schundog Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 I saw this article in the Holiday 2012 issue of Guitar Player Magazine. I'm not saying it's gospel, but it seems to make sense to me. I looked for a link online, but couldn't find it. I hope you can read this, or magnify it. Oh, and the argument of ease/difficulty repair seems to have two sides, too, according to the article. Some techs say PTP is HARDER to work on than PCB. Me, I'm going to focus on easier things, like fixing the economy and Foreign Policy.... http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz327/schundog/PTPFABLE_zpsb4fd3d83.jpg[/img]"]http://
DetroitBlues Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 Ok, I understand what they are saying... Here's my concern with wiring... If it can't be built by hand via true point to point, turret board, or printed circuit board, it's very slim odds of it being repairable or modifiable... That's why I really don't like modulation amps or amps that are packed full of features and digital effects...if KBP can't build it, fix it, or hot rod it, I don't want it!
Steiner Posted October 24, 2012 Posted October 24, 2012 I have a PCB amp with traces that go from the top of the board to the bottom and vice-verses. If it breaks, it will go back to the creators. Nobody else could possibly fix it. MSRP ~ $4100. I agree with Blues, If I were to acquire a common circuit amp (Fender, Marshall) It will be a KBP810!
schundog Posted October 25, 2012 Author Posted October 25, 2012 Ok, I understand what they are saying... Here's my concern with wiring... If it can't be built by hand via true point to point, turret board, or printed circuit board, it's very slim odds of it being repairable or modifiable... That's why I really don't like modulation amps or amps that are packed full of features and digital effects...if KBP can't build it, fix it, or hot rod it, I don't want it! As you know, I'm a huge fan of KBP810 amps, and Brian as a person, as well! No disrespect meant. I DO find it difficult to believe you can hear the difference in tone between PCB and PTP, however. Also, I have NEVER had any repair issues with any PCB amp; if I did, either I would probably change my tune and agree with you, or throw the darn thing away and start over, as the PCB amps I buy aren't exactly boutique pieces, and can be had for cheap. I hate to say it, but a lot of the stuff out there is designed to be throw-away.
DetroitBlues Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 As you know, I'm a huge fan of KBP810 amps, and Brian as a person, as well! No disrespect meant. I DO find it difficult to believe you can hear the difference in tone between PCB and PTP, however. Also, I have NEVER had any repair issues with any PCB amp; if I did, either I would probably change my tune and agree with you, or throw the darn thing away and start over, as the PCB amps I buy aren't exactly boutique pieces, and can be had for cheap. I hate to say it, but a lot of the stuff out there is designed to be throw-away. Ask KBP about my first Valveking or the recent SuperchampXD.... Neither is repairable.... Tone will always be debatable. One thing I noticed is PCB board amps I've used have better usable tones at low volumes. Handwired Tube amps need to be turned up to even get a sound out of them, while PCB have a steady, level volume change with no jumps in volume....
JeffB Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 I have amps that are ptp and pcb. They sound good or I wouldnt have bought them. None of them have broken down. I use two amp repair guys and either one of them, should the occasion arise, could fix any of them. I never stop to think that they are ptp or pcb until I read the internet. Some amps are too complicated for ptp. For me its a discussion that never goes anywhere and wont make me a better musician. Also ponder sometimes why any of it is important when some one puts a pedal board in front of it anyway. Then theres the rooms that have all kinds of weird reflections going on and any amp is hard to dial in let alone worry about halo's of purity. Also the back of a semi trailer out doors where your sound disappears as soon as you hit the guitar. Then theres cymbals and snares competing with your space and dodgy power and a sound guy who is going to do what ever he has to to make your sound fit in with whats going on and really who cares, youre going to get paid whether you sound good or bad, you could use a POD XT live and still get paid the same and get asked back. If your playing depends on how good you perceive your sound to be youve kinda of backed yourself into a corner anyway. An approximation of your approximation of how you should sound is good enough to get you through. When you do find yourself in a position where it is sounding as good as you imagine it should, chances are it was going to sound good with whatever you used. I feel better. You couldve used a Bugera. Ruined the mood. Ask KBP about my first Valveking or the recent SuperchampXD.... Neither is repairable.... Tone will always be debatable. One thing I noticed is PCB board amps I've used have better usable tones at low volumes. Handwired Tube amps need to be turned up to even get a sound out of them, while PCB have a steady, level volume change with no jumps in volume.... Well thats a generalisation. It depends on how many gain stages befor out put volume or master volume of any amp. An amp with volume and tone controls and nothing else reagardless of ptp or pcb will react pretty much the same. Throw in some extra gain stages in either and a master volume and again they will react pretty much the same.
DetroitBlues Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 I've used a Bugera V22, Jet City JCA2112RC, Peavey Valveking 112, Fender Blues Junior, Peavey Delta Blues, Fender Champ 600, and a Fender Superchamp XD. Only one I hated was the Champ 600, it was too flubby for me. All of them sounded good at low volume and even better at high volume. Now a Laney 30 watt combo, Traynor YCV40, Marshall 18w clone, 5e3, 5E1, 5F1, Deluxe Reverb, Dumble ODS Clone, Trainwreck Clone, and Vox AC15 did not sound good at low volumes, but sounded great at mid to high volume. Most of those had a volume jump from barely audible to too loud in a fraction of a turn of the knob...
schundog Posted October 25, 2012 Author Posted October 25, 2012 I could be wrong (did I really just say that?! haha), but I think the big jump in volume is due to the pots used. I think there is a pot that brings the volume up more evenly (audio taper pot?) DB, go ask KBP to chime in on this!
Genericmusic Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 I'm enjoying this conversion. I think JeffB states it best if I may paraphrase; "Play the friggin thing. If it sound like crap don't buy/use it. " Find something that gives you the tone you are looking for.....your tone!
Guest HRB853370 Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Ask KBP about my first Valveking or the recent SuperchampXD.... Neither is repairable.... Tone will always be debatable. One thing I noticed is PCB board amps I've used have better usable tones at low volumes. Handwired Tube amps need to be turned up to even get a sound out of them, while PCB have a steady, level volume change with no jumps in volume.... I've used a Bugera V22, Jet City JCA2112RC, Peavey Valveking 112, Fender Blues Junior, Peavey Delta Blues, Fender Champ 600, and a Fender Superchamp XD. Only one I hated was the Champ 600, it was too flubby for me. All of them sounded good at low volume and even better at high volume. Now a Laney 30 watt combo, Traynor YCV40, Marshall 18w clone, 5e3, 5E1, 5F1, Deluxe Reverb, Dumble ODS Clone, Trainwreck Clone, and Vox AC15 did not sound good at low volumes, but sounded great at mid to high volume. Most of those had a volume jump from barely audible to too loud in a fraction of a turn of the knob... I could be wrong (did I really just say that?! haha), but I think the big jump in volume is due to the pots used. I think there is a pot that brings the volume up more evenly (audio taper pot?) DB, go ask KBP to chime in on this! When I was jammin with Rusty and Rich the other night, I was plugged into my KBP and they were plugged into a Crate PA head. Well, I had my volume on 1 and it competed with them. When I notched to 2, it was balls to the walls. So I know exactly what you are talking about. My preference would be to have a more progressive volume change, but not sure how that could be accomplished.
kidsmoke Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 Slammer...what circuit is your KBP?? Sorry I've lost track...
DetroitBlues Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 I could be wrong (did I really just say that?! haha), but I think the big jump in volume is due to the pots used. I think there is a pot that brings the volume up more evenly (audio taper pot?) DB, go ask KBP to chime in on this! As my wife reminds me, I'm seldom right...
DetroitBlues Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 I'm enjoying this conversion. I think JeffB states it best if I may paraphrase; "Play the friggin thing. If it sound like crap don't buy/use it. " Find something that gives you the tone you are looking for.....your tone! I like that idea, but reliability has become a prominent feature...
kidsmoke Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 I'm enjoying this conversion. I think JeffB states it best if I may paraphrase; "Play the friggin thing. If it sound like crap don't buy/use it. " Find something that gives you the tone you are looking for.....your tone! I agree with the "if it sounds good, play it" paradigm. Bang for the buck is issue for many of us as well. To be able to have a giggable amp for a couple hundred bucks...as opposed to NOT having one...isn't irrelevant. BTW...my Bugera....which Jeff would not recommend under any circumstances....was never fixed. Took it to two different techs. Finally figured out what's wrong at least, on my own...quite by accident.... It's the reverb circuit which is giving the popping. Leaving it off eliminates the issue, and since I use a great little verb pedal (which is how I discovered this)
koula901 Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 I had my volume on 1 and it competed with them. When I notched to 2, it was balls to the walls. My preference would be to have a more progressive volume change, but not sure how that could be accomplished. Isn't that how typical fender-style amps go?
pressure Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 I don't know about all Fender amps but the Deluxe goes to 3 clean and then at 4 jumps to saturation. 1 & 2 on the volume scale don't do much.
Kuz Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 If it sounds GREAT..... then honestly I could careless!!!!! My Bogner Shiva is PCB and sounds awesome. I know A LOT of gigging guitarist that use this amp..... never had a problem. If it sounds Great... I could careless.
H Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 I don't know about all Fender amps but the Deluxe goes to 3 clean and then at 4 jumps to saturation. 1 & 2 on the volume scale don't do much. Pop a 5751 in v1 and your clean headroom will jump nearer to 6
DetroitBlues Posted October 25, 2012 Posted October 25, 2012 I agree with the "if it sounds good, play it" paradigm. Bang for the buck is issue for many of us as well. To be able to have a giggable amp for a couple hundred bucks...as opposed to NOT having one...isn't irrelevant. BTW...my Bugera....which Jeff would not recommend under any circumstances....was never fixed. Took it to two different techs. Finally figured out what's wrong at least, on my own...quite by accident.... It's the reverb circuit which is giving the popping. Leaving it off eliminates the issue, and since I use a great little verb pedal (which is how I discovered this) Mine would cut out the reverb after 45 minutes.... I couldn't fix it, so I returned it and ordered a JetCity JCA2112RC.
TalismanRich Posted October 26, 2012 Posted October 26, 2012 When I was jammin with Rusty and Rich the other night, I was plugged into my KBP and they were plugged into a Crate PA head. Well, I had my volume on 1 and it competed with them. When I notched to 2, it was balls to the walls. So I know exactly what you are talking about. My preference would be to have a more progressive volume change, but not sure how that could be accomplished. I think a change in the volume pot, in both taper and value, would probably give it a more progressive range. I tried an Allen Accomplice which is 22 watts with 6V6s, and it had a good range of volume. Once you had it up to 4 or 5, it starts getting the dirt. At the time, I was looking for the "Fender clean" which is why I opted for the Patriot. You could try a lower gain preamp tube in V1. A 5751 has about 70 gain, vs 100 gain for a 12AX7. Check with KBP and see what he thinks, since he built the amp.
Gitfiddler Posted October 26, 2012 Posted October 26, 2012 Not familiar with 5751's. Are they like 12AY7's? My amp dude recommended 12AY7 for my overly aggressive Silverface DR.
H Posted October 26, 2012 Posted October 26, 2012 Not familiar with 5751's. Are they like 12AY7's? My amp dude recommended 12AY7 for my overly aggressive Silverface DR. The 5751 has a gain factor of 70 compared with the 12AY7's 45. I use the 5751 in my 5e3 for a bit more clean headroom. When I used a 12AY7, I lost some volume as well. Enjoy experimenting
pressure Posted October 26, 2012 Posted October 26, 2012 Thanks for the tip "H" about putting a 5751 in v1 but I like the grind from the Deluxe which is p to p construction. I get great cleans from the Metro which is pcb construction. Both amps sound great by themselves but together they are fab.
212Mavguy Posted October 26, 2012 Posted October 26, 2012 Both amps sound great by themselves but together they are fab. Nice to have that play well with one another! How fun to get that huge, huge, sound in the room. What are you gonna use for the third, center channel amp? hehehe
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