Guest HRB853370 Posted November 22, 2012 Posted November 22, 2012 This long tenon stuff has been discussed more here over the years than any other topic next to the headstock. I will quote Terry McInturff (master Luthier) once again.... "The length of the tenon doesn't matter as long as the contact point of the neck and body is a complete joint that is strong as possible to maximize vibrations from the neck to the body". In other words, the length of the tenon doesn't matter as long as the contact joint is complete and secure as possible. All my Heritage guitars are the "shorter" Heritage tenon (note I did not say the short Gibson tenon like on Gibson production models, their is a difference the Heritage "shorter" tenon is the "transition length tenon" which is longer than the Gibby production model tenon.. for whatever that matters) and they slay any long tenon guitar I have ever played. I am sure I could not tell the difference between my "shorter" Heritage tenon to the new "long" Heritage in a tone challenge. AND for what it is worth, what guitar company uses the longest tenons..... PRS!!!! Ha, I was waiting for this! I knew this thread wouldn't end without a quote from Mr. McInturff !
Kuz Posted November 22, 2012 Posted November 22, 2012 Ha, I was waiting for this! I knew this thread wouldn't end without a quote from Mr. McInturff ! Would you rather that I quote you?
yoslate Posted November 22, 2012 Posted November 22, 2012 Ha, I was waiting for this! I knew this thread wouldn't end without a quote from Mr. McInturff ! Not to fan the flames...or flame any fans, but, Will...play one of Terry's guitars sometime. Then, you'll get it....
Guest HRB853370 Posted November 22, 2012 Posted November 22, 2012 Would you rather that I quote you? Now that would be dangerous! (Unless we're talking about Fraud). Not to fan the flames...or flame any fans, but, Will...play one of Terry's guitars sometime. Then, you'll get it.... I was only bustin his chops Rob! He knew that too! I am not going to play anything I could never afford!
tbonesullivan Posted November 22, 2012 Posted November 22, 2012 I never understood the whole single cut tenon obsession. There is so much room above the pickup that it doesn't really matter whether the tenon makes it to the pickup cavity on a Les Paul Style guitar. On an SG style guitar, well then it's a LOT more important, and the neck joint is much much shorter, especially on the ones with the early 60's style neck joint. There is a lot less room to fit everything in. If you'll notice, on just about all SG's, the neck pickup is at least 1/2 inch away from the end of the fretboard, to leave more room for the neck joint. there also is a little cover used on the end to cover up the neck joint on the batwing pickguard models. Anyway, the overall length and design of the neck joint will always be more important than whether or not the tenon goes all the way into the neck pickup cavity.
Kuz Posted November 23, 2012 Posted November 23, 2012 I was only bustin his chops Rob! He knew that too! I am not going to play anything I could never afford! Yes, I knew that Will was joking.... does that make 4 or 5 points we have agreed on this month???
Guest HRB853370 Posted November 23, 2012 Posted November 23, 2012 Yes, I knew that Will was joking.... does that make 4 or 5 points we have agreed on this month??? Lets keep it going!
kidsmoke Posted November 23, 2012 Posted November 23, 2012 Ok, I'm not one to needlessly stir the pot. I sincerely wish to increase my understanding on the physics and construction of these contraptions that we all spend so much time and resources on. The discussion as it relates to solid bodies makes perfect sense to me. My Larrivée supposedly has an "extra long tenon". Ok fine. but when we start talking semi's, particularly the 535/555, I don't get it? Where is the wood? The pickup cavity is right/there at the end of the neck, and there is no beefy heel like you find on a LP. Wouldn't you know it, my photos suck, but here is a shot of a 535 being put together this August. Are you telling me that's a long tenon he's holding? (somebody else has to have better shot than this....there were a bunch of shutter bugs there at this point)
HANGAR18 Posted November 23, 2012 Posted November 23, 2012 Wouldn't you know it, my photos suck, but here is a shot of a 535 being put together this August. Are you telling me that's a long tenon he's holding? (somebody else has to have better shot than this....there were a bunch of shutter bugs there at this point) As I understand it, that is a long tenon. I was lurking there around that time frame. I'll see what my photo collection looks like.
HANGAR18 Posted November 23, 2012 Posted November 23, 2012 The attached photo is the best example I could find. Starting from left to right, the first neck is what I would call a short tenon. The fourth neck has what I would call a long tenon. Neck number three is a 5-Piece neck which also looks like it has a long tenon. Even if it doesn't really matter, I'd still prefer the tenon be long.
kidsmoke Posted November 23, 2012 Posted November 23, 2012 I have that identical photo. my impression was that those were hollowbody necks, with the larger headstocks etc, but I don't know that, and I don't know that that distinction matters re: the long tenon issue.
bolero Posted November 23, 2012 Posted November 23, 2012 from what I understand, a long tenon extends past the fretboard & well into the pickup cavity those all end at the edge of the fretboard however the point about the pickup cavity being a big empty space anyway, it a good one...it sorta negates the whole issue. although the bottom of the tenon does extend along the bottom
602a Posted November 24, 2012 Posted November 24, 2012 Trying to convince some of these guys a long tenon really changes the sound of a guitar is alot like this. :BangHead: Everyone has their own opinion on this subject just like pickups, fret size, fretboard material, strings etc. JMO I prefer a long tenon due to more wood on wood contact.
Kuz Posted November 24, 2012 Posted November 24, 2012 Trying to convince some of these guys a long tenon really changes the sound of a guitar is alot like this. :BangHead: Everyone has their own opinion on this subject just like pickups, fret size, fretboard material, strings etc. JMO I prefer a long tenon due to more wood on wood contact. Here is Terry McInturff's direct quote on if a long tenon is necessary..... Terry: "IMO...my 2 cent's? It is the surface area of the mortise/tenon glue joint prior to the neck pickup route that is most important, most audible.... and notably so." "Tonally however it is always going to be that portion of the neck joint that preceeds the neck pickup rout that does most of the "heavy lifting" tonally." "The main aim is to have uber tight joinery at this critical place. Secondly, IMO the next most important factor is the size of the gluejoint "footprint" prior to the neck pickup rout." I don't think it gets any clearer than that. Terry is one of the most experienced and respected luthiers alive today!!!
602a Posted November 24, 2012 Posted November 24, 2012 Just my opinion Kuz we all wear different style shoes too. Not everyone has to think the same, good thing about opinion's
Kuz Posted November 24, 2012 Posted November 24, 2012 Just my opinion Kuz we all wear different style shoes too. Not everyone has to think the same, good thing about opinion's No, no problem at all. I appreciate your opinion, I was just posting Terry's because I quoted it earlier. Did I do something wrong, sorry if you took it the wrong way. That was not my intention.
602a Posted November 24, 2012 Posted November 24, 2012 Heavens no, I like your post they are always informative. That's how we learn. I never knew that until you posted Terry's quote. Good stuff. I was just saying everyone has all sorts of opinions about guitars and how they are made and played. Take Billy Gibbon's for example, he uses 7-42 on his main guitars. Man to me that's insane. But my opinion is 9-42 Burnished Nickel's is the right string for me. That's how I lean is from people like you with great information that you and others here share.
602a Posted November 24, 2012 Posted November 24, 2012 You always give great info, you are one of the old timers here(not saying you are old) that have help me more than you know. I now am waiting on my first Heritage 535. A 25th Anniversary. You and those dang photo's of your's.
Kuz Posted November 24, 2012 Posted November 24, 2012 Thanks again for the kind words and you are going to LOVE your 25th Anniv 535!!!
602a Posted November 24, 2012 Posted November 24, 2012 KInda feel me some BB King comin on. Thank's Kuz
HANGAR18 Posted November 24, 2012 Posted November 24, 2012 Part of the reason I like the idea of long tenons is for strength. My brain doesn't know how strong glue is. The glue is probably more than strong enough so my concern for strength is probably unwarranted. My guitars are not chambered (they're heavy) and they hang all year long similar to how guitars hang on a wall at the store. I also grab them just above the neck joint as close to the body as my hand can get in order to minimize the stress on that joint when I'm handling the instrument.
Guest HRB853370 Posted November 24, 2012 Posted November 24, 2012 Here is Terry McInturff's direct quote on if a long tenon is necessary..... Terry: "IMO...my 2 cent's? It is the surface area of the mortise/tenon glue joint prior to the neck pickup route that is most important, most audible.... and notably so." "Tonally however it is always going to be that portion of the neck joint that preceeds the neck pickup rout that does most of the "heavy lifting" tonally." "The main aim is to have uber tight joinery at this critical place. Secondly, IMO the next most important factor is the size of the gluejoint "footprint" prior to the neck pickup rout." I don't think it gets any clearer than that. Terry is one of the most experienced and respected luthiers alive today!!! Lordy Lordy, here we go AGAIN!
Gitfiddler Posted November 24, 2012 Posted November 24, 2012 As a player who cut his teeth playing a bolt-on Harmony Stratatone from age 13 to late 20's, I can't relate to all of this tenon talk. There was NO tenon on that LP shaped guitar, but it sure sounded good.
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