question about firebird pickups

[bolero]

.....do mini hums, or P90's fit in a firebird pickup route?

[H]

The Firebird I owned had minibuckers in wide, flat mounts. The routes are not exactly the same - my ElectraBird is routed for minibuckers with the same mounts as a Firebird but P90s won't go in the same holes.

 

[Number8]

Wow. That's pretty slick. I have no idea why but the words "murder weapon" came to mind when I saw the pic.

[bolero]

ha, yeah I agree...H that is a sexy beast indeed

 

 

thx for the info!!

[kidsmoke]

My understanding is that, historically, the firebird originally came with mini's, which are smaller than a standard P90. But the bird is an axe that has been appointed with everything at one time or another.

 

So if the firebird originally came with mini hums, I'd think that a "firebird route" would have to be for mini hums.

 

purely a hypothesis on my part.

[kidsmoke]

Matthew Larrivée wrote the following as part of a history of the mini.

 

 

Original Firebird Mini

The early 1960’s were not kind to Gibson – They were quickly losing market share to Fender guitars who’s instruments were seen as modern and more affordable. In an attempt to regain footing in the market, Gibson introduced the radical “Firebird” model in 1963. This line of guitars featured a totally different mini Humbucker that was substantially more “Fender-ish”.

During the 1950’s and 1960’s there were two primary different schools of thought on pickup construction. On one hand you had Fender who had the magnet directly in the middle of the coil of wire, and on the other hand you had Gibson who used a steel pole in the middle of the coil of wire with the magnet mounted beneath. The ultimate difference being that on a fender the strings were mounted right above the actual magnet, while in the Gibson there was magnetized steel directly under the strings. Each method produced completely different results; the Fender pickup was bright and twangy with bite (Think Telecaster) while the Gibson style was fatter with smoother.

The Firebird mini still used the exact same bobbins – except that the steel cores that were normally found in the bobbins were replaced by magnets! By removing the steel poles from the pickup and replacing them directly with magnets the sound of the pickup dramatically changed. The magnets were now directly in the core of the coil very similar to the fender pickups – This gave the Firebird Mini a more “Fender-y” sound – A brighter, snappy Humbucker with twang to it. Because of this, it is a popular option on many Tele style guitars as it can have some twang, but still buck the hum.

Since the pole screws on the cover were gone, the nickel silver cover was flat and clean without any holes. The earliest versions of the pickup (1963) had plain enamel wire, but pretty much immediately switched to Poly wire.

[JackBaruth]

With all respect to Mr. Larrivee, that's an awfully, ah, rose-tinted way to look at it.

 

What I've read --- of course, I wasn't there, and we'd have to call Ren to find out the real story, probably --- was that Epiphone developed the mini-humbucker in an effort to duck around the Gibson patent. They then turned out a ton of them, more than they could sell since business wasn't great. When Gibson acquired Epiphone, they had thousands of sets of mini-hums in stock. Since the mini-hums fit in a P-90 route they wound up being used all over the place,

 

This makes more sense to me than the fairy tale you read about LP Deluxes having mini-hums because "Gibson only had P-90 routed Les Paul templates."

 

We've also heard a story here on the HOC about the proverbial load of PAFs being taken to the dump. This contrasts both with what we know about the history of the PAF giving way to the patent number and then the T-top and with the demonstrated history of Gibson time and again not wasting materials or parts.

[kidsmoke]

yep. that's why I cite sources. I'm assuming given his profile and name, that he checked his facts before publishing. But I don't know.

 

Here's the entire article, that was taken somewhat out of context....

 

 

Mini Humbuckers have been around in one form or another since about 1959-1960. The first versions appeared on Gibson-made Epiphones in 1960. Over the next 12 years at least five distinct variations of the pickup were created; The Original PAF Mini, Offset Pole Mini, Original Firebird Mini, Johnny Smith Floating, and a “sidewinder” mini designed by Bill Lawrence around 1972. All of these pickups were built around the same pickup cover, but inside were completely different designs – and ultimately produced very different tones.

 

The Original PAF Mini

 

The Original PAF Mini was designed by Seth Lover in approximately late 1959. The pickup was to be used on the “lower-end” versions of Gibson being marketing under the Epiphone Brand (acquired by the parent company of Gibson in 1957). The pickup was a smaller more compact version of the Seth’s original Humbucker design (The PAF everyone knows and loves). It featured two bobbins mounted side-by-side; each bobbin containing a low carbon steel pole and a single magnet at the bottom of the pickup. The bobbin on the south side of the magnet used 3/4" long #5-40 headless slot head screws made from free machining steel, while the bobbin connected to the north side of the magnet contained a steel blade made from 1018 low carbon steel – The base plate was constructed from 0.032” thick 18% half hard nickel silver and the cover was 0.025” thick nickel silver usually plated in nickel. The bar magnet used was Alnico 5, similar to what was in its full size PAF counterpart.

The wire used was 42 gauge plain enamel – likely the exact same as used on full size PAF’s. This wire was notoriously non-uniform with large diameter differences from spool to spool. The two bobbins are smaller and could not hold quite as much wire as their full-size counterparts. A standard Humbucker bobbin from the era could have anywhere from 4000-6000 turns of wire, while bobbins on the mini would only hold between 4000-4500 turns of wire. Fewer turns of wire mean that the pickup had a slightly lower DC resistance than its full size counterpart – Minis would commonly range from 6.4-7.3 kOhm while full size PAF’s from the era would average from 6.9-8.0 kOhm. No direct record was kept, but from evidence within the pickup itself, it appears to have been wound using an old gear driven Geo Stevens 38AM coil winder – probably the same coil winder that was used on P-90’s if the era.

Tone wise they were “similar” to a PAF in tone, similar output level, with a hint more high end.

 

Offset Pole Mini

 

Around 1962, Seth Lover made some changes to the Epiphone mini Humbucker. He changed the design to offset the screws in the pickup. Each coil of the pickup would now have three screws and a blade. The reason for the change in unknown, but Seth did feel that the 3 x 3 design had some improvements over his original Humbucker design. He felt that “It wasn’t quite as loud as the Gibson version, with fewer turns of the coil, and it was a bit trebly. But it did the job.”

The blades were wrapped in 1 turn of Scotch #4 black paper tape to reduce vibration of the slug against the cover, and to hold the slug in the bobbin. Other changes to the pickups followed (which were not intentional design changes, but rather pragmatic business decisions from production / management). The magnets were now being supplied by a new vendor and were polished as opposed to rough cast – making them more uniform. Like the full size Humbucker counterpart, in 1963 the wire was changed from plain enamel coated to poly wire. The plain enamel wire had a purplish hue to it, while the poly coated was clear or slightly red. In addition, in 1963 the “Patent Applied For” sticker was replaced with a sticker that acknowledged the granting of the patent. The sticker now read “Patent No 2,737,842” – Which strangely enough is NOT the patent number that was issued to Gibson for the Humbucker! It is actually a patent number for a wrap around bridge. It is suspected this was done to make it harder for copy cats to lookup the design details of the pickup which are listed in the actual patent – Sneaky! For reference the actual patent number is 2896491.

 

Original Firebird Mini

 

The early 1960’s were not kind to Gibson – They were quickly losing market share to Fender guitars who’s instruments were seen as modern and more affordable. In an attempt to regain footing in the market, Gibson introduced the radical “Firebird” model in 1963. This line of guitars featured a totally different mini Humbucker that was substantially more “Fender-ish”.

During the 1950’s and 1960’s there were two primary different schools of thought on pickup construction. On one hand you had Fender who had the magnet directly in the middle of the coil of wire, and on the other hand you had Gibson who used a steel pole in the middle of the coil of wire with the magnet mounted beneath. The ultimate difference being that on a fender the strings were mounted right above the actual magnet, while in the Gibson there was magnetized steel directly under the strings. Each method produced completely different results; the Fender pickup was bright and twangy with bite (Think Telecaster) while the Gibson style was fatter with smoother.

The Firebird mini still used the exact same bobbins – except that the steel cores that were normally found in the bobbins were replaced by magnets! By removing the steel poles from the pickup and replacing them directly with magnets the sound of the pickup dramatically changed. The magnets were now directly in the core of the coil very similar to the fender pickups – This gave the Firebird Mini a more “Fender-y” sound – A brighter, snappy Humbucker with twang to it. Because of this, it is a popular option on many Tele style guitars as it can have some twang, but still buck the hum.

Since the pole screws on the cover were gone, the nickel silver cover was flat and clean without any holes. The earliest versions of the pickup (1963) had plain enamel wire, but pretty much immediately switched to Poly wire.

 

[edit]Johnny Smith Floating

 

After a falling out Guild in the latter half of the 1950’s, guitarist Johnny Smith was approached by Gibson Guitars in 1960-1961. Gibson developed a new signature model called the “Gibson Johnny Smith” which featured a rather unique mini Humbucker.

Aside from the fact that the pickup mounted to end of the fretboard, what made it unique was that it was really the first mini to start moving towards the Fender construction style. However, unlike the firebird pickup, there was only one magnet. The magnet was located in the “Slug” Coil, and was connected to the “screw” coil by a steel plate which transfer the magnetic field to the screws What’s special about this pickup is that it is sort of a gateway pickup – It’s halfway between a fender style and a Gibson style. The magnet directly under the strings on the slug coil creates a distinct attack and clarity, while the screw coil retains the long envelope of traditional Gibson Humbuckers.

 

]Bill Lawrence “Side Winder”

 

The last design is one that I will just briefly touch on. Bill Lawrence is a very famous pickup designer, and has many unique patents to his name. Throughout his career, it’s fairly evident that he likes two specific things – Ceramic Magnets, and Side Winder pickups. A sidewinder is a pickup where the two coils do not face upwards, but are rather placed on their sides. A magnet is still placed in the middle of each coil, but the magnet connects to a steel pole of some form in the center of the pickup.

There are many pickup makers, and players that really like side winder pickups – but it’s a design that I’m not crazy about in this pickup, so I’m not going to devote any more time to it. I mention it for historical sake only.

 

Source — Matthew Larrivée

[JackBaruth]

The whole thing is endlessly fascinating. If Mr. Larrivee is correct, then Gibson developed the mini-hum for no particular reason other than: to differentiate the cheapies? To save money on materials? Huh. He certainly has more details than the other accounts I've read; not that details == credibility but in general if everybody's trying honestly to tell the truth the most detailed account is usually the most right.

[kidsmoke]

well, developing less expensive variations of products to expand a product line isn't that radical, which is what I glean from the first couple sentences of the "original" paragraph.

 

Seems a plausible progression, but I certainly can't speak to it's legitimacy. Next years barn discussion topic with Ren, assuming we've exhausted the "tenon" issue!

[big bob]

I have mini hums on my 170, they are Jason Lallor, they are mounted with a plastic housing that makes them the exact same size as a p90 ( body mount p90 not dog ear)

[bolero]

hey doesn't Neil Young have a firebird pup mounted the bridge in his originally P90 Les paul?

 

so that would indicate a P90 & firebird pup are interchangeable???

[H]

hey doesn't Neil Young have a firebird pup mounted the bridge in his originally P90 Les paul?

 

so that would indicate a P90 & firebird pup are interchangeable???

 

The minibucker will fit in a P90 route but not vice-versa, as far as I'm aware.

[bolero]

So I'm a bit confused...is a mini humbucker different or the same as a fire bird pup?

 

I always thought they were different ?

[big bob]

Same thing...

[eljay]

not same thing according to curtis novak:

 

http://curtisnovak.com/pickups/firebird.shtml

 

i have these in my 357.

[JohnCovach]

Lollar agrees, though his pickups are not replicas. I have them in my Firebird and they're great--way better than the ceramic ones Gibson puts in these guitars.

 

http://www.lollarguitars.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=humbucker-pickups

[DetroitBlues]

I think it's a P90 Soapbar route with a bracket to fit a mini hum...

[H]

Wow. That's pretty slick. I have no idea why but the words "murder weapon" came to mind when I saw the pic.

LOL Thanks for the compliment. Do you do badly on Rorschach tests?

[High Flying Bird]

LOL Thanks for the compliment. Do you do badly on Rorschach tests?

 

I think, "the bloke," as you folks say is thinking about a killer lead or perhaps killing his wife. See how much he is willing to pay.....

 

Here is what you kill with! I don't know the old hippy or the redneck........

 

[Number8]

LOL Thanks for the compliment. Do you do badly on Rorschach tests?

 

At one point perhaps...but I'm feeling much better now.

[bolero]

allright...I just fired off a note to Curtis Novak asking whether I can fit P90's & firebird pups into the same sized route....or how to do it

[kidsmoke]

The LP deluxes are LP's with P90 routes, but mini's installed. WHY they did this remains a mystery, but not whether or not they did it.

 

While a true "firebird" pup may vary in construction, it's a standard mini humbucker size.

 

This is what is used when installing a Mini in a P90 route: http://www.guitarfet...EAM_p_1487.html

 

Eljay: what dimensions did Heritage use for your p'up routes?

 

bone stock '72 Deluxe, for reference

 

same guitar...

[bolero]

hey that's slick...thanks kidsmoke!!

 

so it sounds like:

 

1.if I get a gtr routed for P90's, I can put mini hums or firebird pups in with that adaptor

 

2. however a P90 will not fit in a gtr routed for minihums/firebird pups

[kidsmoke]

hey that's slick...thanks kidsmoke!!

 

so it sounds like:

 

1.if I get a gtr routed for P90's, I can put mini hums or firebird pups in with that adaptor

 

2. however a P90 will not fit in a gtr routed for minihums/firebird pups

 

that's my understanding. You can adapt a small p'up to any larger opening, but you can't shoehorn a larger p'up into a smaller opening.

 

they also make adaptors, although less common, for a mini- hum to a larger hum sized opening.

 

So that's an idea. Take a guitar routed for PAF humbuckers and use cheap adaptors to try the different pickups before spec'ing out a build.

 

I know two pro players, both Gibson centric jobbers, (one pictured with his guitar in hand above- with the original '72 hums still installed).

 

Neither of them care for the mini hums that came in the Deluxes, so they've written of mini-humbuckers as not for them. (in fact that cherry burst LP is for sale if anyone is interested)

 

Consider the difference in construction between the original Firebirds and the LP Deluxes. Pretty significant. Furthermore, based on Larrivée's musings on the subject, maybe the Deluxe era mini's were different than the '62 Firebird variety....who knows.

 

What kind of guitar are you thinking of putting these in bolero?