play jazz on my 535, have thomastik 12s and seems fine. I was not real pleased with the seths

my 535 came with( my preference) swapped them out for bare knuckles stormy mondays

happy ever since

[Guest HRB853370]

You need to have the guitar changed to "50s wiring" and that will cure your volume/tone drop off at 7. The modern wiring will cause this. Many jazziers like the modern wiring because the highs are cut rather quickly with only a slight turn of the volume knob.

 

I also would not put 13s on that guitar (frankly 12s turned to standard pitch is probably really pushing it).

 

Raise the pickups or get pickups with more output. I love the Seth neck pup, but I like you don't care for the thinner shriller bridge pup.

 

Finally, it is not a hollow body and will never have the low end of a hollow body. But putting pickup that were slightly hotter and had more mids did it for me.

 

Installing a Mojotone wiring harness will accomplish that too. No need for ancient wiring.

[panosy]

small update after some days and heavy adjustments.. this thing is indeed very different and it sounds VERY good for its own right

 

I am starting to smile playing it... Also I will use it for an upcoming gig this Saturday and see how this goes.. more soon!

[H]

small update after some days and heavy adjustments.. this thing is indeed very different and it sounds VERY good for its own right

 

I am starting to smile playing it...

Glad it's working out for you

[panosy]

OK so I will need your advice on a more specific thing, pot value and wiring (mentioned above). I have read around and it seems that the standard wiring has the issue of sudden rolloff (tone mostly but volume as well) after 7. This has to change as I would like to use the full range of the thing.

 

I understand this is a matter of wiring (50s wiring was suggested) but also the pot/cap values? I find that when everything is at 10 I get overally more of a trebly sound (specially in the bridge but also the neck) than I would like so I think I will take it to a tech to do the rewiring and maybe change the caps for a darker tone. I am not very familiar with specifics but I understand that 500 is normal (or even 250) and the higher the value the darker it gets. Is that correct? If so, should I also consider 750 etc or it can be too much? And what about the cap quality/make, is there something specific that I should be after?

 

Last note, this is not a matter of pickup height as if I put them lower for less treble I also loose the attack and snap (logical) that I want.

 

What do you think? Has anybody messed with that with success? Are there downsides to that that i should expect?

 

Thanks again you guys..

[Wolfi]

Hi Panosy,

 

congrats to your 535. It's a beauty.

I agree with Kuz. I had nearly the same probs with my 555. I first changed my Schaller Golden 50's to Seth Lovers. The neck pickup was great, but I didn't like the bridge pickup. So I traded them and installed Seymour Duncan 59's with new wires, 50's wiring. I use 11s. Now the guitar sounds great. If you want a more jazzy sound, play with the tone knobs.

If I use the neck pickup and I want it to sound like a jazz box, I roll back the tone knob to 4. Now it sounds like a fat jazz mama. In the meantime the 555 became my main guitar, because it's so versatile.

[Wolfi]

I would check the output of the Seth bridge pup. It shouldn't be shrill. Maybe it's not a matched set? A '59 is definately brighter in every way.

Good Luck

plexi

 

My Seth bridge pickup was schrill to, but my 59s are pretty much more mid range and not as bright as the Seth bridge was.

[ledzef]

You could try to change your cap values to a .047 instead of the standard .022. They say it's darker but I put those .047 Mojotone Vitamin T pio in a strat I have and like it.

[TalismanRich]

Changing out the wiring harness will have a big effect, especially if you go with a Mojotone setup. Most of their harnesses incorporate a treble bleed circuit that helps balance the tone roll off with change in volume. 50's wiring is supposed to make a similar change, but it isn't the same. I tried that first but wasn't satisfied, ended up with a treble bleed on my 157 and 535. Its in an old thread here on the board.

 

There is an Excel worksheet available, I think it was called GuitarFreak, that will show you the effective response as you change the values of the various pots, capacitors and pickups. You need to know the values for the pickup (inductance and impedence). I found it on GuitarNutz.

http://guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=reference&action=display&thread=3627

 

The problem with mods like this on a 535 is that you have to remove the harness, which is a royal pain, compared to working on a 150 or 157 where you just remove the control cover and CAREFULLY solder in parts.

[TalismanRich]

BTW. this is what you see in GuitarFreak. You can swap values around and watch the curves change.

[smurph1]

oh another thing, the seth at the bridge is rather shrill and trebly but the neck is good indeed, if I take it to a tech I am thinking of replacing that with something else (a '59 or something else), would the work nicely as a neck pup for another guitar or is it different in terms of resistance and specs (I suspect the latter)?

Dont forget you can adjust the tone control to tame that treble a bit..Just a thought..

[panosy]

OK very long story short, after a couple of visits to a tech, time wasted and some bad mood because of the whole thing I ended up using 2 linear pots for the volume controls and logarithmic pots for the tone ones. This seems to have done the trick, it is not adjustable to taste as it should be and with the help of some setup it sounds very very nice..

 

take care everybody and thank you for all the help..

[kidsmoke]

hopefully this will all be a humorous memory soon. Hope it serves you well after the effort you've put in. So, you stayed with the Seth Lovers, correct?

[panosy]

above i meant "now" it is adjustable etc.. really nice guitar, i wonder why they put these electronics and wiring in them, very strange, i suppose loads of people had the same issues..