koula901 Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 Hi Folks, What are all the reasons that a string might not sustain as well as the others, at certain frets? The case in point is playing a line that requires long sustain on notes above the 12th fret, using a high pedal, at it's highest gain setting. The worst note is the G string at the 13th fret - just doesn't sustain as long as the other strings. The G string generally has short sustain also on the 15-18th frets. The B string has shorter sustain on frets 15-21. Maybe I'm asking too much of the guitar, but I do notice that my 150 can pull it off well - sustain for days. Am I asking too much of a 137? It's got juiced up Fralin P90s on it. Or, maybe there's some tweak or improvement I can make that would help the sustain. What are your thoughts?
SouthpawGuy Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 Just a thought ... your 137 has hotter wind Fralins hasn't it ? Maybe they're a little too close to the strings and the pole pieces are pulling the smaller strings, reducing sustain. As I say just a thought.
koula901 Posted October 9, 2012 Author Posted October 9, 2012 strings aren't terribly close, but I may be able to raise them a tad. I was wondering if maybe I should raise the screws on the pickups, but that would just make the louder, right?
SouthpawGuy Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 Depends on the design of the pickups, on the Fralin P-90 the pole pieces will increase the volume if brought closer to the strings ... up to a point. My 137 has the same pickups, but with the stock wind, and I have them set close to the strings, especially the bridge pickup. I'm guessing that the hotter wind version will pull the strings more, i.e. possibly reduce sustain, if set too close to the strings. I have Manlius noisefree P-90s in another guitar, and with those pickups adjusting the pole pieces has no affect on the output volume as they're only there for show. They can be set at any level relative to the top of the pickup and it makes zero difference to the pickups output, which has it's good and bad points, fine tuning the strings output volume with the pole pieces is not possible but on the other hand there is reduced string pull.
koula901 Posted October 9, 2012 Author Posted October 9, 2012 I was wondering if there was something up with the nut, bridge, or neck . . . there certainly isn't much fret wear.
SouthpawGuy Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 Another thought, this time of year, September / October is truss rod adjusting season. Maybe it needs a tweak or setup ?
DetroitBlues Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 I've found loss of sustain has come from frets and pickups not registering the string vibration (when the string is being bent, its on top of a different pole piece that could be lower). I've also heard old/bad strings being a culprit... A lot less mass on the G, B, and high E string too....
Hfan Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 You're in the Nort East like me. Been getting a lot of rain? I had to give a little relief to a few of my guitars recently due I assume to the rainy weather. Bad or old strings maybe. And it sounds like Southpaw was saying the pickups where too high possibly. Your response sounded like you where going to make them higher. Maybe I'm wrong. Could you have a high fret somewhere but that wouldn't happen overnight? If this just developed, I'd look at what has recently changed ie the weather. You can sight down the neck to check relief or use a capo on the 1st fret, hold down the last and check to see if you have a gap tween the string and fret towards the middle. If no gap you may need relief. Wouldn't hurt to give it a 1/8 or 1/4 turn ccw. You can always reverse the adjustment. Sorry for the vague instructions..
koula901 Posted October 9, 2012 Author Posted October 9, 2012 True, the weather's colder and has been drier, yesterday and today, though damper. Problem w/G string has been there all along. All the guitars are sharp - all the strings need changing, and I may possible need to adjust all the necks due to weather change now that it's colder and drier. I'll wait till I change all the strings first, prior to adjusting the necks. Funny thing, though, nothing at all has changed on the Tele - that things built like a brick sh*t house.
AP515 Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 I've seen this before, it makes very good sense that the 150 doesn't have it but the 137 does. It's not the pickups, or the frets, or the nut. And I am sorry to have to tell you that there isn't much you can do about it. You can minimize it but those frets will always have shorter sustain than the others. The reason is what we call "dead spots". Most thin or regular nicks have them. Only the beefy "fat" necks don't seem to have the problem. It is often the G string and sometimes the B. The best thing to do is learn a riff pattern that takes you to the b string 4 frets down the neck to get where you won't hear it.
davesultra Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 I've seen this before, it makes very good sense that the 150 doesn't have it but the 137 does. It's not the pickups, or the frets, or the nut. And I am sorry to have to tell you that there isn't much you can do about it. You can minimize it but those frets will always have shorter sustain than the others. The reason is what we call "dead spots". Most thin or regular nicks have them. Only the beefy "fat" necks don't seem to have the problem. It is often the G string and sometimes the B. The best thing to do is learn a riff pattern that takes you to the b string 4 frets down the neck to get where you won't hear it. +1 on this one. I had 2 different USA Hamer guitars that had the same issue. a '91 Sunburst and a '07 Studio. Really liked that Sunburst too. Just could not deal with the dead spot. BTW: both were on the "G" string at the 12th fret. However, my '08 H-137 only has one spot where it doesn't ring as well. That is on the "A" string at the 21st fret. Fortunately, I don't go there a whole heck of a lot.
Kuz Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 A very common dead spot is G string 13th fret. Not really a lot you can do about it. I had the same issue on a bolt on neck guitar and ultimately had the neck replace and the problem went away. But again this is not uncommon.
yoslate Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 Another thought, this time of year, September / October is truss rod adjusting season. Maybe it needs a tweak or setup ? You're in the Nort East like me. Been getting a lot of rain? I had to give a little relief to a few of my guitars recently due I assume to the rainy weather. Bad or old strings maybe. Maybe I'm wrong. Could you have a high fret somewhere but that wouldn't happen overnight? If this just developed, I'd look at what has recently changed ie the weather. You can sight down the neck to check relief or use a capo on the 1st fret, hold down the last and check to see if you have a gap tween the string and fret towards the middle. If no gap you may need relief. Wouldn't hurt to give it a 1/8 or 1/4 turn ccw. You can always reverse the adjustment. I think Paul and Pete most likely identified the culprit, and Detroit makes a good observation, as well. Strings are using a lot of energy, fast, to vibrate at those frequencies, higher up the neck. Not going to sustain, like an open string, for example. What happens when you play an acoustic guitar above the twelfth fret, as opposed to open? Likely the weather has caused something to swell, just a bit, where the neck joins the body (I'm assuming it's a single cutaway, with more fretboard over the body). Might be able to see a hump in the board at the joint (Fifteenth or sixteenth fret on a single-cut 137, isn't ti?), if you sight carefully down either side of the neck. As Pete suggested, a touch of relief will help that. Or a high fret, either just a high one, or one working itself up a hair, as the wood moves is possible. Again, sighting down the board, from the headstock might reveal one. Sometimes a tap with a plastic hammer will seat an unruly fret.
Hfan Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 I'm not understanding this. Never heard of this before. Anyone now why their are dead spots at these locations? Some kind of physics at work? We have a few resident guitar techs around maybe they can explain. I would have guessed if a guitar had a weak tone at a specific fret on a specific string it would be a high spot on a fret or something of that nature.
Hfan Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 I was hoping Rob would weigh in..just before I hit the reply button..
Kuz Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 I have researched this since it happened to me. dead spots are the result on the neck vibrating at the same or similar frequency as the note played. Put a capo on the 1st fret and see if the dead spot moves up a fret, and it will. Terry McInturff says if you clamp or have someone hold the headstock the problem will decrease or go away. If you look at some touring guitarist that us gain, they will have strips of lead tape on the headstock to change the frequency of the neck. This is extremely common on classical guitars. I suggest googling "guitar dead spots". The strings, action, ect won't fix the problem if it is a true dead spot. Try the capo trick or secure the headstock and see if it still happens.
Kuz Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 Again, I don't know if you have a dead spot or not, but here is some info with Terry's input on TGP.... http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=513421&highlight=Dead+spots http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=1132073&highlight=Dead+spots
Hfan Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 Argghh...one more thing to obsess about. I will not check my guitars for dead spots, I will not check my guitars for dead spots, I will not check......
yoslate Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 Again, I don't know if you have a dead spot or not, but here is some info with Terry's input on TGP.... http://www.thegearpa...ight=Dead+spots http://www.thegearpa...ight=Dead+spots The day's wasted, you don't learn something. Good stuff. Thanks, John.
Spectrum13 Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 Would you also change the frequency by going to lighter or heaver tuners, or tuner buttons?
yoslate Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 Terry M. addressed that in one of his replies on The Gear Page, Dan. He said not enough to make a difference. Too little mass.
Kuz Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 Would you also change the frequency by going to lighter or heaver tuners, or tuner buttons? I'll be honest, that I have not chaned tuners on guitars that don't have dead spots because I am afraid of changing the mass/neck frequency and causing a neck to develop dead spots. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
big bob Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 You guys should stop all this dirty talking... Nuts and g-strings, pickups,... Where do you live.. The gutter
koula901 Posted October 10, 2012 Author Posted October 10, 2012 Again, I don't know if you have a dead spot or not, but here is some info with Terry's input on TGP.... http://www.thegearpa...ight=Dead+spots http://www.thegearpa...ight=Dead+spots These are excellent references, Kuz. Thank you. I think I understand now. Thanks to everyone else here, who tried to tease out the problem.
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